Poll: A Defense for Space Timmy's Presence at the end of ME 3

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RJ 17

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TLDR Version: While Space Timmy himself might not be necessary, the role that he fills most certainly is. To find out why, you're just gonna have to read the long version, or at least the last few paragraphs. P.S. If you don't like to read, I suggest getting off the internet...as it requires quite a lot of reading. :p

Alright, we all know that one of the biggest rage-inducing factors of the ME 3 ending was lil' Space Timmy. People thought he was shoe-horned in, that he utterly broke the flow of the game, made certain elements of the game meaningless, etc etc etc. I forget what topic it was in, but I had a discussion with someone regarding this matter and the more I discussed it, the more I came to realize that while you might not like Space Timmy himself, SOMEONE had to fill the role that he filled.

As for complaints about him, I might as well start with this list as provided in a different topic by I.Muir

I.Muir said:
RJ 17 said:
I.Muir said:
Ah mass effect, you can always pretend that the star child never even existed and go straight to the reapers destroyed ending. I think there is a mod that does that for you too.
I won't derail your thread with my defense of the ME 3 ending, suffice to say that I've come to realize that Space Timmy is necessary for the story...well, more specifically, the role he fills is necessary for the story.
This thread was way more successful than I ever thought it would be
Guess we all just love video games
Chances are it will dissipate soon anyway.

So tell me your take on why he should be there and ill just sum up everybody's arguments on why he shouldn't be

1: His presence contradicts the protheans being able to disable of the citadels automatic function as a huge mass effect gate or whatever they are called I forgot
2:He gives a motivation to the reapers where none before was necessary and thus removes their shroud of unknowable terror
3:Having given you the choices available I believe it wasn't really explained why damaging the .... thing, jumping into it and whatever else did anything at all
4:Many feel that they were just given the illusion of choice, all of which nullified any branches they had taken along the way in the game and the implication of each choice wasn't really elaborated on differently for each ending. Even if it would have just been a chord of sinister background music to imply that there was more danger on the horizon or not.
5:I forgot the rest but my friend believes he is simply the by product of a certain writer wanting to force a young boy into the game any way they can. What that writers original purpose for the character was is supposed to be disturbing to say the least.
1: Here in lies a clash of opinion as there's nothing to prove what I'm about to say, however there certainly is nothing that disproves it either. However as the saying goes, "The simpliest explination is often the best one", I will keep things simple. Perhaps he just wasn't around back then.

Timmy specifically describes himself as the collective will of the Reapers. It could be argued that unless the Reapers are awake and active in the galaxy, Timmy doesn't exist. That is to say maybe when it's said "Sovereign must go activate the Citadel relay", what he's really doing is waking up Timmy who in turn activates the relay. While ordinarily this can be done remotely, the Protheans altered the signals that are being sent and received by the Citadel, thus making it impossible for Timmy to be awoken. They accomplished this by returning to the Citadel only once the Reapers had left the galaxy and thus Timmy would be "asleep" again.

If that doesn't work for you, who's to say that Timmy has any control over the Citadel at all? Where did that theory come from? All we know is that he is an AI that is housed inside the Citadel, it's never said that he has full control over it's functionality.

2: (And this ties in with the "shoe-horned in" complaint) The Reapers have always had motivation, they can't stop talking about it. "We represent order, you represent chaos. We bring order to the chaos of organic life. Your mind cannot possibly comprehend the magnitude of our purpose. Yadda Yadda Yadda". Furthermore, if you were paying attention to the conversation with the Prothean VI on Thessia, you'd recall the VI stating that the Reapers are a symptom (or something) of the cycle, however they are not the controlers of it. They too are just pawns. "So who's really in charge"? We don't know, "It's presence is inferred rather than observed." Right there he tells you that there's something bigger than the Reapers that's controlling them. It's what we in the writers' community like to call foreshadowing. That right there, beyond anything else, refutes the "shoe-horned in" complaint as they tell you about him earlier in the game.

As for the motivation, like I said, you couldn't keep them from talking about it. "We are your salvation through destruction" - Harbinger, ME 2 gun-fight taunt. Well it seems the Reapers were certainly right about one thing: we cannot possibly comprehend their motivations. That...that actually directly answers the "Yo Dawg!" motivational poster pic saying "I heard you didn't want to get killed by synthetics so I'm going to kill you with synthetics!" Again, for those in the class that were paying attention, this is something that was addressed in ME 2, and even in your conversation with Soveriegn back in the first game. Surely Harbinger HAD to mean something when he said lines like "We are your salvation through destruction". But this is a fact that apparently very many people either didn't or couldn't understand. The reason "I'm gonna use synths to kill you so you don't get killed by synths" makes no sense is because it's not supposed to...hence "You cannot comprehend our motivations". The Reapers had been preaching it all along.

3: As for how each ending ACTUALLY plays out, here are my thoughts on the matter:

Green: Shepard's DNA is converted into energy and mixes with the Catalyst's (Timmy, who is an AI) ennergy and this combination is sent out in a shockwave that encompasses the entire galaxy. Synthetics become more organic and organics become more synthetis, thus creating a nice (boring) utopia.

Blue: Everything that Shepard is, his/her will, memories, thoughts, everything, is absorbed into the Catalyst, thus making Shepard the new Catalyst. If you notice in the EC, the Citadel doesn't actually fire a beam for this ending, rather it just sends out a shockwave. This shockwave is essentially a "softwave update" that informs all Reapers that Shepard is now in control.

Red: Destroying the power center sends out what is essentially a hyper EMP that fries all Reapers in the galaxy, as well as - like Timmy says - "damaging technology that you depend on, but it should not take long to rebuild".

In short: Space Magic. I don't see how this is a problem my friends, I've heard plenty of people throw around the phrase "Space Magic" with regards to how the endings are bullshit...well in that case the entire series is bullshit as it revolves around space magic that allows people to travel faster than light, move things with their mind, and fire guns that shoot at relativistic speeds without their arms getting ripped off.

4: With regards to the Illusion of Choice. This doesn't necessarily have to do with Space Timmy, but rather the fact that many people would have prefered having your ending being dictated by the choices you made rather than you being able to choose the ending. When you stop and think about all the major choices that you make throughout the game...what is their end purpose? What is their overall goal? When you stop and think about it, with the exception of some "spur of the moment decisions" like killing Wrex on Virmire or destroying/keeping the Collector base, each choice is ultimately building towards the united galactic fleet and/or building the crucible. That's where you get to see your choices played out. Make good choices and your fleet is huge, make back choices and your fleet is small. Killing the rachni means they're not there to help build the crucible. Saving the geth mean they're available to join your fleet and help build the crucible. Betraying the Krogan mean the Salarians join up, saving the Krogan mean they don't. All the choices in one way or another affect the size of your united galactic fleet. While I do agree it would have been nice if said fleet had a bigger impact than just a few cutscenes (I had heard something about them originally wanting there to be a tactical section where you had to issue orders to the fleet and ground troops, kinda like picking teams at the end of ME 2), in the end your choices are building towards either helping or hindering the fleet.

5: This one actually segues perfectly into where I was going to go with this after having addressed the rest of the list: "Why Space Timmy?"

Which brings me to the thesis of my defense, if it wasn't Space Timmy, SOMEONE had to be there to guide Shepard. Beyond the fact that, as I had already mentioned, the Prothean VI foreshadows the fact that there's something controling the Reapers and the Cycle, there had to be something other than Harbinger sitting there at the end of the story. "Why the hell is that? I wouldn't have minded having a conversation with Harbinger and making a choice, why the fuck is it some ghost kid?" Simple. Would you REALLY have been satisfied with a conversation with Harbinger explaining the various uses of the Crucible? Harbinger, Mr. "OMG LULZ ORGANICS ARE WORTHLESS, INSIGNIFIGANT ANTS! THEY THINK THEY CAN WIN WHEN I HAZ CHEEZBURGER?!" Well, you get the point. He goes from gloom and doom, you're wasting your time, your struggle is futile, to all of a sudden saying "And if you choose THIS option you can REALLY fuck us in the ass by enslaving us and making us obey your very will. Oh all that talk about you being worthless? Well I honestly didn't think you'd get this far..." It would be a HUGE character shift for Harbinger to go from explaining how everything you do is meaningless to explaining the various ways you can utterly defeat the Reapers via destruction, control, or pacification.

"Hey douchefag, you STILL have said why the role is necessary." Hold your nuts, I'm getting to that. For starters - and a rather simple observation - something had to be keeping the Reapers from just attacking the Citadel/Crucible once the Crucible arrived. TIM ran to the Citadel and warned the Reapers that the Crucible was complete and ready to be launched. They KNOW that a massive threat is heading their way. Even if they don't know what it does, the Reapers are far too calculating to let anything that could possibly be considered a threat exist. Soooooo why didn't they just destroy it? The Catalyst was holding them back, that's why. This is made clear when you pick the new "Fuck your choices!" choice and Timmy changes his voice to Harbinger's and says "So be it." At that point, since you made it clear you don't intend to use the Crucible, there was no reason to hold back anymore...and so the onslaught was allowed to commence.

Then there's what should have been a very obvious question for everyone at the end of ME 2. We now know how Reapers are made: an entire civilization is harvested, liquified, and used to make a new Reaper. The obvious question then is "Alright.....so where did the first Reaper come from? What got this whole deal started?" Well thanks to the EC, we now know definitively how it all started. Millenia ago there was a civilization that wanted to solve the "inevitable" conflict between Synthetics and Organics. This civilization created The Catalyst in order to find a solution to this problem. The Catalyst tried various solutions but none of them ever worked. And so it came across a new solution: simply remove the variables. If there are no organics or synthetics to fight each other, then there can't be any conflict between organics and synthetics. Staying true to the theme of "The Created will always rise up against their Creators", so too did the Catalyst ultimately betray those that created him. It was the classic "AI becomes "evil" by following it's programming/purpose too directly."

The way a cleaning robot might kill its master because its master is the one that keeps making the house a mess, so too did the Catalyst remove its creators since they were the ones who were always in conflict with synthetics. So the Catalyst turns the civilization that created it into the first Reaper, "They did not approve", and used that Reaper to begin the first harvest. However, the Catalyst's goal is not the destruction of all forms of life, it's simply to prevent conflict between organics and synethics. As such, organics that are primitive are skipped over so that they can have their chance to advance, live out their lives, and then get harvested. In the Catalyst's twisted logic, this is the perfect solution because he doesn't consider himself as being a great destroyer of life, but rather a great protector of it. Each civilization isn't destroyed, it is preserved in Reaper form. While we consider the Reapers abominations, the Catalyst sees absolutely nothing wrong with them since essentially each one encapsulates the civilization that was harvested to make it.

The point is, SOMETHING had to start the cycle. SOMETHING had to "build" the first Reaper. It was either an entire civilization getting together, drinking their "special kool-aid" from so may humble Dixie cups, then jumping in the liquification vats. Or the process had to be automated and controled by something...something like an AI who feels the best way to fulfill its primary purpose is to destroy all advanced forms of life.

So, in conclusion, say what you want about Space Timmy being a dorky little boy who was formerly known as Spontaneous Combustion Lad. The simple fact remains, though, that SOMETHING had to fill the role that he plays. SOMETHING other than a Reaper had to be there waiting for Shepard. SOMETHING had to have started the Cycle.

Class dismissed. :p
 

I.Muir

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RJ 17 said:
TLDR Version: While Space Timmy himself might not be necessary, the role that he fills most certainly is. To find out why, you're just gonna have to read the long version, or at least the last few paragraphs. P.S. If you don't like to read, I suggest getting off the internet...as it requires quite a lot of reading. :p

Alright, we all know that one of the biggest rage-inducing factors of the ME 3 ending was lil' Space Timmy. People thought he was shoe-horned in, that he utterly broke the flow of the game, made certain elements of the game meaningless, etc etc etc. I forget what topic it was in, but I had a discussion with someone regarding this matter and the more I discussed it, the more I came to realize that while you might not like Space Timmy himself, SOMEONE had to fill the role that he filled.

As for complaints about him, I might as well start with this list as provided in a different topic by I.Muir

I.Muir said:
RJ 17 said:
I.Muir said:
Ah mass effect, you can always pretend that the star child never even existed and go straight to the reapers destroyed ending. I think there is a mod that does that for you too.
I won't derail your thread with my defense of the ME 3 ending, suffice to say that I've come to realize that Space Timmy is necessary for the story...well, more specifically, the role he fills is necessary for the story.
This thread was way more successful than I ever thought it would be
Guess we all just love video games
Chances are it will dissipate soon anyway.

So tell me your take on why he should be there and ill just sum up everybody's arguments on why he shouldn't be

Snip
1: Here in lies a clash of opinion as there's nothing to prove what I'm about to say, however there certainly is nothing that disproves it either. However as the saying goes, "The simpliest explination is often the best one", I will keep things simple. Perhaps he just wasn't around back then.

Snip

Class dismissed. :p
A whoooolllleeee lot of text latter
Interesting points and certainly plausible
However I personally will go with my gut feeling on this one
One last question though, where did the name TIMMY come from?
 

RJ 17

The Sound of Silence
Nov 27, 2011
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I.Muir said:
One last question though, where did the name TIMMY come from?
darlarosa said:
I did not get the update, are we now calling him Space Timmy?
I've been calling him Space Timmy from the start. General term for a little boy character: "Lil' Timmy". Lil' Timmy in space = Space Timmy.

I'm weird, I know.
 

evilneko

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Jun 16, 2011
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I got a better idea.

Instead of a shitty minutes long completely unnecessary exposition dump from the I, Robot boy, simply have a machine you can interact with in three ways (or ignore). The way you choose to interact with it determines the ending.

In this way, Shepard is The Catalyst, not some stinkin' AI.

Oh, and don't even tell the player beforehand what action leads to what ending. Maybe hint at them, or just one or two of them, but leave the player mostly in the dark as to the consequences.

As for decisions the player made along the way--big fucking deal about the fleet. So fucking what, it doesn't matter in the end. How about if you seriously fucked up, you're completely screwed? Well, gamers are whiny bastards and might not like that, just make it insanely hard to get any ending except "game over man!" How about at least accounting for some of them in the ending itself? If the Geth and/or Rachni are present, mention it's easier to repair the relays and shit. If you fucked over the krogan, they figure it out and go on a rampage and have to be put down (ooh, bad end!). You get the idea.
 

RJ 17

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Nov 27, 2011
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evilneko said:
I got a better idea.

Instead of a shitty minutes long completely unnecessary exposition dump from the I, Robot boy, simply have a machine you can interact with in three ways (or ignore). The way you choose to interact with it determines the ending.

In this way, Shepard is The Catalyst, not some stinkin' AI.

Oh, and don't even tell the player beforehand what action leads to what ending. Maybe hint at them, or just one or two of them, but leave the player mostly in the dark as to the consequences.

As for decisions the player made along the way--big fucking deal about the fleet. So fucking what, it doesn't matter in the end. How about if you seriously fucked up, you're completely screwed? Well, gamers are whiny bastards and might not like that, just make it insanely hard to get any ending except "game over man!" How about at least accounting for some of them in the ending itself? If the Geth and/or Rachni are present, mention it's easier to repair the relays and shit. If you fucked over the krogan, they figure it out and go on a rampage and have to be put down (ooh, bad end!). You get the idea.
Just to clarify, my argument wasn't justifying the story telling aspect of the kid, but rather to show that even if everything you just mentioned was how you mentioned it, there would STILL have to be something waiting for Shepard at the end of the game. If not the kid, then something else. That's all I was trying to prove.
 

evilneko

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RJ 17 said:
Just to clarify, my argument wasn't justifying the story telling aspect of the kid, but rather to show that even if everything you just mentioned was how you mentioned it, there would STILL have to be something waiting for Shepard at the end of the game. If not the kid, then something else. That's all I was trying to prove.
And I advocated exactly the opposite: nothing but the machines should be waiting there. Ditch starkid, ditch his technobabble expo dump, only a choice awaits.
 

Atmos Duality

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Such effort to defend such shitty writing.

Foreshadowing a Deus Ex Machina for later does not in any way make it less of a Deus Ex Machina. If you want to interpret the foreshadowing in Mass Effect 1 as to refer to the Star Child, go ahead. But it isn't conclusive because the foreshadowing itself is VERY vague.
(probably was by design so that they could have wrote in any Deus Ex Machina they wanted later. Not specifically Star Child)

This is shitty writing.

Why? It's exactly like foreshadowing with the line "God works in mysterious ways." and then introducing God at the 11th hour for the plot resolution.

It invalidates *everything* that lead up to that point.
Not good for a story meant to bring closure as the end to a long trilogy.

That's precisely what the Star Child is; it's that "God who works in mysterious ways".
Why are the Reapers acting under the contradictory-logic of "We must kill all of you so that you don't kill each other"?
Because Star Child says so, and it has its own agenda that the CHARACTERS (not necessarily the audience) allegedly "cannot understand".

Oh. How awfully convenient. So instead of the Reapers acting like patently-retarded murder machines, it's the Star Child who told them to do that because he's the collective will of the Reapers. OK. So what's *his* motivation?

Never explained.

If the so-called "answer" to a specific question leads back to the same exact question, then it isn't a valid answer for the audience.
It's a cop-out to avoid having to answer that question, and that's one of the worst things you can do in a story that's designed specifically to bring closure.
 

Shocksplicer

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1. The problem wasn't that he was unnessesary, it's that the whole sequence was poorly written and stupid. Also, having him appear as that annoying shit from the first level was just plain fucking ridiculous.
2. Never call him "Space Timmy" again. EVER.
 

Adam Jensen_v1legacy

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Sep 8, 2011
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No. He shouldn't exist. It doesn't matter what you write and how you write it. Nothing can change the fact that it's existence retroactively ruined the entire trilogy.

EC made it worse actually. It revealed why it was created. So we are supposed to believe that a bunch of organics who were AT WAR with synthetics decided that the best course of action is to create another AI to tell them what to do. What? They couldn't make a weapon that would destroy all synthetics or something like that? They had to create an AI to help them with their AI problem? It doesn't make any god damn sense at all.
How retarded do you have to be to do something so fuckin' stupid?
 

Deadyawn

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You make a good point. In the story that Bioware wrote, space timmy is very much integral.

Personally my problem with ME3 is that I think the story that Bioware wrote is kind of shit.

That is all.
 

chimeracreator

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RJ 17 said:
The point is, SOMETHING had to start the cycle. SOMETHING had to "build" the first Reaper. It was either an entire civilization getting together, drinking their "special kool-aid" from so may humble Dixie cups, then jumping in the liquification vats. Or the process had to be automated and controled by something...something like an AI who feels the best way to fulfill its primary purpose is to destroy all advanced forms of life.
Not entirely true. Based on what the reapers are they could have easily ditched the organic vs synthetic argument and just said that some truly ancient species made themselves into the first reapers thus achieving, in their minds, immortality. After living like this for eons and seeing organic civilizations rise, fall, make war upon each other and themselves they came to believe that they should help these civilizations by granting them the gift of immortality that they had long since achieved.

Thus they set out and turned the races of that era into more reapers and laid the groundwork for the salvation of future races. They would forever preserve their culture and many key figures of their golden ages through their gift.

This makes a LOT more sense in my mind based on what Harbinger and Sovereign said in previous games. We know each reaper was made of tens of thousands if not tens of millions of people or as Sovereign put it, "we are each a nation."

But instead they turned them into a poorly thought out tool of an idiot godchild who could have just went: "Well crap they finally figured it out. I better relocate for the next cycle while he bleeds out on the floor down there."
 

ErwinGodfrey

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You known I wasn't here for most of the ME3 "RAGE!!!" threads, but I would never have guessed that the rage was so thick in the air that it now warrants a full essay justifying the existence of a minor character from the game. The More You Know I guess. Seriously though, was it really the most enraged the Escapist has ever been?
 

Casual Shinji

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My renegade Shep wouldn't give a fuck about kids so the fact that one is representing Shep's fear of loss or whatever throughout the game already made no fucking sense.

How about they had Harbinger and/or a bunch of other reapers wait for Shep at the end. Would've made a lot more impact on me than stupid space boy.

The ending will remain stupid till the end of time.
 

Casual Shinji

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ErwinGodfrey said:
Seriously though, was it really the most enraged the Escapist has ever been?
I think it was the most enraged the internet has ever been.
 

Infernai

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Casual Shinji said:
ErwinGodfrey said:
Seriously though, was it really the most enraged the Escapist has ever been?
I think it was the most enraged the internet has ever been.
Until the next controversy comes along anyway..
 

Casual Shinji

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Infernai said:
Casual Shinji said:
ErwinGodfrey said:
Seriously though, was it really the most enraged the Escapist has ever been?
I think it was the most enraged the internet has ever been.
Until the next controversy comes along anyway..
Well, The Dark Knight Rises is close to release...
 

Suomimaster

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This is little bit off topic, but what constantly bothers me is that The Citadel was supposed to be a huge Mass Relay used to summon the Reaper forces, which were in sleep-mode outside our galaxy in the "black space". In the first Mass Effect this is prevented, the Citadel doesn't become Mass Relay.

In Mass Effect 2, during the ending cutscene we clearly see the Reaper forces moving towards our galaxy from the "black space". So how the hell:
1. They were able to move so frigging fast,
2. Went totally unnoticed by everyone in the whole galaxy until they attacked Earth?
3. The Citadel was meant so that the Reapers would get surprise attack, cripple the galaxy wide society and to preserve their powers. So shouldn't the Reapers be out of power (or something)?

Are these answered in the ME3?
 

ErwinGodfrey

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Casual Shinji said:
Infernai said:
Casual Shinji said:
ErwinGodfrey said:
Seriously though, was it really the most enraged the Escapist has ever been?
I think it was the most enraged the internet has ever been.
Until the next controversy comes along anyway..
Well, The Dark Knight Rises is close to release...
I think that would only make a considerable shit-storm if the opinion on the movie is mixed between fans, but acclaimed by critics, kind of like how ME3 was.