Poll: Auto industry bailout: Should congress do it?

[Reversal]

I keep hearing on the news that the big 3 auto makers of The United States are going under. This has prompted the auto makers to go running to congress asking for 25 billion dollars in a bailout to keep the companies from going bankrupt. Now, seeing as we just bailed out the banks what do you think we should do? I'm of the opinion myself, NO. The companies are going under because they didn't give the consumer what they wanted. The market currently called for a reliable vehicle that spends more time on the road than in the shop, and one with decent gas milage. Instead, they continued to pump out gas guzzling suvs and trucks that are extremely unreliable and spend more time being fixed than they should. I'm of the opinion that if they seriously tried to match the market's demands they wouldn't be in this situation. Instead they made the same old hunks of junk that always are breaking. It's their own fault for not listening to the market.

The problem is the employees that will be out of work. I think if congress does decide to spend money, they should give the people out of work the money. You dont need to spend 25 billion to provide adequate support to a few million workers. I think if you gave them a reasonable amount of money, they could live off of that for awhile and try to find new work. Maybe return the money to the taxpayers. What are your thoughts members of the escapist? I myself have a hard time believing they will significantly change their companies and probably just make a ton of hybrid cars that are too expensive to afford, or just continue their old work.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

They should give some of them bail outs. Chrysler/Dodge hasn't done squat to try and save themselves. They've been churning out 300's and touting how strong their trucks are. On the other hand, Chevy is working on a gas/electric hybrid that should work for 40 miles without any gas. I've heard that they've started selling their private jets and that's the only reason I'm supporting them at all.

 

[AceDiamond]

On the one hand I think the rich jackwads who didn't listen to demand deserve whatever they get.

On the other hand if those companies went under a lot of workers would suffer. So yes, they should get some sort of a bailout, but they have to then show proof they're using it responsibly (as in using it what they claim they need it for) otherwise we demand the money back.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

I mean, have you ever seen a 300 up close? The thing is a fricking tank! The driver door weighs more than the engine of my car! /hyperbole

Sorry, I had to get that over with. But look at their competition.

http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-sedan/specifications.aspx?group=epa
http://www.toyota.com/corolla/index.html

This is what they are making.
http://www.chrysler.com/hostc/vsmc/vehicleSpecModels.do?modelYearCode=CUC200901#

If you don't want to see the carnage up close,
25/36 Honda
26/35 Toyota
17/25 300 at BEST, 13/19 at worst.

And they think this will win.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

Taxation from ordinary people, going into the pockets of orporations. So those corporations can use that tax money to make cars, and sell those cars to the tax-payers who have already paid for them.

Maybe my view is skewed by my dislike of mega-corporations but I personally don't like this.

 

[Reversal]

See, I can understand some companies might be doing some good work, and maybe those should get some consideration, but what about the prices of the hybrid? Some of them are expensive as hell, and when everyone wants to save money, that's a really bad thing. Though it seems the smartest move is to choose who to bail out and actually pay attention to how the money is spent. I mean come on, giving it to guys who are going to piss it away anyway is not my idea of a smart decision.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Of course, comparing the super fuel efficient cars to the 300 might not be fair, so how about this:
http://www.toyota.com/highlander/index.html
http://automobiles.honda.com/cr-v/specifications.aspx?group=epa

Again, for the faint of heart:
18/24 Toyota
20/27 Honda
and still 17/25 300

Now you may be thinking "It's not that bad, the 300 is even more fuel efficient than the Toyota". That's if you haven't clicked the links and seen that I'm now comparing the 300 to the Toyota and Honda SUV's. Japanese SUV's get similar or better fuel economy than a Chrysler sedan.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

See, I can understand some companies might be doing some good work, and maybe those should get some consideration, but what about the prices of the hybrid? Some of them are expensive as hell, and when everyone wants to save money, that's a really bad thing. Though it seems the smartest move is to choose who to bail out and actually pay attention to how the money is spent. I mean come on, giving it to guys who are going to piss it away anyway is not my idea of a smart decision.

you don't have to have a hybrid to have good fuel economy. The Honda and Toyota sedans cost less than $20K new. you can get a Smart 42 for cheaper than that. Economic is expensive is a load of bull. Even if we talk about hybrids, the Honda is 24K new and the Toyota is 22K new. The pitiful 300? 27K new. For the cheap version.

 

[asinann]

They don't do this bailout (and attach conditions to it that the unions have to eat and the execs have to eat in the form of pay cuts for all) and it's not just the ones that work in Detroit that lose their jobs. A lot of the big 3's suppliers will go under, the people that support those suppliers etc... all will lose their jobs. This isn't just about the big 3, it's about a ton of people (and I don't mean the plants outside the U.S. which will all remain open regardless, Ford and GM will all just become foreign cars.)

 

[iamnotincompliance]

Far be it for me to claim any sort of knowledge on bankruptcy law, but I would think allowing "the big 3" to go under would do far more damage than most people are thinking of. Ford owns Volvo and Mazda, GM owns Saab, Opel, and Holden. Not only would Congress be screwing Detroit, but good sized chucks of Sweden, Japan, Germany, and Australia. Factor in the other industries that automakers buy stuff from in massive quantities (iron, steel, aluminum, wiring, etc.) and they're just too damn big and essential to go under. Throw in precedence (that they loaned Chrysler money back in the 80's, and Chrysler has never been as big as Ford or GM) and it's almost ridiculous to consider otherwise. Even the United Autoworkers Union is making concessions (a union meaning squat if the company's out of business and all), so for those who've completely missed my point, yes, they should, and soon.

 

[thiosk]

While only a few votes have been tallied, so far the results match the opinion of the nation.

A bailout for the big three is really just a bailout for big labor.


of course, im totally against wall street bailouts as well. fiat money only leads to more fiat money. wheelbarrows of worthless fiat money.

 

[sneakypenguin]

Hmmm no let them declare bankruptcy get rid of the UAW contract that is killing them, and let dodge go down the drain. Jobs shall be lost but we can't just keep bailing everything out. Computer sales crash hey lets bail out dell HP and apple, people don't buy boats lets bail out searay and moomba . Where do you stop?

I can see some sort of Govn't loan if detroit gets rid of UAW contracts and GM gets rid of Saturn and Pontiac and ford dumps Lincoln and Mercury, seriously they don't need to sell re badged fords and GMs

 

[crimson5pheonix]

If one of the big companies goes, that will leave room for some of the smaller car companies to go big. Hopefully Tesla. I want one of those things...

LINK EDIT: http://www.lightningcarcompany.co.uk/
http://www.teslamotors.com/

These need to take off.

 

[Aardvark]

Why is GM coming to the US government with a handout? Why don't they just go to the oil companies, wave their latest electric car design in their fat faces and ask them how much it's worth to not release the thing.

 

[asinann]

If one of the big companies goes, that will leave room for some of the smaller car companies to go big. Hopefully Tesla. I want one of those things...

There won't be anyone for Tesla (whoever they are) to buy supplies from once the big 3 go down.
Tesla's suppliers are the same ones the big 3 use, and without the big 3 those suppliers are gone too.

And bankruptcy won't clear the current union contracts, it will only force taxpayers to pay for the pension and health care of their retirees.

One way or another the taxpayers are eating this, one way, jobs are saved, the other way, jobs are lost and we still pay as much (if not more.)

 

[crimson5pheonix]

If one of the big companies goes, that will leave room for some of the smaller car companies to go big. Hopefully Tesla. I want one of those things...

There won't be anyone for Tesla (whoever they are) to buy supplies from once the big 3 go down.
Tesla's suppliers are the same ones the big 3 use, and without the big 3 those suppliers are gone too.

And bankruptcy won't clear the current union contracts, it will only force taxpayers to pay for the pension and health care of their retirees.

Nope, Tesla relies on Lotus, which if I'm not mistaken, have their own foundry and are self sufficient. Also they aren't gas at all. Full electric. They don't rely on big three suppliers. So the big three can shove it.

 

[AceDiamond]

If one of the big companies goes, that will leave room for some of the smaller car companies to go big. Hopefully Tesla. I want one of those things...

LINK EDIT: http://www.lightningcarcompany.co.uk/
http://www.teslamotors.com/

These need to take off.

They also need to be more affordable. And no, I don't mean in 2012 when their "BlueStar" model or whatever hits showrooms. I'm not paying $100K+ for a car ($50-$65k if you're buying the "sedan" that comes out in 2011)

 

[crimson5pheonix]

If one of the big companies goes, that will leave room for some of the smaller car companies to go big. Hopefully Tesla. I want one of those things...

LINK EDIT: http://www.lightningcarcompany.co.uk/
http://www.teslamotors.com/

These need to take off.

They also need to be more affordable. And no, I don't mean in 2012 when their "BlueStar" model or whatever hits showrooms. I'm not paying $100K+ for a car.

True, but it's a proof of concept. You know (or probably do) that electric motors are powerful. Most Americans think that electric motors are wimpy things that won't propel a car that well. If you can show them an electric car that laughs at most Italian sports cars (which cost more), you get consumers.

 

[Zykon TheLich]

The government should buy shares in them instead. That way the companies get cash and people keep thair jobs, but the government own their asses.