Physics animation - can there be too much?

[hanselthecaretaker]

Was thinking about this after watching a pretty interesting presentation [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7S-_vuoKgR4] on Uncharted 4, and then following it up by a more informal one [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i78ds3bJFDE] and another [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zmuJyykzLwI] for Red Dead Redemption 2.

I love all the attention to detail, but it does admittedly make the gameplay itself more tedious. I haven?t played Uncharted 4 in a couple years but I?m curious to see how its controls feel next to Red Dead Redemption 2?s.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Well you can roll in Uncharted 4, and the jump is worth a damn, so in general it plays nicer than RDR2. I liked all the sliding and swinging as well. Movement was 1:1 responsive as far as I could feel. I liked the punch-down takedowns, though the brawling didn't feel as tight as in Uncharted 3.

In general I'd say the animation in Uncharted is inoffensive - you get Nate wincing behind cover and the like but nothing that ever intereferes with gameplay. Character snaps right to attention as soon as you push a button.

Movement's definitely slower in RDR2 and feels literally weighed down. Having said that, aside from the occasional riding hiccup (ie. horsey trips on a pebble, sends you into orbit) it was the excessive animation rather than the physics themselves that got me fuming towards the hundredth hour. I must've added up a few hours worth of Arthur tying or untying something, kneeling down or standing up, picking up or dropping down, rifling back and forth catalogues, pushing a prompt and watching the character circle around X looking for the right angle to interact with it, etc.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

Uncharted controls great. Red Dead Redemption controls like shit. All of Rockstar's games control like shit.

For games where shooting is one of the main ways of interaction with the world, they have terrible shooting controls and mechanics.

I actually wish that there was less shooting in Red Dead 2. There are missions where you shoot like 100 people, and not only does it not feel appropriate for the era (where the fuck in the wild west would you even FIND 100 lawmen in a single town) but it also doesn't feel very good in terms of control and gameplay.

I never feel like I'm actually in full control of Arthur. It feels more like I'm pointing him in a direction and really hoping that the game's context controls and lock on system guess correctly about what I'm trying to do and who I'm trying to shoot.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I liked the punch-down takedowns, though the brawling didn't feel as tight as in Uncharted 3.

Are you talking about those scripted fight sections, because man, I really didn't like those. Same with the Nadine sections in 4. Though oddly the ones in The Lost Legacy weren't that bad.

OT: Can't say I ever felt my actions interupted by physics in Uncharted 4. There were a couple of moments where a scripted explosion would cause a scripted recoil in Nate, but that was about it. Control overall was pretty crisp.

And yeah, I was too busy wrestling with the slow-ass interaction prompts in RDR2 to really be bothered by any physics based shenanigans. GTA5 had a bunch of physics tied to your character as well, and it never bothered me too much. I actually liked just jumping into people and flopping over them, it was a good way of attacking bystanders witout attracting the cops.

 

[Squilookle]

RDR2 doesn't have shit controls because there's too much physics in there, it's shit because of the way Rockstar wants it to control. Havok physics games generally tend to be pretty awesome for example, but exactly how awesome all comes down to how the developers use their engines.

 

[stroopwafel]

There is no game that looks as good as RDR2 where literally every frame could be a painting so having long-winded and stiff animation cycles adds to the game's gravitas and painterly quality. Sure, if you play it like a pure action game there are probably better examples but it's pretty obvious RDR2's intent is to immerse you in it's world, and given the breathtaking sense of place and attention to detail it certainly fulfills that purpose. Animations feel like they have 'weight' at all times and this extends to the shoot-outs where enemies viscerally respond to bullet fire accentuated by impressive particle effects.

Controls can feel cumbersome or unresponsive with precise positioning or taking cover but when it falls into place it's unbelievably graphic and properly cinematic without being scripted(which, I think RDR2 is the first game that pulls this off). Other games might have tighter controls but no other game simply looks this good when the action actually unfolds and yeah, with graphics as unbelievable as RDR2 I do think it adds to the overall fun factor. If you consider the high complexity of RDR2 it's also an absolute technical marvel and cements Rockstar as absolute wizards of their craft.

My only gripe would be that the linearity of the mission structures often doesn't do the game's amazing systems justice. Like the other day I decided to just fuck around in the game world and it's just unbelievable how every kind of variable is accounted for. From the smallest detail in the environment to enemy and NPC engagements the game pushes back like it's a life sim instead of a game. Graphics, gameplay mechanics, sound design, music; everything just works in tandem. The wildlife in particular is unlike anything I have ever seen. However none of this you really notice when only going through the missions, which are still bogged down by having to adhere to a straightforward narrative. Which I guess is saved by the fact that the game's story is quite good and Arthur's character arc probably being one of the most interesting and mature around but it's still a shame as the game is so much better outside this rigid structure.

Uncharted is actually the opposite imo, offering no freedom for it's scripted setpieces and shoot-outs that feel like you and enemies are made of paper figures. The story is also nowhere near RDR's league with espescially Nate being as annoying as his stupid hair.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

I liked the punch-down takedowns, though the brawling didn't feel as tight as in Uncharted 3.

Are you talking about those scripted fight sections, because man, I really didn't like those. Same with the Nadine sections in 4. Though oddly the ones in The Lost Legacy weren't that bad.

I hated the Nadine fights. There's a fine line between playing through a moment of calculated helplessness to illustrate a point and then just humiliating yourself for dangling keys over and over. Fighting Nadine was definitely the latter. It was just so immediately obvious Nate (or Sam) were never going to land a punch on a woman, never mind she's trying to kill them.

I specifically meant brawling with average mooks. 3 just felt snappier, tighter, more responsive in general. Commands took priority over long-winded animations. 4 felt a bit more haphazard, slower, like the game's holding you back. And I also missed the ability to throw back grenades.

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

There's only one objective answer to this

 

[CaitSeith]

It all depends on what kind of feedback the game intends to give to the player.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I hated the Nadine fights. There's a fine line between playing through a moment of calculated helplessness to illustrate a point and then just humiliating yourself for dangling keys over and over. Fighting Nadine was definitely the latter. It was just so immediately obvious Nate (or Sam) were never going to land a punch on a woman, never mind she's trying to kill them.

There's also that first prison brawl right after the orphanage section. With Nadine you do land punches on her, it's just that it's scripted in a way that you rarely do. And all of it in service of making you lose. I'm okay with Nadine being mega ultra ***** who wipes the floor with you, but implement it in a way that it feels natural to control. That's why the second fight with Sam is a bit better (only a bit though), because you are allowed some of your regular movement, like running, climbing, and swinging.

I hate when a game cordons me off into a different control type like that, where all of a sudden it's like I'm in a fighting game, eventhough I would otherwise be able to run and jump around. The Boss fight against Lazaravich in Uncharted 2 for example gives you full control over Nate, it doesn't take away certain abilities because 'Oh we don't want you to do that here, sorry'. Don't do that videogame.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

If RDR2 controls like RDR or really any other Rockstar game, it definitely doesn't control better than Uncharted 4. The problem with Uncharted's controls don't really have anything to do with animation or physics; the main issue has always been circle for both roll and cover, along with poor shoulder switching, bad aim-assist, and no aim acceleration.

RDR2 doesn't have shit controls because there's too much physics in there, it's shit because of the way Rockstar wants it to control.

Basically this, Rockstar prioritizes animation over player input.

At pretty much the 17:20 mark, Raycevick talks about the animation issues in Max Payne 3 is his video titled Max Payne 3... 6 Years Later [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X79uF_EYDnI].

 

[Silvanus]

Well, Nathan Drake's physics-responsive chest hair doesn't actually detract, so it's not really 'too much' exactly. It's just entirely unnecessary.

Well, I suppose you could make an argument that the devs could have spent that time doing something worthwhile instead, but that's quite a nebulous point.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

I hated the Nadine fights. There's a fine line between playing through a moment of calculated helplessness to illustrate a point and then just humiliating yourself for dangling keys over and over. Fighting Nadine was definitely the latter. It was just so immediately obvious Nate (or Sam) were never going to land a punch on a woman, never mind she's trying to kill them.

There's also that first prison brawl right after the orphanage section. With Nadine you do land punches on her, it's just that it's scripted in a way that you rarely do. And all of it in service of making you lose. I'm okay with Nadine being mega ultra ***** who wipes the floor with you, but implement it in a way that it feels natural to control. That's why the second fight with Sam is a bit better (only a bit though), because you are allowed some of your regular movement, like running, climbing, and swinging.

I just checked and either I'm misremembering or the fights aren't as scripted as I thought, cause Nate apparently can punch back when he's trying to escape Nadine's grip. As far as I remember the only two hits you land are a headbutt in the first fight and plunging through the floor with her in the second.

I hate when a game cordons me off into a different control type like that, where all of a sudden it's like I'm in a fighting game, eventhough I would otherwise be able to run and jump around. The Boss fight against Lazaravich in Uncharted 2 for example gives you full control over Nate, it doesn't take away certain abilities because 'Oh we don't want you to do that here, sorry'. Don't do that videogame.

Well it never got any better than that. Atoq was a bunch of cover-based shooting leading to essentially a QTE, and then Talbot and Rafe are essentially the last-minute brawlers with freshly minted rules. I guess the problem is you need to come up with an excuse for the boss to take unusually high damage for the final fight to play by the same rules as the rest of the game. It makes sense Lazarevich can take so much damage after drinking *that* but everybody else is just a regular human being with no more health than a mook. Arguably Talbot has *less* health than that since it technically takes a single bullet.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Well it never got any better than that. Atoq was a bunch of cover-based shooting leading to essentially a QTE, and then Talbot and Rafe are essentially the last-minute brawlers with freshly minted rules. I guess the problem is you need to come up with an excuse for the boss to take unusually high damage for the final fight to play by the same rules as the rest of the game. It makes sense Lazarevich can take so much damage after drinking *that* but everybody else is just a regular human being with no more health than a mook. Arguably Talbot has *less* health than that since it technically takes a single bullet.

I think Lost Legacy strikes a somewhat happy medium for its final Boss encounter.

Spoiler: Spoiler in case you haven't played it yet.

You're fighting a regular guy, but he's pretty tough, making it a team-up fight gives it some more flair despite being scripted, it's also relatively short, and it's less a climax as it is an end-point to the climax that is the train sequence.

Of all the Uncharted endings, Lost Legacy handles it probably the best.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

There is no game that looks as good as RDR2 where literally every frame could be a painting so having long-winded and stiff animation cycles adds to the game's gravitas and painterly quality. Sure, if you play it like a pure action game there are probably better examples but it's pretty obvious RDR2's intent is to immerse you in it's world, and given the breathtaking sense of place and attention to detail it certainly fulfills that purpose. Animations feel like they have 'weight' at all times and this extends to the shoot-outs where enemies viscerally respond to bullet fire accentuated by impressive particle effects.

Controls can feel cumbersome or unresponsive with precise positioning or taking cover but when it falls into place it's unbelievably graphic and properly cinematic without being scripted(which, I think RDR2 is the first game that pulls this off). Other games might have tighter controls but no other game simply looks this good when the action actually unfolds and yeah, with graphics as unbelievable as RDR2 I do think it adds to the overall fun factor. If you consider the high complexity of RDR2 it's also an absolute technical marvel and cements Rockstar as absolute wizards of their craft.

My only gripe would be that the linearity of the mission structures often doesn't do the game's amazing systems justice. Like the other day I decided to just fuck around in the game world and it's just unbelievable how every kind of variable is accounted for. From the smallest detail in the environment to enemy and NPC engagements the game pushes back like it's a life sim instead of a game. Graphics, gameplay mechanics, sound design, music; everything just works in tandem. The wildlife in particular is unlike anything I have ever seen. However none of this you really notice when only going through the missions, which are still bogged down by having to adhere to a straightforward narrative. Which I guess is saved by the fact that the game's story is quite good and Arthur's character arc probably being one of the most interesting and mature around but it's still a shame as the game is so much better outside this rigid structure.

Uncharted is actually the opposite imo, offering no freedom for it's scripted setpieces and shoot-outs that feel like you and enemies are made of paper figures. The story is also nowhere near RDR's league with espescially Nate being as annoying as his stupid hair.

In terms of action/adventure games I?ve had more fun with Uncharted as a series; especially 3 & 4 where the latter feels the most refined in terms of gunplay and supporting player mechanics. Like Sinji said though they should?ve kept the grenade throwback. Such a cool move that makes sense and increases the tense risk/reward aspect of gameplay. UC4 is also as open as it needs to (or should) be without ruining the pacing. The Jeep sections were a fun romp, but there could?ve been more interesting hidden areas with winch physics puzzles to increase an incentive to explore.

In Red Dead to me the fun is mostly had by experimenting with npc?s and seeing how much you can get away with. The actual story-driven missions are very rarely as entertaining largely for the reasons you mentioned, which ironically enough an ex Naughty Dog dev commented on. [https://www.onlysp.com/red-dead-redemption-2-last-of-us-director-bruce-straley-player-freedom/] Uncharted at the very least never betrayed the nature of its design by lulling the player into a false sense of freedom.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Like Sinji said though they should?ve kept the grenade throwback.

Johnny Novgorod actually said that.

In Red Dead to me the fun is mostly had by experimenting with npc?s and seeing how much you can get away with. The actual story-driven missions are very rarely as entertaining largely for the reasons you mentioned, which ironically enough an ex Naughty Dog dev commented on. [https://www.onlysp.com/red-dead-redemption-2-last-of-us-director-bruce-straley-player-freedom/] Uncharted at the very least never betrayed the nature of its design by lulling the player into a false sense of freedom.

It's nice to hear from Bruce Straley again. It seriously bummed me out that he left, he was ND's best game director. But apparently working on Uncharted 4 completely roasted him. It seems he didn't even want to work on it, but since Amy Henning and Justin Richmond were wiffing it the heads of Naughty Dog sorta forced him to salvage it with Druckmann. And that was right after he finished The Last of Us, which itself was like a 4-year long production.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Like Sinji said though they should?ve kept the grenade throwback.

Johnny Novgorod actually said that.

In Red Dead to me the fun is mostly had by experimenting with npc?s and seeing how much you can get away with. The actual story-driven missions are very rarely as entertaining largely for the reasons you mentioned, which ironically enough an ex Naughty Dog dev commented on. [https://www.onlysp.com/red-dead-redemption-2-last-of-us-director-bruce-straley-player-freedom/] Uncharted at the very least never betrayed the nature of its design by lulling the player into a false sense of freedom.

It's nice to hear from Bruce Straley again. It seriously bummed me out that he left, he was ND's best game director. But apparently working on Uncharted 4 completely roasted him. It seems he didn't even want to work on it, but since Amy Henning and Justin Richmond were wiffing it the heads of Naughty Dog sorta forced him to salvage it with Druckmann. And that was right after he finished The Last of Us, which itself was like a 4-year long production.

Ahh my bad.

Even with the way UC4 turned out, I think it still managed to outdo its predecessors from a narrative perspective, simply because it told a more grounded story. Amy Hennig recently shed some light [https://comicbook.com/gaming/2019/02/24/ps4-uncharted-4-nadine-flashback-scenes/] on the game?s direction when she was still involved. I didn?t mind the flashback stuff, and Nadine was mostly just a sub-villain of sorts, but I was able to enjoy Lost Legacy more after seeing her in Uncharted 4. Never really paid much attention to her involvement the first time I played, but am currently on a Crushing run at the auction house so she?s not too far off.