Recently, I was listening to talk radio with my father, and the pundit brought up something very interesting. He brought up freedom and equality, and their role in society. So, Escapists, what should civilization strive for more? Are there more important ideals to be focused on? Please discuss.
Poll: Equality vs Freedom
- Thread starter The Scythian
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Freedom, cause with freedom comes the chance to make eqaulity, while equality only leads to less freedom (case in point, affirmative action).
Isn't legal inequality a bit antithetical to freedom? Saying one group can do something and another group can't is not freedom. There are also different kinds of freedoms and equalities, so this isn't a really coherent question. I'd go so far as to say that without further specification, the question itself is meaningless.
Equality is communism, freedom is democracy. To have both you must be either Switzerland or Luxembourg. The 2 neutral countries.
I am the man who arranges the blocks...
*Looks up*
Oh, whoops. Heh heh heh... Actually, a world where people don't NEED to be in positions of power and just DO the things they're suppose to do to make the world work right would be nice. I think that's the world Alan Moore suggested V was trying to create.
*Looks up*
Oh, whoops. Heh heh heh... Actually, a world where people don't NEED to be in positions of power and just DO the things they're suppose to do to make the world work right would be nice. I think that's the world Alan Moore suggested V was trying to create.
I don't know. Either could be a bad thing without the other. Absolute equality is forcing everyone to be equal and shackling them into equality. Absolute freedom destroys equality by letting those with power trample the rights of those without. I don't think the core notion of what society should strive for can be summed up in one word.
Freedom without Equality tends to lead to the people who are getting the raw deal while waiting on other people to give them their freedoms out of the goodness of their hearts revolting against the privileged upper class.
Conversely, if everyone is equal in having fewer freedoms, everyone has a common goal of gaining greater freedoms to work towards together.
Conversely, if everyone is equal in having fewer freedoms, everyone has a common goal of gaining greater freedoms to work towards together.
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ugh, ok, affirmative action is there to make sure that a minority group has freedom without a majority group infringing on it, which has happened allot in the past and will happen again if we dont watch it carefullyemeraldrafael said:
I picked other because how exactly are these things in opposition to each other. In what case must you choose between equality and freedom? Unless you are talking about the freedom to take away equality from other people... which I suspect may be exactly what the pundit was trying to drum up support for.
There are a lot of people saying that those fighting for equality are somehow taking away the freedom of those people who don't want to see said equality happen. To be specific 'same sex marriage/anti-bullying campaigns is trying to push the gay agenda on everyone and forcing us to accept them as equal.' Which breaks down to 'your demand for equality is impinging on my freedom to deny you that equality.' Which is patently absurd, but the core behind most of the arguments against equal rights for LGBT people. Rights by the way which are supposed to not be taken away by any laws imposed by state governments as basic rights.
So there is no reason to choose equality or freedom. Rather we should be fighting for both at the same time. They are not in opposition, in fact they normally should be working hand in hand.
There are a lot of people saying that those fighting for equality are somehow taking away the freedom of those people who don't want to see said equality happen. To be specific 'same sex marriage/anti-bullying campaigns is trying to push the gay agenda on everyone and forcing us to accept them as equal.' Which breaks down to 'your demand for equality is impinging on my freedom to deny you that equality.' Which is patently absurd, but the core behind most of the arguments against equal rights for LGBT people. Rights by the way which are supposed to not be taken away by any laws imposed by state governments as basic rights.
So there is no reason to choose equality or freedom. Rather we should be fighting for both at the same time. They are not in opposition, in fact they normally should be working hand in hand.
both they arnt mutually exclusive, their different ends of different spectrums. its not either democracy or communism, its democracy or dictatorship and capitilism or communism.
prolly freedom poor and free over rich and a ***** i suppose but its a hard choice is freedom to starve any freedom at all?
prolly freedom poor and free over rich and a ***** i suppose but its a hard choice is freedom to starve any freedom at all?
its nothing about freedom, its about equality. you have hte freedom to go for any job, its your qaulifications that exclude you.Worgen said:
Wow, so much oversimplification.
If you don't have equality, you don't have freedom for all. Someone will lose their freedom in some way, otherwise you have equality.
If you don't have freedom... equality is still possible.
In other words, you can have both, but you can't have freedom alone.
As for "Pure equality is communism". Not it isn't. Not at all. Communism is effectively state control as a means of applying equality, which in turn, did not create equality.
As for "Look at affirmative action". Affirmative action is an investment in future equality, not the application of equality. It specifically pushes the balance in an unequal fashion in order to break cycles of poverty, and lack of education.
You have no money, your kids go to crap schools, they have no money, their kids go to crap schools, etc.
Yes, exceptions exist. No, they are not the norm. No, the slim possibility of success does not in any way justify ignoring the massive probability of failure when nothing is done.
Affirmative action is there to break that cycle to create equality in the future. It isn't there to be equality. So pointing at it and saying "this is what equality means" is as silly as looking at *any* investment as a loss just because your money has gone away the second you invest.
If you don't have equality, you don't have freedom for all. Someone will lose their freedom in some way, otherwise you have equality.
If you don't have freedom... equality is still possible.
In other words, you can have both, but you can't have freedom alone.
As for "Pure equality is communism". Not it isn't. Not at all. Communism is effectively state control as a means of applying equality, which in turn, did not create equality.
As for "Look at affirmative action". Affirmative action is an investment in future equality, not the application of equality. It specifically pushes the balance in an unequal fashion in order to break cycles of poverty, and lack of education.
You have no money, your kids go to crap schools, they have no money, their kids go to crap schools, etc.
Yes, exceptions exist. No, they are not the norm. No, the slim possibility of success does not in any way justify ignoring the massive probability of failure when nothing is done.
Affirmative action is there to break that cycle to create equality in the future. It isn't there to be equality. So pointing at it and saying "this is what equality means" is as silly as looking at *any* investment as a loss just because your money has gone away the second you invest.
You cannot have both.emeraldrafael said:
Equality means I am the same as you (I=you)
Freedom leads to Egality, which means I'm worth the same as you on principle, I get no special treatments for any reason(I=>you). Everyone keeps their worth in Kant's way (As rationality is a necessity to morality, it is natural that morality applies to rationality).
If I = you and you = everyone else, then, by all being the same, we are worthless, or at best worth no more than one person. If I force your hand into hiring people you do not want to meet quotas, we're getting closer to the brave new world.
So when people balk at the idea of someone saying "I don't believe there should be equality" - they might have a better, more important principle.
