Poll: Free will and our mental processes.

[Coppernerves]

I've decided that in order to make better decisions and more accurate beliefs, it would be useful to gain insight on how decisions are made and beliefs are formed.

It makes some sense then, to start with a topic of how beliefs about decision are formed.

So my fellow Escapists, I ask to thee such questions three:

What is your opinion on whether we have free will or not?

How did you come to the conclusion?

What does this say about how your mind works?

For fairness I'll have a go.

Spoiler: My answers

"Free will" to me, is the ability to form different decisions in the same set of circumstances.
Until recently I thought this was impossible on the grounds that the circumstances included the state of the person within them, and the general principle that the same things in the same states and circumstances did the same things.

However it has come to my attention that the underlying principle is flawed in its' lack of falsifiability:

No matter how many times you put something into the same state and circumstances, and it does the same thing, there is no confirmation that it will continue to do so, except the repetition itself, it'd be like saying "the sky is green because it is green".

Indeed according to contemporary physics, one can't even fully ascertain the current state of an object, let alone what it will do.

I noticed after someone said that free will was unfalsifiable, I didn't think it was because of my little "repetition" principle, which I then questioned the falsifiability of.

This of course brings me to the question of how I started assuming that in the first place, which I haven't remembered/figured out yet.

I suppose it just goes to show how little assumptions like that can grow a whole network of false knowledge without one even noticing.

That line from inception makes a bit more sense now:
"An idea is like a virus, resilient, highly contagious. The smallest seed of an idea can grow. It can grow to define or destroy you."

REPLYING EDIT
There have now been many 2 cents on whether free will exists, and even some nice discussion on whether it's relevant, and compatible with determinism and with social contracts.
Nice going.

I realise now that what I was trying to get at was the question of how we came up with the concept in the first place, a bit late to ask about that now I suppose, but if anyone does want to offer their two cents on that, I'm interested.

 

[JoJo]

Depends what you mean by 'free'. We make choices all the time, big and small. I chose what I had for lunch today. The results of those choices though are determined by our genes, our upbringing, the situation we're in, how much information we know, whether that information is accurate or not and many more factors. With enough information, our choices could probably predicted perfectly. Are our choices truly 'free' then? Well, depends what you mean by 'free'. Our choices may be largely predetermined but we still choose them freely, and so I'd argue we have free will. I believe the universe is mostly deterministic, though possibly not entirely due to the randomness inherent in quantum physics, that though is a discussion for another thread.

 

[Coppernerves]

Depends what you mean by 'free'. We make choices all the time, big and small. I chose what I had for lunch today. The results of those choices though are determined by our genes, our upbringing, the situation we're in, how much information we know, whether that information is accurate or not and many more factors. With enough information, our choices could probably predicted perfectly. Are our choices truly 'free' then? Well, depends what you mean by 'free'. Our choices may be largely predetermined but we still choose them freely, and so I'd argue we have free will. I believe the universe is mostly deterministic, though possibly not entirely due to the randomness inherent in quantum physics, that though is a discussion for another thread.

When you say our choices are largely predetermined but still chosen "freely", what meaning of "freely" are you using there?

 

[JoJo]

Depends what you mean by 'free'. We make choices all the time, big and small. I chose what I had for lunch today. The results of those choices though are determined by our genes, our upbringing, the situation we're in, how much information we know, whether that information is accurate or not and many more factors. With enough information, our choices could probably predicted perfectly. Are our choices truly 'free' then? Well, depends what you mean by 'free'. Our choices may be largely predetermined but we still choose them freely, and so I'd argue we have free will. I believe the universe is mostly deterministic, though possibly not entirely due to the randomness inherent in quantum physics, that though is a discussion for another thread.

When you say our choices are largely predetermined but still chosen "freely", what meaning of "freely" are you using there?

As in, we still make the decision autonomously by ourselves, but the outcome of that decision is already largely predetermined by our genetic makeup, past experiences and the situation at hand.

 

[Baron_BJ]

I'm in agreement with JoJo, however I would also say that this means that "Free Will" and "Destiny" aren't necessarily mutually exclusive concepts, despite outwardly appearing to be.

 

[Arakasi]

No.
At least in part because I try to take the definition of 'free will' that I think is mostly used.

Free will to me is:
1. What results in someone being 'responsible' for one's actions, in a cosmic sense. I.e. nothing outside themselves caused them to do what they did.
2. What justifies punishment. 'He did it of his own free will, so he deserves whatever he gets'

As to how determinism and indeterminism apply:
The following statement is necessarily true: Either determinism is true, or indeterminism is true. P or NotP.
What is determinism? The doctrine that the universe is basically just a set of dominoes, one action causes other actions, causes other actions, and so on.
What is indeterminism? The doctrine that that isn't necessarily true in all cases, and that some randomness could be involved.

So the question is asked, can we, as just a domino in a system of dominoes be 'responsible' for our actions?
No, we are just a domino.
So the other question is asked, can we, as a part of a series of dominoes and dice be 'responsible' for our actions?
No, we are either caused by a prior action, or caused by a prior action and partially random.

Neither determinism nor indeterminism is comparable with free will, and as one of the two must be true, free will is therefore bunk. Either way the explanation for our actions ultimately lie outside ourselves and therefore violate notion no. 1 of free will.

Notion no.2 of free will, is basically just an optional add-on from no.1, but it demonstrates how belief in free will (under this definition) can lead to justification of non-pragmatic harm. For example, the needless torturing of a mass murdering terrorist before he is executed because he 'deserved it'.

We are all but machines. But we are very complex machines.

 

[Lil_Rimmy]

You know, I hate the never ending vortex of these threads, but I must say this:

I had the choice between a shit on a bread and a lovely bowl of beetroot soup. Now let's say someone know me. They can clearly tell which food I will go for. My own brain knows which is the better one to choose. My friends and family would tell me the right answer.

And yet I could still choose turd on grain for lunch.

Whilst there is no doubt all of our life and blah blah blah boring shit can decide what we choose and such - WE CAN ALWAYS CHOOSE THE OPPOSITE! Although I don't like banana's, I COULD decide to work as a banana tasting agent instead of a chocolate tasting agent - it's just a bad idea.

 

[Arakasi]

You know, I hate the never ending vortex of these threads, but I must say this:

I had the choice between a shit on a bread and a lovely bowl of beetroot soup. Now let's say someone know me. They can clearly tell which food I will go for. My own brain knows which is the better one to choose. My friends and family would tell me the right answer.

And yet I could still choose turd on grain for lunch.

Whilst there is no doubt all of our life and blah blah blah boring shit can decide what we choose and such - WE CAN ALWAYS CHOOSE THE OPPOSITE! Although I don't like banana's, I COULD decide to work as a banana tasting agent instead of a chocolate tasting agent - it's just a bad idea.

You do realise that's actually entirely irrelevant to the argument right? Sure, you can choose what you want, but what you want is either determined by prior causes or by prior causes + a random element.

 

[Meta 99]

Depends what you mean by 'free'. We make choices all the time, big and small. I chose what I had for lunch today. The results of those choices though are determined by our genes, our upbringing, the situation we're in, how much information we know, whether that information is accurate or not and many more factors. With enough information, our choices could probably predicted perfectly. Are our choices truly 'free' then? Well, depends what you mean by 'free'. Our choices may be largely predetermined but we still choose them freely, and so I'd argue we have free will. I believe the universe is mostly deterministic, though possibly not entirely due to the randomness inherent in quantum physics, that though is a discussion for another thread.

When you say our choices are largely predetermined but still chosen "freely", what meaning of "freely" are you using there?

As in, we still make the decision autonomously by ourselves, but the outcome of that decision is already largely predetermined by our genetic makeup, past experiences and the situation at hand.

We reach the outcome ourselves, but the outcome we choose is a result of things that have happened, so ultimatly free-will and a deterministic universe are the same thing.

 

[Meta 99]

Depends what you mean by 'free'. We make choices all the time, big and small. I chose what I had for lunch today. The results of those choices though are determined by our genes, our upbringing, the situation we're in, how much information we know, whether that information is accurate or not and many more factors. With enough information, our choices could probably predicted perfectly. Are our choices truly 'free' then? Well, depends what you mean by 'free'. Our choices may be largely predetermined but we still choose them freely, and so I'd argue we have free will. I believe the universe is mostly deterministic, though possibly not entirely due to the randomness inherent in quantum physics, that though is a discussion for another thread.

When you say our choices are largely predetermined but still chosen "freely", what meaning of "freely" are you using there?

As in, we still make the decision autonomously by ourselves, but the outcome of that decision is already largely predetermined by our genetic makeup, past experiences and the situation at hand.

We reach the outcome ourselves, but the outcome we choose is a result of things that have happened, so ultimatly free-will and a deterministic universe are the same thing.

 

[blazearmoru]

All our decisions, we decide from our values and our ability to detect possible options. Our decisions at best are mathematical, and random if not.

For everyone who thinks we have free will because we seem to be able to do whatever the hell we want :
I can pick up a brick and before I let go, I can explain how it has to choice to fall toward the sky and no one KNOWS what it'll choose before I let it go but I'm willing to bet you'd think that's stupid. To state that you have the free will to obey the physical properties and laws of the universe (your human brain, it's current knowledge, and the body's current state which boils down to the mathematical weighing of values) is stating that even a brick has free will.

Disclaimer : If free will is defined however as being able (or forced) to do what we want, then we all have have free will.

 

[Zip Loc]

I thought about this for a while, and came to this conclusion:

Free Will, noun:
1) free and independent choice; voluntary decision
2) Philosophy, the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.
(source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/free+will?s=t [Dictionary.com])
For the purposes of this discussion, I shall ignore definition 2, because I lack the proper versing in philosophy to adequately debate it.

Assuming free will is as defined in the dictionary, i.e. "free and independent choice; voluntary decision", then anyone who claimed to have free will, simply put, could not. Unless they happen to live in a lawless utopia, unbound by societal constraints, then free will is impossible, and anyone who claimed to have it, while fulfilling the second part of the definition, making a "voluntary decision" to state that they have free will, could not live in the circumstances required to have true free will without being completely divorced from how humans act to begin with. As it has been stated many times (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=are+humans+social+creatures), even by philosophers such as Aristotle, humans are social animals, and thus they thrive primarily on contact with other humans, by default forming a society with acceptable behaviours and taboos. Unless one was to live in a truly individualistic society, wherein nobody cared about the goings-on of any other member of this society, then "free and independent choice" could never occur, because every part of our being is shaped by some part of our environment, be it our parents, our society, or our surroundings.

So, my belief is that, within reason, everyone does have free will, in the sense that they have the ability to choose. However, nobody has true free will because we are shaped by our surroundings, our societies and our parents, and every time we communicate, we get nudged just a little bit in one direction or another, further removing us from the first part of the definition of free will, which is "free and independent choice".

TL;DR: Everyone has a basic form of free will in that they can make decisions. Nobody has true free will because we are shaped by our surroundings.

 

[averydeeadaccount]

If people don't have free will, than we can assume that because people think they have free will that it is advantageous to think yourself as having free will. It is generally held that questioning free will, say as an excuse for a crime, is insane, and that it is a problem if you do. If we did have free will, than while many people would think they don't have free will, they'd be wrong.

Given the choice between being both irrelevant, and either insane and correct, or wrong, and being either sane and wrong, or correct, one is faced with a very different dilemma.

The question isn't whether we have free will, that question can only be answered by saying whether we think we have free will. The real reason is whether we think we have free will, because that question can be answered by deciding whether we want to think we have free will. The question whether we have free will cannot be answered in regards to ones intent, and therefore is irrelevant to free will. The question of whether we think we have free will, by its very irrelevant nature, proves the existence of free will.

Because we might have free will, any free willed being might think it has free will, meaning it has no will in the regard, again proving the matter in question.

I think I think I have free will.
Therefore I have free will. Definitely.

 

[Arakasi]

Depends what you mean by 'free'. We make choices all the time, big and small. I chose what I had for lunch today. The results of those choices though are determined by our genes, our upbringing, the situation we're in, how much information we know, whether that information is accurate or not and many more factors. With enough information, our choices could probably predicted perfectly. Are our choices truly 'free' then? Well, depends what you mean by 'free'. Our choices may be largely predetermined but we still choose them freely, and so I'd argue we have free will. I believe the universe is mostly deterministic, though possibly not entirely due to the randomness inherent in quantum physics, that though is a discussion for another thread.

What I would call this is the distinction between 'freedom' aka, allowance of choice, and 'free will', the philosophical idea that leads to notions of responsibility and such.

 

[Malty Milk Whistle]

I cannot tell, mainly because how do 'we' even know what we think when we look at how we think
I used "we" Waaaaay too many times there.
I think free will is one of those things that everyone has an opinion on, yet no one actually understands fully.

 

[Arakasi]

I cannot tell, mainly because how do 'we' even know what we think when we look at how we think
I used "we" Waaaaay too many times there.
I think free will is one of those things that everyone has an opinion on, yet no one actually understands fully.

Anyone can say that about basically anything. Unless of course, you have an argument for it, perhaps something pointing out a paradox or problem in the reasoning of those posting, this form of argument is elitist (see xkcd [https://xkcd.com/774/] comic) and a fallacy.

 

[Rolaoi]

From a physical standpoint, I believe we have free will; but, it's painful, unnatural, rarely exercised and often fought against. It requires going against the grain of what makes a man a man and an animal and all the way down to the smallest particles. It's far too easy to allow repetition to dictate our actions.

 

[Bruce]

Not really.

In terms of evidence, all of it points in the exact opposite direction. We can see how decisions form within the brain, and how they are the results of physical forces.

We have the illusion of free will, much as we have the illusion of the larger universe operating on Newtonian or relativistic physics, but when you boil it down to the quantum level it is just that, an illusion.

 

[Rastrelly]

Problem is, this is a matter not only unfalsifiable, but even unverifiable. After each test in the same circumastances human mind gathers information and continues to process it, so it will be a DIFFERENT PERSON tested in each case. This makes question of free will more matter of personal philosophy then actual topic to discuss.

 

[Bertylicious]

Well yeah, 'blates. It's the cogito, innit? I think therefore I am.

Like, you are in your own head thinking all of your own thoughts. Even if you aren't you, even if we are, like, in the Matrix or a butterfly dreaming it's an entry-level wage slave there is still something, somewhere, doing that thinking.

Now if there is some other **** who is basically telling you lies about everything, and getting you to do the things you're doing then you've still got free will because even though they are fucking with your head it is still your head.

Unless you is saying that you don't think your own thoughts, in which case I think you need to lay off the ketamine bruv.