[Politics] House Panel holds Trump Officials in Contempt over US Census Documents.

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Census controversy: House panel votes to hold Trump officials in contempt

William Barr and Wilbur Ross face congressional action over refusal to turn over materials relating to changes in national count.

A congressional committee led by Democrats voted to hold the US attorney general, William Barr, and the commerce secretary, Wilbur Ross, in contempt on Wednesday for their refusal to turn over materials relating to proposed controversial changes in how the country counts its citizens.

The 24-15 vote in the House oversight committee came after Donald Trump asserted executive privilege over documents shedding light on the Trump administration?s push to include a question about US citizenship on the 2020 census, in a move that was met with disbelief by former justice department officials.

"This is ridiculous," tweeted Elie Honig, a former federal prosecutor from the southern district of New York. "Executive privilege is not some magic wand the President gets to wave to hide anything he wants, anytime he wants."

But the current clash, over a Trump administration effort to add a question about US citizenship to the 2020 census, could have direct consequences for representative government and a growing divide between elected officials in Washington and the citizens they purport to represent.

The House committee, chaired by Elijah Cummings, has been trying to learn the motives behind a move by the Trump administration to add a question about US citizenship to the upcoming 2020 census.

Two weeks ago, it was revealed that a deceased Republican consultant had studied the citizenship question in Texas and concluded it would be "advantageous to Republicans and non-Hispanic whites".

The Trump administration?s move to include the citizenship question on the census is the subject of a legal challenge currently before the US supreme court, which is expected to rule soon on whether such a question can be included in the survey.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/12/census-controversy-house-panel-votes-to-hold-trump-officials-in-contempt

Why would "executive privilege" ever apply to documents regarding the US census? It isn't like the US census has ever been considered "classified information" before. It is seriously messed up that this administration thinks that executive privilege exists simply to shield the president and his administration from any fallout from their own decisions. Why would executive privilege ever possibly apply to information on why they want to add a question to the census?

 

[Trunkage]

I knew those statistician leading the census were up to something. The Great Leader will save us from their math

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

what's the question, reptilian children? this mystery is not a fun mystery. like an anonymous pervert caller.

 

[CaitSeith]

Census controversy: House panel votes to hold Trump officials in contempt

William Barr and Wilbur Ross face congressional action over refusal to turn over materials relating to changes in national count.

A congressional committee led by Democrats voted to hold the US attorney general, William Barr, and the commerce secretary, Wilbur Ross, in contempt on Wednesday for their refusal to turn over materials relating to proposed controversial changes in how the country counts its citizens.

The 24-15 vote in the House oversight committee came after Donald Trump asserted executive privilege over documents shedding light on the Trump administration?s push to include a question about US citizenship on the 2020 census, in a move that was met with disbelief by former justice department officials.

"This is ridiculous," tweeted Elie Honig, a former federal prosecutor from the southern district of New York. "Executive privilege is not some magic wand the President gets to wave to hide anything he wants, anytime he wants."

But the current clash, over a Trump administration effort to add a question about US citizenship to the 2020 census, could have direct consequences for representative government and a growing divide between elected officials in Washington and the citizens they purport to represent.

The House committee, chaired by Elijah Cummings, has been trying to learn the motives behind a move by the Trump administration to add a question about US citizenship to the upcoming 2020 census.

Two weeks ago, it was revealed that a deceased Republican consultant had studied the citizenship question in Texas and concluded it would be "advantageous to Republicans and non-Hispanic whites".

The Trump administration?s move to include the citizenship question on the census is the subject of a legal challenge currently before the US supreme court, which is expected to rule soon on whether such a question can be included in the survey.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/12/census-controversy-house-panel-votes-to-hold-trump-officials-in-contempt

Why would "executive privilege" ever apply to documents regarding the US census? It isn't like the US census has ever been considered "classified information" before. It is seriously messed up that this administration thinks that executive privilege exists simply to shield the president and his administration from any fallout from their own decisions. Why would executive privilege ever possibly apply to information on why they want to add a question to the census?

The only reason I can think of is that the reveal would anger the people who support them, or people whom they are afraid of.

 

[CaitSeith]

The reveal seems like something that would make things more difficult for Pence to exploit his position as VPOTUS.

 

[Silent Protagonist]

I have no doubt that the administration had selfish and political motives for adding the question to the census, but isn't the question they added literally "Is this person a citizen of the United States?"? That seems like a pretty reasonable question to have on the census and I'm honestly surprised it wasn't already. Trying to use executive privilege to protect yourself from political embarrassment is definitely scummy if not outright criminal, I just don't understand why the question needs to be investigated in the first place.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

I have no doubt that the administration had selfish and political motives for adding the question to the census, but isn't the question they added literally "Is this person a citizen of the United States?"? That seems like a pretty reasonable question to have on the census and I'm honestly surprised it wasn't already. Trying to use executive privilege to protect yourself from political embarrassment is definitely scummy if not outright criminal, I just don't understand why the question needs to be investigated in the first place.

The census isn't about determining who is a citizen and who is not, it is a voluntary headcount of all people who are present in an area that needs to be as accurate as possible because the data is used to determine everything from how much funding an area receives to house it's homeless to how much funding an area receives for food and healthcare support. It helps us understand where we have housing and job shortages and where we need to build more hospitals. Adding a citizen question will deter people worried that Ice would use it against them would be discouraged from participating, even those who are going through the legal process to become citizens and those who have one member of a large household a non citizen due to the current harsh environment. It would also leave out all of those currently applying to become citizens and encourage people to lie on the form. This would make the census numbers terribly inaccurate and negate the point of the census being used as an accurate headcount for an area especially at a time when Trump is trying to dump migrants in random cities all over the US increasing their concentration in areas they would not otherwise had existed. This would essentially make the census data irrelevant and useless to use as a base to determine resource distribution.

Of course the motive for contaminating the accuracy of the data should be investigated as it essentially negates the point of having the census at all.

For example:
If Trump dumps 100,000 migrants in a city and then doesn't count them in the census, it will not show there is a resource shortage needed in that area and Trump cannot then be required to send federal funds to help manage the problem he just created because according to the census they do not exist to be able to direct funding there. This means many areas that have the most housing shortages will not receive the funds they need to deal with them and will have an increased homeless population. Trump actually makes migration worse because instead of allowing for the natural flow of migrants to an area, he is forcing them to clump up all at once and be dumped without the resources they would have obtained otherwise by natural migration. So essentially there is more people in greater need than they would have been otherwise all clumped together needing more help all at once and no resources being allocated to handle it. If Trump had not changed previous policies, those migrants would have been spread out over time and regions relying on numerous charity resources from a variety of areas, not just overloading one all at once allowing the influx of the migrants to be sustainable rather than create an immediate humanitarian crisis.

Keep in mind this does not just create a crisis for the migrants, it creates a crisis for the citizens as well as they are also needing to use those same resources for food, housing, healthcare in that region as well and will not be able to due to the crisis that is then created by not counting all the people in an area.

 

[Silent Protagonist]

I have no doubt that the administration had selfish and political motives for adding the question to the census, but isn't the question they added literally "Is this person a citizen of the United States?"? That seems like a pretty reasonable question to have on the census and I'm honestly surprised it wasn't already. Trying to use executive privilege to protect yourself from political embarrassment is definitely scummy if not outright criminal, I just don't understand why the question needs to be investigated in the first place.

The census isn't about determining who is a citizen and who is not, it is a voluntary headcount of all people who are present in an area that needs to be as accurate as possible because the data is used to determine everything from how much funding an area receives to house it's homeless to how much funding an area receives for food and healthcare support. It helps us understand where we have housing and job shortages and where we need to build more hospitals. Adding a citizen question will deter people worried that Ice would use it against them would be discouraged from participating, even those who are going through the legal process to become citizens due to the current harsh environment. It would also leave out all of those currently applying to become citizens and encourage people to lie on the form. This would make the census numbers terribly inaccurate and negate the point of the census being used as an accurate headcount for an area especially at a time when Trump is trying to dump migrants in random cities all over the US increasing their concentration in areas they would not otherwise had existed. This would essentially make the census data irrelevant and useless to use as a base to determine resource distribution.

Why would the question deter non-citizens who are legal residents or in the process of becoming citizens? ICE can't/won't be able to do anything to them if they are here legally. The amount of citizens and non-citizens in a given area seems like information that would be useful to the government, far more so than some other common census questions.

I know why the Republicans want this question on the census. They think it will reveal information that they can use to increase their political power. I also know why the Democrats are pushing to investigate it. They think it will reveal information that they can use to increase their political power. The only difference is that while I can see the merits and use of the citizenship question outside of these far more cynical motives, I don't see why such an investigation into something so mundane really serves outside of partisanship. I know most people here don't want the Republicans to gain power in any way ever, this just doesn't seem like the most effective hill to fight them on.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

I have no doubt that the administration had selfish and political motives for adding the question to the census, but isn't the question they added literally "Is this person a citizen of the United States?"? That seems like a pretty reasonable question to have on the census and I'm honestly surprised it wasn't already. Trying to use executive privilege to protect yourself from political embarrassment is definitely scummy if not outright criminal, I just don't understand why the question needs to be investigated in the first place.

The census isn't about determining who is a citizen and who is not, it is a voluntary headcount of all people who are present in an area that needs to be as accurate as possible because the data is used to determine everything from how much funding an area receives to house it's homeless to how much funding an area receives for food and healthcare support. It helps us understand where we have housing and job shortages and where we need to build more hospitals. Adding a citizen question will deter people worried that Ice would use it against them would be discouraged from participating, even those who are going through the legal process to become citizens due to the current harsh environment. It would also leave out all of those currently applying to become citizens and encourage people to lie on the form. This would make the census numbers terribly inaccurate and negate the point of the census being used as an accurate headcount for an area especially at a time when Trump is trying to dump migrants in random cities all over the US increasing their concentration in areas they would not otherwise had existed. This would essentially make the census data irrelevant and useless to use as a base to determine resource distribution.

Why would the question deter non-citizens who are legal residents or in the process of becoming citizens? ICE can't/won't be able to do anything to them if they are here legally. The amount of citizens and non-citizens in a given area seems like information that would be useful to the government, far more so than some other common census questions.

I know why the Republicans want this question on the census. They think it will reveal information that they can use to increase their political power. I also know why the Democrats are pushing to investigate it. They think it will reveal information that they can use to increase their political power. The only difference is that while I can see the merits and use of the citizenship question outside of these far more cynical motives, I don't see why such an investigation into something so mundane really serves outside of partisanship. I know most people here don't want the Republicans to gain power in any way ever, this just doesn't seem like the most effective hill to fight them on.

Ice has already been deporting people that were here legally and Trump has been trying to strip naturalized citizens of their citizenship.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/12/04/born-philadelphia-us-citizen-says-he-was-held-deportation-jamaica-ices-request/?utm_term=.6d61a88b6398
https://www.thenation.com/article/denaturalization-trump-citizenship-emma-goldman/

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2017/04/18/first-protected-dreamer-deported-under-trump/100583274/

https://www.salon.com/2019/06/13/clumsiness-or-cruelty-trump-now-deporting-military-veterans-in-violation-of-federal-rules/

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2018/04/01/as-many-as-11800-military-families-face-deportation-issues-group-says/

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/travel/tourism-u-s-down-trump-took-office-costing-4-6-n840326

This is already happening and many immigrant communities are terrified worse is to come. You have many people worried their visas will be revoked, that they will not be able to renew them, many college students worried about finishing their education and families worried they will be ripped apart. Trump has citizens and not afraid of his current policies after the way minority communities a whole have been treated under Trump. Trump's stance on migration has not just made migrants afraid, he has stifled tourism to the US because people are worried they will pay for vacation packages and then not have everyone's visa's approved. Hell just putting the question on the census in this current environment will cause many citizens to boycott the census all together further invalidating the data.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/im-boycotting-the-census-if-it-has-a-citizenship-question/2019/06/07/05cfb642-862f-11e9-9d73-e2ba6bbf1b9b_story.html

This data will be so inaccurate it will need to be redone or thrown our entirely in some regions. The GOP is counting on that because if democrats and minorities boycott the census, the GOP can go even further with their gerrymandering efforts using inaccurate census data claiming all those people do not exist.

 

[Silent Protagonist]

I have no doubt that the administration had selfish and political motives for adding the question to the census, but isn't the question they added literally "Is this person a citizen of the United States?"? That seems like a pretty reasonable question to have on the census and I'm honestly surprised it wasn't already. Trying to use executive privilege to protect yourself from political embarrassment is definitely scummy if not outright criminal, I just don't understand why the question needs to be investigated in the first place.

The census isn't about determining who is a citizen and who is not, it is a voluntary headcount of all people who are present in an area that needs to be as accurate as possible because the data is used to determine everything from how much funding an area receives to house it's homeless to how much funding an area receives for food and healthcare support. It helps us understand where we have housing and job shortages and where we need to build more hospitals. Adding a citizen question will deter people worried that Ice would use it against them would be discouraged from participating, even those who are going through the legal process to become citizens due to the current harsh environment. It would also leave out all of those currently applying to become citizens and encourage people to lie on the form. This would make the census numbers terribly inaccurate and negate the point of the census being used as an accurate headcount for an area especially at a time when Trump is trying to dump migrants in random cities all over the US increasing their concentration in areas they would not otherwise had existed. This would essentially make the census data irrelevant and useless to use as a base to determine resource distribution.

Why would the question deter non-citizens who are legal residents or in the process of becoming citizens? ICE can't/won't be able to do anything to them if they are here legally. The amount of citizens and non-citizens in a given area seems like information that would be useful to the government, far more so than some other common census questions.

I know why the Republicans want this question on the census. They think it will reveal information that they can use to increase their political power. I also know why the Democrats are pushing to investigate it. They think it will reveal information that they can use to increase their political power. The only difference is that while I can see the merits and use of the citizenship question outside of these far more cynical motives, I don't see why such an investigation into something so mundane really serves outside of partisanship. I know most people here don't want the Republicans to gain power in any way ever, this just doesn't seem like the most effective hill to fight them on.

Ice has already been deporting people that were here legally and Trump has been trying to strip naturalized citizens of their citizenship.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/12/04/born-philadelphia-us-citizen-says-he-was-held-deportation-jamaica-ices-request/?utm_term=.6d61a88b6398
https://www.thenation.com/article/denaturalization-trump-citizenship-emma-goldman/

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2017/04/18/first-protected-dreamer-deported-under-trump/100583274/

https://www.salon.com/2019/06/13/clumsiness-or-cruelty-trump-now-deporting-military-veterans-in-violation-of-federal-rules/

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2018/04/01/as-many-as-11800-military-families-face-deportation-issues-group-says/

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/travel/tourism-u-s-down-trump-took-office-costing-4-6-n840326

This is already happening and many immigrant communities are terrified worse is to come. You have many people worried their visas will be revoked, that they will not be able to renew them, many college students worried about finishing their education and families worried they will be ripped apart. Trump has citizens and not afraid of his current policies after the way minority communities a whole have been treated under Trump. Trump's stance on migration has not just made migrants afraid, he has stifled tourism to the US because people are worried they will pay for vacation packages and then not have everyone's visa's approved. Hell just putting the question on the census in this current environment will cause many citizens to boycott the census all together further invalidating the data.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/im-boycotting-the-census-if-it-has-a-citizenship-question/2019/06/07/05cfb642-862f-11e9-9d73-e2ba6bbf1b9b_story.html

This data will be so inaccurate it will need to be redone or thrown our entirely in some regions. The GOP is counting on that because if democrats and minorities boycott the census, the GOP can go even further with their gerrymandering efforts using inaccurate census data claiming all those people do not exist.

You are probably right about the Republicans' motives. It's still irrelevant. Citizenship status of various populations is an important piece of information for the government to have, and has been included in the census before. The same logic could be used to disqualify most questions on the census. "Is this person of Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish origin?""What is this person's race?""What is this person's sex?" all provide information that could be used to discriminate against someone. Even the relationship status questions can potentially out your sexual orientation.

We don't need an investigation to tell us the motivation of the politicians for including the question because it is the same motivation every politician has for everything they do or do not do in government: they believe it will increase their and/or their party's power. This isn't about whether or not the census should include a citizenship question. The Democrats are using the premise of an investigation to find dirt, or create dirt when their targets try to stop them. I'm not particularly a fan of this MO, but they probably think it's the best chance they have of creating enough scandal to oust Trump in 2020.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

I have no doubt that the administration had selfish and political motives for adding the question to the census, but isn't the question they added literally "Is this person a citizen of the United States?"? That seems like a pretty reasonable question to have on the census and I'm honestly surprised it wasn't already. Trying to use executive privilege to protect yourself from political embarrassment is definitely scummy if not outright criminal, I just don't understand why the question needs to be investigated in the first place.

The census isn't about determining who is a citizen and who is not, it is a voluntary headcount of all people who are present in an area that needs to be as accurate as possible because the data is used to determine everything from how much funding an area receives to house it's homeless to how much funding an area receives for food and healthcare support. It helps us understand where we have housing and job shortages and where we need to build more hospitals. Adding a citizen question will deter people worried that Ice would use it against them would be discouraged from participating, even those who are going through the legal process to become citizens due to the current harsh environment. It would also leave out all of those currently applying to become citizens and encourage people to lie on the form. This would make the census numbers terribly inaccurate and negate the point of the census being used as an accurate headcount for an area especially at a time when Trump is trying to dump migrants in random cities all over the US increasing their concentration in areas they would not otherwise had existed. This would essentially make the census data irrelevant and useless to use as a base to determine resource distribution.

Why would the question deter non-citizens who are legal residents or in the process of becoming citizens? ICE can't/won't be able to do anything to them if they are here legally. The amount of citizens and non-citizens in a given area seems like information that would be useful to the government, far more so than some other common census questions.

I know why the Republicans want this question on the census. They think it will reveal information that they can use to increase their political power. I also know why the Democrats are pushing to investigate it. They think it will reveal information that they can use to increase their political power. The only difference is that while I can see the merits and use of the citizenship question outside of these far more cynical motives, I don't see why such an investigation into something so mundane really serves outside of partisanship. I know most people here don't want the Republicans to gain power in any way ever, this just doesn't seem like the most effective hill to fight them on.

Ice has already been deporting people that were here legally and Trump has been trying to strip naturalized citizens of their citizenship.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/12/04/born-philadelphia-us-citizen-says-he-was-held-deportation-jamaica-ices-request/?utm_term=.6d61a88b6398
https://www.thenation.com/article/denaturalization-trump-citizenship-emma-goldman/

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2017/04/18/first-protected-dreamer-deported-under-trump/100583274/

https://www.salon.com/2019/06/13/clumsiness-or-cruelty-trump-now-deporting-military-veterans-in-violation-of-federal-rules/

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2018/04/01/as-many-as-11800-military-families-face-deportation-issues-group-says/

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/travel/tourism-u-s-down-trump-took-office-costing-4-6-n840326

This is already happening and many immigrant communities are terrified worse is to come. You have many people worried their visas will be revoked, that they will not be able to renew them, many college students worried about finishing their education and families worried they will be ripped apart. Trump has citizens and not afraid of his current policies after the way minority communities a whole have been treated under Trump. Trump's stance on migration has not just made migrants afraid, he has stifled tourism to the US because people are worried they will pay for vacation packages and then not have everyone's visa's approved. Hell just putting the question on the census in this current environment will cause many citizens to boycott the census all together further invalidating the data.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/im-boycotting-the-census-if-it-has-a-citizenship-question/2019/06/07/05cfb642-862f-11e9-9d73-e2ba6bbf1b9b_story.html

This data will be so inaccurate it will need to be redone or thrown our entirely in some regions. The GOP is counting on that because if democrats and minorities boycott the census, the GOP can go even further with their gerrymandering efforts using inaccurate census data claiming all those people do not exist.

You are probably right about the Republicans' motives. It's still irrelevant. Citizenship status of various populations is an important piece of information for the government to have, and has been included in the census before. The same logic could be used to disqualify most questions on the census. "Is this person of Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish origin?""What is this person's race?""What is this person's sex?" all provide information that could be used to discriminate against someone. Even the relationship status questions can potentially out your sexual orientation.

We don't need an investigation to tell us the motivation of the politicians for including the question because it is the same motivation every politician has for everything they do or do not do in government: they believe it will increase their and/or their party's power. This isn't about whether or not the census should include a citizenship question. The Democrats are using the premise of an investigation to find dirt, or create dirt when their targets try to stop them. I'm not particularly a fan of this MO, but they probably think it's the best chance they have of creating enough scandal to oust Trump in 2020.

from the OP:

Two weeks ago, it was revealed that a deceased Republican consultant had studied the citizenship question in Texas and concluded it would be "advantageous to Republicans and non-Hispanic whites".

They have a valid reason for requesting the documents and investigating the motive because they found evidence that it was racially motivated, which would provide a foundation to legally block the question being added in court. It helps their court case, not just the election. If it is found that the question is being added to intentionally negatively target minorities, then they have solid grounds to not add it and have shown racially motivated malicious intent on part of the GOP. Which of course is nothing new, just another angle they are choosing to target and attack minorities. It isn't as much about Trump as it is about resources and future districts as the census data itself would have no direct impact on the election, outside of course of rallying more white supremacists in support of Trump and his census proposal. This "scandal" would have no negative impact on Trump, he has done far more damaging stuff than this. What this investigation provides is evidence for showing that it was necessary to census accuracy to remove the question and to keep it removed otherwise it unfairly targets minorities and causes the census to be inaccurate, according to both the democrats and republicans research data. It is 100% about the accuracy of the census data, as the Census data will not even be in by the time of Trump's election to impact it.

 

[Silent Protagonist]

I have no doubt that the administration had selfish and political motives for adding the question to the census, but isn't the question they added literally "Is this person a citizen of the United States?"? That seems like a pretty reasonable question to have on the census and I'm honestly surprised it wasn't already. Trying to use executive privilege to protect yourself from political embarrassment is definitely scummy if not outright criminal, I just don't understand why the question needs to be investigated in the first place.

The census isn't about determining who is a citizen and who is not, it is a voluntary headcount of all people who are present in an area that needs to be as accurate as possible because the data is used to determine everything from how much funding an area receives to house it's homeless to how much funding an area receives for food and healthcare support. It helps us understand where we have housing and job shortages and where we need to build more hospitals. Adding a citizen question will deter people worried that Ice would use it against them would be discouraged from participating, even those who are going through the legal process to become citizens due to the current harsh environment. It would also leave out all of those currently applying to become citizens and encourage people to lie on the form. This would make the census numbers terribly inaccurate and negate the point of the census being used as an accurate headcount for an area especially at a time when Trump is trying to dump migrants in random cities all over the US increasing their concentration in areas they would not otherwise had existed. This would essentially make the census data irrelevant and useless to use as a base to determine resource distribution.

Why would the question deter non-citizens who are legal residents or in the process of becoming citizens? ICE can't/won't be able to do anything to them if they are here legally. The amount of citizens and non-citizens in a given area seems like information that would be useful to the government, far more so than some other common census questions.

I know why the Republicans want this question on the census. They think it will reveal information that they can use to increase their political power. I also know why the Democrats are pushing to investigate it. They think it will reveal information that they can use to increase their political power. The only difference is that while I can see the merits and use of the citizenship question outside of these far more cynical motives, I don't see why such an investigation into something so mundane really serves outside of partisanship. I know most people here don't want the Republicans to gain power in any way ever, this just doesn't seem like the most effective hill to fight them on.

Ice has already been deporting people that were here legally and Trump has been trying to strip naturalized citizens of their citizenship.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/12/04/born-philadelphia-us-citizen-says-he-was-held-deportation-jamaica-ices-request/?utm_term=.6d61a88b6398
https://www.thenation.com/article/denaturalization-trump-citizenship-emma-goldman/

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2017/04/18/first-protected-dreamer-deported-under-trump/100583274/

https://www.salon.com/2019/06/13/clumsiness-or-cruelty-trump-now-deporting-military-veterans-in-violation-of-federal-rules/

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2018/04/01/as-many-as-11800-military-families-face-deportation-issues-group-says/

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/travel/tourism-u-s-down-trump-took-office-costing-4-6-n840326

This is already happening and many immigrant communities are terrified worse is to come. You have many people worried their visas will be revoked, that they will not be able to renew them, many college students worried about finishing their education and families worried they will be ripped apart. Trump has citizens and not afraid of his current policies after the way minority communities a whole have been treated under Trump. Trump's stance on migration has not just made migrants afraid, he has stifled tourism to the US because people are worried they will pay for vacation packages and then not have everyone's visa's approved. Hell just putting the question on the census in this current environment will cause many citizens to boycott the census all together further invalidating the data.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/im-boycotting-the-census-if-it-has-a-citizenship-question/2019/06/07/05cfb642-862f-11e9-9d73-e2ba6bbf1b9b_story.html

This data will be so inaccurate it will need to be redone or thrown our entirely in some regions. The GOP is counting on that because if democrats and minorities boycott the census, the GOP can go even further with their gerrymandering efforts using inaccurate census data claiming all those people do not exist.

You are probably right about the Republicans' motives. It's still irrelevant. Citizenship status of various populations is an important piece of information for the government to have, and has been included in the census before. The same logic could be used to disqualify most questions on the census. "Is this person of Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish origin?""What is this person's race?""What is this person's sex?" all provide information that could be used to discriminate against someone. Even the relationship status questions can potentially out your sexual orientation.

We don't need an investigation to tell us the motivation of the politicians for including the question because it is the same motivation every politician has for everything they do or do not do in government: they believe it will increase their and/or their party's power. This isn't about whether or not the census should include a citizenship question. The Democrats are using the premise of an investigation to find dirt, or create dirt when their targets try to stop them. I'm not particularly a fan of this MO, but they probably think it's the best chance they have of creating enough scandal to oust Trump in 2020.

from the OP:

Two weeks ago, it was revealed that a deceased Republican consultant had studied the citizenship question in Texas and concluded it would be "advantageous to Republicans and non-Hispanic whites".

They have a valid reason for requesting the documents and investigating the motive because they found evidence that it was racially motivated, which would provide a foundation to legally block the question being added in court. It helps their court case, not just the election. If it is found that the question is being added to intentionally negatively target minorities, then they have solid grounds to not add it and have shown racially malicious intent on part of the GOP. Which of course is nothing new, just another angle they are choosing to target and attack minorities. It isn't as much about Trump as it is about resources and future districts as the census data itself would have no direct impact on the election, outside of course of rallying more white supremacists in support of Trump and his census proposal. This "scandal" would have no negative impact on Trump, he has done far more damaging stuff than this. What this investigation provides is evidence for showing that it was necessary to census accuracy to remove the question and to keep it removed otherwise it unfairly targets minorities and causes the census to be inaccurate, according to both the democrats and republicans research data. It is 100% about the accuracy of the census data, as the Census data will not even be in by the time of Trump's election to impact it.

I'm not really sure why I keep responding because I don't really disagree with you , except maybe for what I perceive as naivety on the motives of the Democratic party even though I know you are far from naive. The Democrats do not care whether or not the census data is accurate or not, only whether it is advantageous to them or not. They believe (and as you have repeatedly pointed out probably rightfully so) that the inclusion of this question will return results that benefit the Republicans more than themselves in the long term. They have very little grounds for blocking this question being included in the census because it is not an unreasonable question to include and has been included in the past. So they need the investigation to try to turn up a reason, or better yet, find more evidence to feed into the racist Republicans narrative. They can also use, as is the very premise of this thread, Republican efforts to prevent this to further stir up sentiments against Trump and the Republicans. This very much has a lot to do with the upcoming 2020 election even though the census results won't be in by then. They are looking for ammo to use against Trump. You are right that the long term effects regarding districting are also an important factor though.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

I have no doubt that the administration had selfish and political motives for adding the question to the census, but isn't the question they added literally "Is this person a citizen of the United States?"? That seems like a pretty reasonable question to have on the census and I'm honestly surprised it wasn't already. Trying to use executive privilege to protect yourself from political embarrassment is definitely scummy if not outright criminal, I just don't understand why the question needs to be investigated in the first place.

The census isn't about determining who is a citizen and who is not, it is a voluntary headcount of all people who are present in an area that needs to be as accurate as possible because the data is used to determine everything from how much funding an area receives to house it's homeless to how much funding an area receives for food and healthcare support. It helps us understand where we have housing and job shortages and where we need to build more hospitals. Adding a citizen question will deter people worried that Ice would use it against them would be discouraged from participating, even those who are going through the legal process to become citizens due to the current harsh environment. It would also leave out all of those currently applying to become citizens and encourage people to lie on the form. This would make the census numbers terribly inaccurate and negate the point of the census being used as an accurate headcount for an area especially at a time when Trump is trying to dump migrants in random cities all over the US increasing their concentration in areas they would not otherwise had existed. This would essentially make the census data irrelevant and useless to use as a base to determine resource distribution.

Why would the question deter non-citizens who are legal residents or in the process of becoming citizens? ICE can't/won't be able to do anything to them if they are here legally. The amount of citizens and non-citizens in a given area seems like information that would be useful to the government, far more so than some other common census questions.

I know why the Republicans want this question on the census. They think it will reveal information that they can use to increase their political power. I also know why the Democrats are pushing to investigate it. They think it will reveal information that they can use to increase their political power. The only difference is that while I can see the merits and use of the citizenship question outside of these far more cynical motives, I don't see why such an investigation into something so mundane really serves outside of partisanship. I know most people here don't want the Republicans to gain power in any way ever, this just doesn't seem like the most effective hill to fight them on.

Ice has already been deporting people that were here legally and Trump has been trying to strip naturalized citizens of their citizenship.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/12/04/born-philadelphia-us-citizen-says-he-was-held-deportation-jamaica-ices-request/?utm_term=.6d61a88b6398
https://www.thenation.com/article/denaturalization-trump-citizenship-emma-goldman/

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2017/04/18/first-protected-dreamer-deported-under-trump/100583274/

https://www.salon.com/2019/06/13/clumsiness-or-cruelty-trump-now-deporting-military-veterans-in-violation-of-federal-rules/

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2018/04/01/as-many-as-11800-military-families-face-deportation-issues-group-says/

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/travel/tourism-u-s-down-trump-took-office-costing-4-6-n840326

This is already happening and many immigrant communities are terrified worse is to come. You have many people worried their visas will be revoked, that they will not be able to renew them, many college students worried about finishing their education and families worried they will be ripped apart. Trump has citizens and not afraid of his current policies after the way minority communities a whole have been treated under Trump. Trump's stance on migration has not just made migrants afraid, he has stifled tourism to the US because people are worried they will pay for vacation packages and then not have everyone's visa's approved. Hell just putting the question on the census in this current environment will cause many citizens to boycott the census all together further invalidating the data.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/im-boycotting-the-census-if-it-has-a-citizenship-question/2019/06/07/05cfb642-862f-11e9-9d73-e2ba6bbf1b9b_story.html

This data will be so inaccurate it will need to be redone or thrown our entirely in some regions. The GOP is counting on that because if democrats and minorities boycott the census, the GOP can go even further with their gerrymandering efforts using inaccurate census data claiming all those people do not exist.

You are probably right about the Republicans' motives. It's still irrelevant. Citizenship status of various populations is an important piece of information for the government to have, and has been included in the census before. The same logic could be used to disqualify most questions on the census. "Is this person of Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish origin?""What is this person's race?""What is this person's sex?" all provide information that could be used to discriminate against someone. Even the relationship status questions can potentially out your sexual orientation.

We don't need an investigation to tell us the motivation of the politicians for including the question because it is the same motivation every politician has for everything they do or do not do in government: they believe it will increase their and/or their party's power. This isn't about whether or not the census should include a citizenship question. The Democrats are using the premise of an investigation to find dirt, or create dirt when their targets try to stop them. I'm not particularly a fan of this MO, but they probably think it's the best chance they have of creating enough scandal to oust Trump in 2020.

from the OP:

Two weeks ago, it was revealed that a deceased Republican consultant had studied the citizenship question in Texas and concluded it would be "advantageous to Republicans and non-Hispanic whites".

They have a valid reason for requesting the documents and investigating the motive because they found evidence that it was racially motivated, which would provide a foundation to legally block the question being added in court. It helps their court case, not just the election. If it is found that the question is being added to intentionally negatively target minorities, then they have solid grounds to not add it and have shown racially malicious intent on part of the GOP. Which of course is nothing new, just another angle they are choosing to target and attack minorities. It isn't as much about Trump as it is about resources and future districts as the census data itself would have no direct impact on the election, outside of course of rallying more white supremacists in support of Trump and his census proposal. This "scandal" would have no negative impact on Trump, he has done far more damaging stuff than this. What this investigation provides is evidence for showing that it was necessary to census accuracy to remove the question and to keep it removed otherwise it unfairly targets minorities and causes the census to be inaccurate, according to both the democrats and republicans research data. It is 100% about the accuracy of the census data, as the Census data will not even be in by the time of Trump's election to impact it.

I'm not really sure why I keep responding because I don't really disagree with you , except maybe for what I perceive as naivety on the motives of the Democratic party even though I know you are far from naive. The Democrats do not care whether or not the census data is accurate or not, only whether it is advantageous to them or not. They believe (and as you have repeatedly pointed out probably rightfully so) that the inclusion of this question will return results that benefit the Republicans more than themselves in the long term. They have very little grounds for blocking this question being included in the census because it is not an unreasonable question to include and has been included in the past. So they need the investigation to try to turn up a reason, or better yet, find more evidence to feed into the racist Republicans narrative. They can also use, as is the very premise of this thread, Republican efforts to prevent this to further stir up sentiments against Trump and the Republicans. This very much has a lot to do with the upcoming 2020 election even though the census results won't be in by then. They are looking for ammo to use against Trump. You are right that the long term effects regarding districting are also an important factor though.

See now I think the democrats actually do have a solid case for not including the citizenship question because they have the data from before the question was removed and after to show that including the question caused the census data to be inaccurate as well as can show that it racially targets minority communities and adversely affects resource distribution and causes actual danger due to everything from medicine and vaccine shortages to causing increased homelessness due to inaccurate data. How this adversely affects the future is not just in the district maps, but also in how funds and resources are distributed for many years to come. The biggest issue here is how this impact the future, not the actual 2020 election. Democrats do actually care about the accuracy as they actually care about providing enough housing, food and medical assistance whereas Republicans do not care about that because they actively try to remove the government helping to provide those things in the first place so could care less about causing shortages as they are already causing shortages through the policies they are promoting in the first place.

Democrats have a solid case in keeping the question off the census because all data collected by both democrats and republicans have shown it to cause actual harm to people as a result of having it on there due what all actually depends on the data being accurate. Causing shortages of basic necessities for survival due to inaccurate data is a pretty good reason to not have it on there in the first place.


They have plenty of more effective ammo to throw at Trump, this isn't even going to be a factor as it doesn't really do anything to harm him among his base as it is. This really has zero impact on whether or not trump is reelected, it does have an impact on future maps and so many other vital programs though. By the time it affects Trump voters due to shortages it created, Trump will no even be in politics anymore.