Peeing... Hear me out on this!

[brimstone1392]

Okay... I know I'm not the kind of person to create a meaningful discussion from a simple question. Especially while drunk (spoiler alert!) But this time, there's a question that has been bothering me for a while and I have to try.

I'm a believer in evolution... Not darwinian, but that's another topic all-together. I understand why animals (let's use the example of dogs here) pee on trees/signposts/fireplugs... you get the point. But this is where the animal/human boundary get's a little TOO convoluted for me.

If we are all evolved animals, then why do we "hold it in." Seriously. We've all been in a position where we could have easily excused ourselves, called for a temporary moratorium on the conversation, or just plain "gone" without notice and spreading our "scent" further and easier.

So why do we, in the evolutionary/animalistic sense? Heck, why do we hold-it-in while playing a game we know we can easily just PAUSE and continue on with, while at home, without effectual interruption?

I'm just looking for a discussion on the evolutionary/instinctual responses that brought us to this position. I mean, I understand fully why we are attracted to those of certain persuasions/different attitudes. (Opposites attract for the same reason that opposite magnetic poles do!) but the "reason" behind this particularly-human evolutionary trait eludes me.

Any insight/scientifically based opinion would help form a more complete personal opinion on my part.

 

[SilentCom]

People will often hold it in if they don't have much of a choice or because they are experiencing some form of pleasure that they don't want to stop, such as video games. A lot of it has to do with reasoning. You weigh your options when you decide to hold it in or not. You take into account how full your bladder is (by how bad you need to go) and measure it up to the consequences of going or holding. Some settings, like public places you will not alleviate yourself even if you needed to go bad. Instead you will likely seek out a place to alleviate yourself, knowing that if you piss on the ground in front of a bunch of people you will face social stigma.

Overall, I think it has more to do with reasoning than evolution.

 

[Altorin]

We used to be hunters. Used to laying in wait for prey. We couldn't be getting up every 5 minutes to pee. Also helps explain why men are better at holding it than women.
Nowadays, people are just lazy. Getting up, stopping your game, going to the bathroom, trying to aim, washing your hands, coming back, all too much hassle. May as well hold it in, you would probably be finished with that level in another hour or 5 right?
[/talking out my ass]

it also was about not spreading your scent and alerting your prey.

 

[Irridium]

We hold it in because we don't want to piss on ourselves and look like fools.

Also, if we are basically still animals, then we try to attract mates. And you won't attract anyone by pissing everywhere.

 

[Qizx]

I... I don't know what to say, as an evolutionary biologist I'm a little flabbergasted at the whole point of this thread however I will make a meaningful contribution. How come dogs are cute? How come cats are more aloof? It all has to do with societies of both humans and animals (Yes animals have societies), there are times when dogs hold in their urine as well, so we can't count that out.

 

[brimstone1392]

I know this thread seemed like a bad idea in the first place... But I hold true to my first question and ask another:

Is there a SCIENTIFIC (i.e. following the scientific method or what remains of it) study on this? I personally have NEVER witnessed a dog "hold it in" or any other animal for that matter and would LOVE to get such a point of view on the subject.

I know it might not make sense to most, but if we don't delve into the depths of our own "instinct," even in such a potentially trivial manner, then can we call anything we discover actual "insights" into our own nature? I venture the answer to that question is no.

Just saying...

(EDIT)
didn't want to double post, but a last minute thought here:
As far as videogames are concerned, is this something designers plan for/incorporate? Should it be? Damn... I might have just opened up a whole new line of thinking in the game design world. Imagine WOW with occasional enemies asking if you need a "bathroom break" before attacking... Would that, in itself, make you "need-to-go?"

 

[Deshin]

Is there a SCIENTIFIC (i.e. following the scientific method or what remains of it) study on this? I personally have NEVER witnessed a dog "hold it in" or any other animal for that matter and would LOVE to get such a point of view on the subject.

What do you think it's doing when it's scratching on the door to be let out? It's busting for a piss but holding it in because it knows pissing on the carpet = newspaper twatting.

 

[WolfEdge]

I know this thread seemed like a bad idea in the first place... But I hold true to my first question and ask another:

Is there a SCIENTIFIC (i.e. following the scientific method or what remains of it) study on this? I personally have NEVER witnessed a dog "hold it in" or any other animal for that matter and would LOVE to get such a point of view on the subject.

I know it might not make sense to most, but if we don't delve into the depths of our own "instinct," even in such a potentially trivial manner, then can we call anything we discover actual "insights" into our own nature? I venture the answer to that question is no.

Just saying...

Sure you have. I see it all the time, and it has little to do with evolution. It's all about psychology. A dog can be house-broken, that is to say, CONDITIONED to only relieve itself outside, or on newspaper or wherever. The same is done with humans when we are potty-trained. Ever wonder why staring at a toilet can suddenly MAKE you want to urinate? That's why.

It has nothing to do with instinct, as a person must be trained to "hold it in".

 

[brimstone1392]

Now, "house-breaking" a pet actually proves my theory has validity. If you have to train the pet to do something, then it isn't a part of their natural behavior.

C'mon.... I can't be the only one that understands that!

(SRY... If I am then I obviously didn't explain it right. Give me a few to try and think of a better way to put it!)

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

In most animals there's a conflict between personal values and societal values. Some tribes in Africa find it perfectly acceptable to defecate/urinate in public, but hold their hunger until they can eat in public.

Once you can withhold personal values, you can apply them to other things, like entertainment values - Hence why we can drink huge amounts of coke at the cinema and not go off like fountains.

(EDIT)
didn't want to double post, but a last minute thought here:
As far as videogames are concerned, is this something designers plan for/incorporate? Should it be? Damn... I might have just opened up a whole new line of thinking in the game design world. Imagine WOW with occasional enemies asking if you need a "bathroom break" before attacking... Would that, in itself, make you "need-to-go?"

What do you think the idea of the ammo storage rooms just before the big boss fights are for?

 

[Saelune]

I know this thread seemed like a bad idea in the first place... But I hold true to my first question and ask another:

Is there a SCIENTIFIC (i.e. following the scientific method or what remains of it) study on this? I personally have NEVER witnessed a dog "hold it in" or any other animal for that matter and would LOVE to get such a point of view on the subject.

I know it might not make sense to most, but if we don't delve into the depths of our own "instinct," even in such a potentially trivial manner, then can we call anything we discover actual "insights" into our own nature? I venture the answer to that question is no.

Just saying...

(EDIT)
didn't want to double post, but a last minute thought here:
As far as videogames are concerned, is this something designers plan for/incorporate? Should it be? Damn... I might have just opened up a whole new line of thinking in the game design world. Imagine WOW with occasional enemies asking if you need a "bathroom break" before attacking... Would that, in itself, make you "need-to-go?"

How do you know you never have seen a dog hold it in? Maybe dogs dont make it as visible as humans.

 

[WolfEdge]

Now, "house-breaking" a pet actually proves my theory has validity. If you have to train the pet to do something, then it isn't a part of their natural behavior.

C'mon.... I can't be the only one that understands that!

(SRY... If I am then I obviously didn't explain it right. Give me a few to try and think of a better way to put it!)

I don't understand. You asked why we evolved this trait, and I'm telling you it is neither a trait nor a product of evolution. It's simply a conditioned response to a specific stimulus. If you were to remove a child from civilization and raise it without teaching it to do so, it wouldn't hold its urine. It would simply go when and where it pleased. If you're asking WHY we bother to go through this process, it's because nobody likes rolling around in their own droppings. If you're asking why we wait ad hold it, it's a simple judgment call. Human beings have a psychological desire for "closure", be it through completion of a specific task before starting a different one, or what have you.

 

[TehCookie]

Animals hold it in all the time. Yeah they'll take a leak outside but as soon as they come inside there's another gallon of piss coming out. They do not make urine that fast, so the only explanation I could come up with is that they don't completely empty their tank.

As for humans, it's because of our society. Why do cats bury their poop? Some people say it's instinct but the litter of kittens I had must of not been that smart since their mom had to show them.

 

[similar.squirrel]

We used to be hunters. Used to laying in wait for prey. We couldn't be getting up every 5 minutes to pee. Also helps explain why men are better at holding it than women.
Nowadays, people are just lazy. Getting up, stopping your game, going to the bathroom, trying to aim, washing your hands, coming back, all too much hassle. May as well hold it in, you would probably be finished with that level in another hour or 5 right?
[/talking out my ass]

No, this seems pretty spot-on.

 

[brimstone1392]

I don't understand. You asked why we evolved this trait, and I'm telling you it is neither a trait nor a product of evolution. It's simply a conditioned response to a specific stimulus. If you were to remove a child from civilization and raise it without teaching it to do so, it wouldn't hold its urine. It would simply go when and where it pleased. If you're asking WHY we bother to go through this process, it's because nobody likes rolling around in their own droppings. If you're asking why we wait ad hold it, it's a simple judgment call. Human beings have a psychological desire for "closure", be it through completion of a specific task before starting a different one, or what have you.

You see, THIS is the kind of feedback I was talking about. Well, to the point that I can respond with a post that adheres to my original. What you said about raising a child removed from civilization: how do you know that? Has anyone ever done that? In the few studies of this that I can find (thank you porn finder... I mean internet,) no one has actually done this.

And we can't. It wouldn't be humane. SO DON'T DO IT. My point here is that if we can't explore what it means to be human until we address these problems.

But, that being said, THANK YOU! You have undoubtedly stirred up opinions on both sides of the argument that I can use to further my thought-process. Keep'em comming!

 

[Merkavar]

well cause we have this thing called sanitation,politeness and a whole bunch of other reasons for us to hold on till be find a toilet or a tree.

and holding it in while gaming makes sense to me. holding it in doesnt hurt so why stop enjoying the game.

 

[brimstone1392]

to Merkavar: (can I call you "merky"?)

"holding doesn't hurt"

But... BUT... letting it go ALWAYS feels better. If we were not meant to do so / if it wasn't adventagious to our developement... then WHY is it so? C'mon... anyone whose taken a "piss" as a guy HAS to know what I Mean!

 

[WolfEdge]

I don't understand. You asked why we evolved this trait, and I'm telling you it is neither a trait nor a product of evolution. It's simply a conditioned response to a specific stimulus. If you were to remove a child from civilization and raise it without teaching it to do so, it wouldn't hold its urine. It would simply go when and where it pleased. If you're asking WHY we bother to go through this process, it's because nobody likes rolling around in their own droppings. If you're asking why we wait ad hold it, it's a simple judgment call. Human beings have a psychological desire for "closure", be it through completion of a specific task before starting a different one, or what have you.

You see, THIS is the kind of feedback I was talking about. Well, to the point that I can respond with a post that adheres to my original. What you said about raising a child removed from civilization: how do you know that? Has anyone ever done that? In the few studies of this that I can find (thank you porn finder... I mean internet,) no one has actually done this.

And we can't. It wouldn't be humane. SO DON'T DO IT. My point here is that if we can't explore what it means to be human until we address these problems.

But, that being said, THANK YOU! You have undoubtedly stirred up opinions on both sides of the argument that I can use to further my thought-process. Keep'em comming!

Actually, there HAS been documentation from several different sources throughout the years of this phenomenon. The occasional "Wild Children" story that crops up from time to time in various psychology text books will tell you that, when these children were discovered, not only were they completely feral, but that their IQs were significantly reduced from lack of human contact. They couldn't speak, they couldn't process high-level thought, and they certainly weren't house-broken. This is because human beings, like many other creatures, are social by nature: we learn and develop through exposure to other humans, and when we don't receive that exposure at key development points, many of our decidedly human characteristics tank, and we are reduced to primitive shadows of ourselves.

As far as your point, all living things hold significant similarities to one another, and thus, by comparing, say, Pavlov's Dogs to human psychology, we ARE able to attain a deeper understanding of our own evolutionary history. Also, as an aside, you talk as though scientists have never performed gross and inhumane studies on other human beings in order to extract important data, and to that I say, open ANY psychology textbook, and you'll quickly learn otherwise.

 

[Latinidiot]

I know this thread seemed like a bad idea in the first place... But I hold true to my first question and ask another:

Is there a SCIENTIFIC (i.e. following the scientific method or what remains of it) study on this? I personally have NEVER witnessed a dog "hold it in" or any other animal for that matter and would LOVE to get such a point of view on the subject.

I know it might not make sense to most, but if we don't delve into the depths of our own "instinct," even in such a potentially trivial manner, then can we call anything we discover actual "insights" into our own nature? I venture the answer to that question is no.

Just saying...

(EDIT)
didn't want to double post, but a last minute thought here:
As far as videogames are concerned, is this something designers plan for/incorporate? Should it be? Damn... I might have just opened up a whole new line of thinking in the game design world. Imagine WOW with occasional enemies asking if you need a "bathroom break" before attacking... Would that, in itself, make you "need-to-go?"

If there were societies that simpoly ped and shat where they stood, they all died from Cholera. The survivors learned that shit= death, so keep it away from where I sleep and eat.