Poll: Are RPGs getting 'dumbed-down'?

[Eduku]

After hearing about a plethora of upcoming RPGs (many of which are sequels) over the summer, I was just thinking about what seems to be a trend in RPGs lately:

Firstly, the KOTOR series surprised a few people by making SW not only an RPG, but a good one too. It was a good single-player experience in terms of the characters and the storyline. KOTOR 2 ended up being not quite so good as the first, due to the developers having to rush the game to meet deadlines to get it out for the holidays (however, fans have put together all the content that was cut in their own 'KOTOR 2 Restoration Project'). After that, another entry was announced, but not exactly in the form that KOTOR fans were expecting. They had announced SW:The Old Republic in the form of an MMORPG.

A lot of fans had a shared opinion in the Elder Scrolls series, in that Oblivion also felt like a 'dumbed-down' version of Morrowind (albeit, IMO, with a much improved combat system) in terms of the general world and lore and stuff. A lot of old-school Fallout fans seemed to have the same issue with FO3 from FO2.

Dragon Age was a largely anticipated RPG, even dubbed the 'spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate 2' (I'm not sure if it was the devs who said this or the fans). While it was an excellent RPG, it didn't seem to have the scope or depth of the Baldur's Gate series. I recall that Bioware had said that they will never make a game as big as the Baldur's Gate games. Dragon Age 2 has been announced, and several hands-on previews have made sure to note that the game seems to be more action-orientated, though whether this takes away from the RPG elements is yet to be seen.

Mass Effect was an excellent RPG/shooter, an epic sci-fi RPG which a large, deep universe and storyline. Mass Effect 2 seemingly split the fanbase, many of which said it was much better, with much smoother, free-flowing combat, while others really didn't like how they took out the RPG-ness from the first.

A new Neverwinter Nights has also just been announced, however it looks almost like they are also going the MMORPG route, saying that 'Players will choose from one of five different classic D&D classes, teaming up with friends online or join up with computer-controlled teammates, taking on adventures in a persistent online world.' Note that there are five classes in this one, compared to the 15+ classes in previous installments.

While I'm talking about WRPGs here, JRPGs aren't exactly immune to this (e.g. Final Fantasy XIII), but many of them have stuck to their own formula.

There are probably a lot of other possible examples, but they escape me at the moment. I've tried to avoid giving judgements on this just yet, I wanna see what you guys think.

 

[BlumiereBleck]

No. Not at all.

 

[Space Spoons]

I don't generally play RPGs outside the JRPG sub-genre, so I'm not sure how qualified I am to comment on this, but I never got the impression that RPGs were getting dumbed down. Quite the contrary, in fact, it seems to me that they're actually getting more complex as time goes on.

 

[Johnnyallstar]

Saying that RPGs are being dumbed down implies that they were once intelligent. Which also assumes that they were better way back in the day than they are now. I wouldn't say either of those are true, but what I would say is that the RPG world is continuing to evolve.

 

[Ken_J]

No they are not dumbed-down the have remained pretty much the same but have become more accessible. The thing is if you have this big expansive complex RPG it runs the risk of being a very uninviting experience.

The Oblivion v Morrowind argument does hold some weight because Oblivion's environment did look a bit generic by comparison to Morrowind's but the actual gameplay became much more inviting.

 

[starhaven]

they are some what but apon saying that while i belive the interfaces are being simplyfied/dumbed down in some cases that is not a bad thing some of the old systems were bad

also while some of the storys are not as deep at aleast unless ur willing to do alot of reading in some games case's. with the improved graphics and now voice acting they can put in alot of things that used to be missing. body langaue, tone of voice these things when added to a strong char bring the game more depth then ever before

 

[CitySquirrel]

"Dumbed down" is such a nebulous term that can basically be taken to mean anything that an individual doesn't like about current RPGs. What are the criteria for being "dumbed down"? What aspects are you referring to, the stats or the role-playing or both? Does dumbed down just mean simplified? Any tabletop player would say computer RPGs are dumbed down in that sense. Further more, specifics have to be qualified: was Dragon Age dumbed down because they though BG was too complex or because when BG was made they could make a vast world with relatively few resources unlike today's manually rendered worlds?

It seems to me that this is an entirely subjective issue. The question is really more along the lines of "do you individuals more enjoy complex stat based systems, streamlined story telling devices, etc." For example, you cite FF 13 which you allude to being "dumbed down", but while certain things have been simplified, the combat is much more complex than the old FF games or JRPGs in general. Does one cancel out the other?

Edit: saw this after I posted:

No more world maps because we can't let people get lost. Controlling only one character cause it's too complicated to have the player control more than one.

Can you prove it is because "we can't let people get lost"? Does it maybe make more sense that with giant resource (money and time) hogging scenery they have decided to put in fewer places and force people to go to the ones they do make rather than putting effort into something people might skip or miss?

 

[Tdc2182]

You say they are getting dumbed down. I say they are getting less boring.

 

[Riddle78]

Yes. Far too much. I want an RPG that makes me think on what to do,and how to approach the situation. I want the next Gothic game to go back to its roots,and make combat all about timing and skill,rather than how big your weapon is.

 

[Tony2077]

i noticed that jrpg and other such rpg are the only thing these days that are keeping me interested in the genre and the ones from bioware are helping too

 

[Mr. Omega]

Some games are REALLY dumbing it down, but others are making it more complex. So yes and no. Mostly yes, unfortunately.

 

[Onyx Oblivion]

Very much so. Mass Effect 2 was barely an RPG...And Dragon Age 2 looks to be getting the same treatment as Mass Effect 2.

That said, the JRPG genre remains as deep as always, for the most part. Despite the linearity of FF13, the combat was one of the deepest systems in the series history. A fight with a basic enemy carried risk. It was no longer just a slow grind on your supplies to get though a dungeon and make to the boss in good enough shape to pound his ass. Basic enemies required some strategy. And grinding was limited, with a cap on your skills that only increases with each chapter.

Blue Dragon was one the easiest games I've ever fucking played, but still managed to have a complex leveling system that encouraged class-mixing and experimentation, and with the Hard Mode add-on they released to fix these complaints, turned into a much better game. Then again, it was easy, because it was a starter JRPG for the most part.

And Fable is getting simplified to the point of hack n slash now. But it never was terribly deep to begin with.

 

[ChromeAlchemist]

Well that's the sacrifice you make for cutting edge technology. Depth has for the most part been sacrificed for prettiness in some of the msot anticipated games (Oblivion, FFXIII, Fallout, though it should be noted that this is by the most die hard of fans).

It's a shame, but that's how it's become. It takes so long to design a game world, we'll be waiting half a decade per game if these games stayed as complex as they used to be.

 

[Vhite]

Yes, but its not that bad, yet. There isnt that much pure RPGs any more, they are usualy mixed with other genres and even if they arent they usually stick to many times used used methods. If it will continue this way then I gotta say that best RPGs were already made.
JRPGs seem to be kinda untouched by this but they have their own crysis.
Also I gotta add that MMORPGs are strong pillar here because complexity is basicly one of their selling points but they never were and never will be something like Baldurs Gate or original Fallout.

 

[Bloodstain]

Yes, yes they are.

Both WRPGs and JRPGs were better back in the day, at least in my opinion.

I miss the times when everyone played Morrowind. ._.

 

[Azure-Supernova]

I wouldn't say they're getting 'dumbed down'. But I would say that they are changing.

I mean, a bucket load of Fallout fans complained about Fallout 3 being a totally different experience from the original and Fallout 2? Well duh, there's more than a decade between them and it's changed developers. Let's look at Pokémon:

Top down Adventure RPG. Imagine if Game Freak gave it to someone else and they released it on the Wii in the style of Colosseum but in keeping with the original Pokémon play style? There'd be complaints no doubt. But there are complaints now that it's sticking to the same formula.

It's hard to win with people, because if you innovate you get lynched, if you don't you get lynched. So what do you do?

 

[Onyx Oblivion]

For example, you cite FF 13 which you allude to being "dumbed down", but while certain things have been simplified, the combat is much more complex than the old FF games or JRPGs in general. Does one cancel out the other?

Is this a joke? I hope so because I sure laughed out loud.

More complex? Here's a FF13 battle:

1) Auto Battle till your health gets low
2) Paradigm shift to recover health
3) Back to Auto Battle

How is that any simpler that casting Curaga when your health gets low in other FF games?

At least basic enemies could threaten you in FF13. You couldn't just grind your way to uber strength, either, thanks to leveling caps.

 

[ALuckyChance]

It depends on the game. Take a look at Pirahna Bytes' games, for example.