Poll: "Benevolent Sexism"...Wait, what?!

[RJ 17]

Sorry ladies, but I give up...because apparently no matter what I try to do, I'm being sexist. According to a new study conducted by Northeastern University in Boston, there's a form of sexism that's even more "insidious" and hurtful than outright hostile sexism. The "wolf in sheep's clothing", as the researchers called it, is "Benevolent Sexism".

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/415256/study-being-nice-women-sign-sexism-katherine-timpf

So the next time a guy holds a door open for you, offers you his umbrella during the rain or his coat during the cold, or even offers to help carry something heavy for you, you shouldn't feel thankful that a kind person is trying to help you...no, you should be out-right offended that he would have the audacity to offer!

I remember back in the day when such behavior was considered being a gentleman...now I honestly have absolutely no idea how I'm supposed to treat a lady without coming across as a sexist.

What do you think, my fellow Escapists? Is "Benevolent Sexism" actually a thing? Should I stop holding the door open for women or offering them my jacket?

 

[DoPo]

Should I stop holding the door open for women

I hold the door open for everybody. Regardless of who they are. I think it's the polite thing to do. Well, there is also the fat it's more of a UK thing, however, I do like it and I've incorporated it in my "Being nice to people" list. Even if it gives me odd looks at times.

I think a similar thing can be said for most of the rest of these behaviours - they are literally just being nice to people list. That doesn't mean they are automatically such, though - if one is literally only nice to women, that would be sexism. Whether it's "insidious" or "treacherous" is a different matter, however. It could be, or it could not be - depends on the motivation behind these actions.

The study, however...doesn't sound that good.

 

[Dizchu]

Benevolent sexism is indeed a thing, but you are caricaturing it. Many feminists caricature it too, actually.

But as a concept I don't see why people have such a problem with it. MRAs constantly complain about what others would consider "benevolent sexism", which is essentially the preferential treatment of women by men. "Women and children first" was benevolent sexism. Women getting lighter prison sentences is benevolent sexism. The abuse of women being taken seriously and the abuse of men being treated like a joke is, again, benevolent sexism.

It's not, as you are suggesting, the same thing as "being polite". If you are polite to women in the same way you'd be polite to men (I'm assuming you'd hold the door open for anyone) that is by definition not "benevolent sexism".

And any feminist that does call that specific act of politeness "benevolent sexism" needs to chill the hell out. But I am unconvinced that many of them do that.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Yes, benevolent sexism is a thing, and has been known for ages, and there is nothing particular new or controversial about it.

To over simplify, if you restrict what a woman can or can't do because she's inferior as a woman, that's common or garden sexism. If you restrict what a woman can or can't do because she's superior as a woman, that's benevolent sexism.

If you say "women shouldn't do that!", that's sexism. Doesn't matter so much if you say it's because they are too worthless, or they are too valuable, you are saying they shouldn't do that. That latter happens to be benevolent sexism.

 

[Galletea]

This nonsense about holding doors open has been around for years, it was a thing back before I joined and has cropped up probably once a year since. Most people are grateful for a bit of politeness and anyone who isn't is probably just attention seeking.

Also, I think it's been called 'positive discrimination' here before, where minorities are targeted and favored in order to fulfill quotas and make it seem that society is more equal, rather than address any tricky issues directly.

 

[Lilani]

What do you think, my fellow Escapists? Is "Benevolent Sexism" actually a thing? Should I stop holding the door open for women or offering them my jacket?

Well it's clear the National Review is doing what the National Review always does and is lambasting and caricaturing something it believes is even a remotely liberal idea.

Anyway, the way they define it, yes. I would say it exists, and to an extent it can be a problem. The problem isn't necessarily the actions but the motivations and assumptions behind them. If you do things exclusively for women--not because it's the nice thing to do, but because they're a woman--then why are you doing it? They list the "women and children get evacuated off the sinking ship first" thing, which is called the Berkenhead drill, which is something which never really was an official thing in maritime protocol, at least not universally and not for a very long time. And it certainly does not exist in the present. The troubling thing behind that is that it puts women and CHILDREN in the same category. It's based on the assumption that women and children are on the same level of capability and self-sufficiency, both physically and psychologically. Obviously, that's a troubling assumption to be making about women in general.

I have noticed throughout my life a certain kind of "background radiation" in some places regarding my status as a female and how that might make me more "fragile" or "innocent" in some ways. Some people might change their language or apologize for a swear in front of what they deem a "lady," because apparently I'm supposed to give a flying fuck about that. The action isn't necessarily rude, but it's coming from a place that's making assumptions about my character and capabilities based solely on my gender. Assumptions which override how a person might naturally behave or see me if I were a man. I don't want to be treated "like a lady," I want to be treated like me. Don't jump out of your seat to allow me a place to sit, give it to the elderly man holding a cane. I promise I am perfectly capable of standing for a time, I did 13 hour shifts working popcorn stands at Disney World. I can probably out-stand anybody who bothers giving me their seat.

 

[Ramzal]

HA! Yeah, this is crazier than a bag of cats. Look, it's just doing something nice to hold a door open for a lady you are on a date with if you're a guy. When I was dating I only had one girl get angry with me over holding the car door open for her and about a minute or two later after I started driving she went "I bet if I were a man you wouldn't have held the door open for me" with her arms crossed, and furrowed brows. I then immediately stopped my car, unlocked the doors and told her the date was over and to get out of my car. If she can't handle a single act of kindness and returned my gesture with rudeness then I cannot see any sort of intimate relationship with her. And that I was then treating her just like I would treat any male friend of mine who had a chip on their shoulder.

She had heels on, and it was not a warm day out. She had her mouth open in shock and then asked if I was really going to just let her walk home and I told her if she wanted to be treated as I treat my male friends when they're assholes then there you go. I currently enjoy cooking for my wife, rubbing her feet and shoulders when she is tired, holding doors open for her, carrying more of the groceries when we go shopping, doing her laundry, and scheduling pedicures for her when I know she had a stressful past few days. And that lady I dated for all of 3 minutes? She currently enjoys a guy who yells at her at every given moment, berates her, has slammed the door of their home in her face and told her to go sleep somewhere else and cheats on her frequently.

"Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it." Although she got the extreme. I'm sure she wanted a sane and level headed guy but she settled for that.

 

[Lilani]

Yeah, this 'holding doors open' thing pops up every now and again.

I'm curious, do women tend to hold doors open for other women? (Or for men, for that matter?) And if so, is that "sexist"?

I'm a woman and I hold doors for anybody and everybody who happens to be close enough behind me, lol.

I'm curious as to whether or not ANYBODY anymore actually discriminates whether or not they do this by gender? From what I can tell there is always an expectation regardless of gender that if you're reasonably close behind somebody they should hold the door open, at least in the "already through the threshold and holding it open from the inside" style. The "standing out of the way and holding it open from the outside" style is something much rarer, but I will admit I see men doing this more often than women (though I do it sometimes if the situation calls for it, like a big family is coming through who needs some room).

I think it's only sexist if you discriminate by gender, because you're making an assumption that either women are the only ones who deserve such a courtesy, or are the only ones that need it. Either one ends up slighting a gender.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Yeah, this 'holding doors open' thing pops up every now and again.

I'm curious, do women tend to hold doors open for other women? (Or for men, for that matter?) And if so, is that "sexist"?

Or, for that matter, does anyone actually complain about this IRL? It seems to be much more than someone knows someone whose cousin met someone that might have seen a strawfeminist once.

Well, except when I do it, because letting go of the door when someone is halfway through so they have to jump out of the way...that's always funny, but people complain.

 

[tippy2k2]

Women! Am I right fellas?!!?

Anyway, this is one of those "sounds good in theory until you try to bring it into practice" thing. Maybe there's a super subconscious level of my mind that is only holding the door open because she's a girl and obviously inferior to my male penis (or maybe a subconscious level that thinks holding door = opening her door...ladies? ;D). I suppose it's technically possible...

Basically, I go with Lilani's view; the WHY is way more important than the what. Holding a door open for someone because I'm being polite and not wanting a door to slam in their face; that's a good thing! Holding a door open for someone because I think they're pathetic for not being able to do it themselves and so out of pity, I must hold the door open to help the lessers; that's a bad thing.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Just be nice to everybody. If somebody complains, let the door go on their face.

 

[Dizchu]

There seems to be this idea that "benevolent sexism" is "women not appreciating the good things men do for them". Indeed, benevolent sexism does give women many benefits, but it's not based on merit or mutual respect. If anything it's patronising. Many women like the status quo, they like being able to get away with things men can't, they like being fawned over and treated like they are perpetually 16 years old. But many other women find that behaviour degrading and want to be recognised for their achievements. Shrugging off the concerns of the latter group as "hysterical feminists" offends me far more than some annoying lady whining about doors being held open.

For example, have you noticed how talented female musicians that happen to be good-looking are constantly told how attractive they are? A woman does a flawless 280BPM blastbeat or nails a difficult tapping arpeggio on a guitar, but that is somehow secondary to "wow she's hot". That's benevolent sexism. Overlooking substance for superficial qualities instead.

This doesn't mean men have it easier than women. In fact I believe benevolent sexism towards women also causes an equal and opposite reaction that negatively affects men (those men freezing to death in the Atlantic ocean after the Titanic sunk). But the thing is, they're all bullshit double-standards.

 

[RJ 17]

It's a no-win scenario for men, doesn't matter what men do, have to be two opposite things at the same time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbJOLq5wXwk

I just don't care any more.

 

[Zontar]

It's a no-win scenario for men, doesn't matter what men do, have to be two opposite things at the same time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbJOLq5wXwk

I just don't care any more.

OT: I think the reason a small group of people are trying to make this an issue is due to sexism being used in place of chauvinism so much that to some, and type of sexism, even benevolent sexism, is seen as inherently bad.

It's a odd line of thinking born from the minds of people who don't have a full grasp on human interactions.

 

[RJ 17]

It's a no-win scenario for men, doesn't matter what men do, have to be two opposite things at the same time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbJOLq5wXwk

I just don't care any more.

OT: I think the reason a small group of people are trying to make this an issue is due to sexism being used in place of chauvinism so much that to some, and type of sexism, even benevolent sexism, is seen as inherently bad.

It's a odd line of thinking born from the minds of people who don't have a full grasp on human interactions.

Ah yes was thinking about, "the only way to win, is not to play at all".

Just look at Japan, how well that's going, 80% of men seeing themselves as Herbivore men, will only get worse, as long people tries to make everything a man does, as sexist or bad, until they just don't want to interact with women at all, and just live their life, as they please.

 

[Zontar]

Ah yes was thinking about, "the only way to win, is not to play at all".

Just look at Japan, how well that's going, 80% of men seeing themselves as Herbivore men, will only get worse, as long people tries to make everything a man does, as sexist or bad, until they just don't want to interact with women at all, and just live their life, as they please.

I think the 10-14 hour workdays which sees "overworked" as an actual medical condition has something to do with it, as well as the social obligations those working in Japan's odd business culture have to their employers as well in a "who has time for that type of thing" sort of way.

 

[Phasmal]

Sorry ladies, but I give up...because apparently no matter what I try to do, I'm being sexist.

Sorry men. I give up, unless you can all act the same way, you're clearly too zany and confusing to even try. It's like you think you're individuals or something /OBVIOUS SARCASM.

According to a new study conducted by Northeastern University in Boston, there's a form of sexism that's even more "insidious" and hurtful than outright hostile sexism. The "wolf in sheep's clothing", as the researchers called it, is "Benevolent Sexism".

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/415256/study-being-nice-women-sign-sexism-katherine-timpf

So the next time a guy holds a door open for you, offers you his umbrella during the rain or his coat during the cold, or even offers to help carry something heavy for you, you shouldn't feel thankful that a kind person is trying to help you...no, you should be out-right offended that he would have the audacity to offer!

I remember back in the day when such behavior was considered being a gentleman...now I honestly have absolutely no idea how I'm supposed to treat a lady without coming across as a sexist.

What do you think, my fellow Escapists? Is "Benevolent Sexism" actually a thing? Should I stop holding the door open for women or offering them my jacket?

Y'know what time it is- unpopular opinion time!
`Gentelmenly behaviour` can fuck off. Someone describing themselves as a gentleman is most usually a sign to avoid the hell out of them, I have found.

Bugger being a gentlemen, try being a decent person.
Personally, I open the door for everyone, should I reach said door first, and have never felt this a huge burden on my soul, but the way some people create about it- you'd think doors were all made of fucking stone and had to be opened by sweat and blood. Opening doors is just fucking polite, it doesn't make anyone into a bloody medieval knight.

How about treating a lady as an individual in the way you think she'd want to be treated?

I remember this guy who wanted to date me who fancied himself a gentleman. I've told this story before, but yeah, he used to go way overboard and try and dramatically open doors for me, and take bags off of me that were mine and I clearly wanted to be holding.
Funnily enough when I told him to knock it off, I got, `You women just can't decide what you want!`.

Oh, I don't know Escapist, maybe I'm just a huge *****, expecting to be treated like an individual and expecting others to show basic politeness to all regardless of gender.

 

[Story]

Or you know, you can just be nice to everyone reguradless of gender?

 

[lacktheknack]

It's not sexist when I hold doors open, because I do it for everyone. Screw what people think, I know who I am. That's what actually matters.

The one time some lady started talking at me very sternly for doing it, I let go of the door and walked away. She got to open the door herself, and I got to shut a door in a rude person's face. Win-win.