Poll: Overcritical: Female Leads

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NickCaligo42

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EDIT: One thing I'd like to point out is that skimpy or form-fitting clothes shouldn't be an area of discussion. Speaking from personal experience as a game modeler it's much easier and more practical to model form-fitting clothes than it is to make anything of significant complexity. Keep in mind that these game artists are working under strict polygon counts and animation specs and the character design has to reflect such.

I read an article on IGN recently about the top ten trends that are destroying video games. I was happy to see Gears of War prominently featured in more than one of these trends but thoroughly confused--as I usually am--by their "female leads" entry, where they pan a number of games for their use of leading female characters. To quote:

"It's not clever anymore; it's not special. It's become a bad cliche that is as predictable as it is ultimately degrading. Let's stop pretending that's it's still a unique feature."

Surprisingly the writer had absolutely nothing to say about space marines, but I digress. Something about this one just didn't feel right. It was difficult to tell what the writer was objecting to. On one hand it starts by picking apart the characters' physical appeal and fingers game companies for using them as a lure for horny gamers as Yahtzee does with the most recent Tomb Raider game. On the other hand the "worst recent offenders" listed are Mirror's Edge, Prince of Persia, and Resident Evil 5.

What? Really? The Tomb Raider: Underworld team spent MONTHS studying a model's ass to make sure Lara Croft's butt would bounce exactly the right way and they're picking some of the least most degrading uses of women in games to date and fingering them as degrading? Personally I think that those examples were unfair. Faith in Mirror's Edge seemed like a natural enough lead. I really couldn't see a man playing that part or being as sensitive to the changes in Faith's world as she was--nor for that matter could I see a woman in Marcus Fenix's shoes. Meanwhile for as much as I despise the new Prince of Persia game I can't say that the partner NPC mechanic would feel 100% natural with a big dude hugging the Prince or vomiting out flowers everywhere. Resident Evil 5's choice of having a female partner seems natural enough to me as well; it's like Malcolm Reynolds and Zoie. Somehow it just kind of makes sense.

I just don't get what this article is objecting to. Are we objecting to women being objectified and idealized? Are we objecting to women being employed as a political tool in the gaming market? Are we assuming that EVERY use of a woman in game narrative is for that purpose and that all game writers inherently have all-male casts in their imaginations? Is IGN imposing a quota on the number of games that are allowed to have leading or supporting female characters? Are we objecting to women being involved in games, PERIOD? o_O

All of these raise even more absurd questions. Are we supposed to pretend all characters are abstinent and that human beings don't have libidos when we write our stories? Would they prefer it if Lara Croft were morbidly obese or had bucked teeth and crossed eyes? Is that the sort of character they think we should want to play as?

I could go on with this for hours, but the real question at hand here is: are we really so jaded about games and game characters that we don't trust writers far enough to just HAPPEN to imagine female characters in certain roles as they write the script? That this is genuinely their vision and might in their mind be the best choice for the story?

I'll grant there's a lot of really legitimate criticisms you can make about women in video games and that too often they aren't realistically portrayed, but I feel skeptical about those criticisms as well. I think objectification is a two-way street. If you're going to pick apart Ada Wong you have to take the chainsaw to Leon Kennedy too. My girlfriend swoons over him more than I've seen ANY guy get hot over Lara Croft. In fact, the majority of attraction to game characters I've witnessed has been girls gawking at game guys, USUALLY of a type more effeminate and idealized than I've ever seen in my entire life. But in so many of these cases are guys who aren't attractive or idealized in some fashion really so objectionable or uncalled for? I wouldn't WANT Leon to be any different, myself.

I'm not completely in defense of objectification here. I draw a line at the point when it becomes absurd but the game takes itself seriously. Bloodrayne, Dead or Alive chicks, and Xenosaga, I'm looking at you. I think that a lot of the visuals for these characters, otherwise, seems pretty appropriate to the storytelling genres that they're a part of. Lara Croft SHOULD be this idealized but very outdoorsy-looking woman. I could see them taking her down a bust size or two and maybe making her clothes look somewhat less uncomfortably tight, but somehow she just seems appropriate given the tone of the story, the way Harrison Ford made perfect sense as Indiana Jones--who I WILL ADD did plenty of womanizing and, although he isn't quite James Bond, had plenty of sexual intonations about him.

Maybe that's a stretch. I certainly never LIKED Lara Croft, let alone liked her as much as I like Indiana Jones, but the point is still there. While too many characters aren't realistically portrayed and I think it would be healthy to see some girls who I could actually believe are girls and--maybe more to the point--who I can actually believe are properly dressed for their roles or represent archetypes women might actually WANT to fill the way male game characters fill archetypes men like, I don't think abject down-to-earth realism is always appropriate in favor of the exaggerations we so often see and I think that a lot of our criticisms in this area are misguided and high-minded nonsense. We may as well be criticizing comic books for their over-idealization of people in general at this point.
 

Trivun

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I feel that gaming includes a veritable mix of portrayals of female leads. For example, Tomb Raider, Mirror's Edge, resident Evil and Final Fantasy X-2 are all completely different, but have a common element - they have female leads who are (in all 4 cases) not only exceptionally good looking (and in some cases scantily-clad) but also happen to be strong characters in their own right, who face the same problems male leads face in similar games and overcome them (depending on the player's skill) just as, or more, efficiently as said male characters. We are definitely blowing this out of proportion. Does it matter too much if a female lead is good or bad looking, or what and how much they wear? As long as the character is a decent character and preferably fitting the idea of a real life person in that situation, male and female, I feel that it shouldn't matter too much about the appearance of said character. This seems a little too close to feminisim for me.
 

PirateKing

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I'm not really sure what to say. I think all media with a plot needs a diverse group of characters. I think that usually includes girls.
I don't understand the real problem.
It's hard to say how people would react realisticall in the situations in the games.
I like Anya in Gears. I liked it at the end of 2 when Marcus looks over into the chopper and she stands up. We got to see another side of Marcus.
 

RebelRising

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They also listed Alyx Vance as one of the objectified female characters. You know, the Alyx Vance? The headstrong, yet sweet-natured and completely natural feeling sidekick of Gordon's? From Half-life 2? They put her on there.

That's like putting Stalin on a list of ineffective rulers. It's just not true. Okay, short rant over. Ignore this and debate excitedly and deeply into subject if you must.
 

Gamer137

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It's IGN. What did you expect? But yes, it uses some bad examples.

I said other. Although I find it annoying when female leads are too heavily used as sex appeal for added attention, many games use female characters fairly. It is a problem, but not a industry destroying cliche.
 

NickCaligo42

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RebelRising said:
Ignore this and debate excitedly and deeply into subject if you must.
I'd rather not.

I don't think the point of that particular listing was to list objectified female leads so much as strong ones who take an active role in the game, but I do agree that it was pretty incensing that they'd pick on Alyx, who was one of the few well-written and likeable characters on that list.
 

Hurray Forums

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NickCaligo42 said:
I'm not completely in defense of objectification here. I draw a line at the point when it becomes absurd but the game takes itself seriously. Bloodrayne, Dead or Alive chicks, and Xenosaga, I'm looking at you.
I really have to ask what exactly is wrong with Xenosaga's female lead? What has it done that makes it deserve a place next to games like Dead or Alive?
 

geldonyetich

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Yes and no.

Yes, girls in games are often used as sex appeal, which is the "evil businessman" vote.

No, they only do it because it works, and that it works is ultimately a flaw in the human condition.

If there was a "yes, we're blowing it out of proportion" option that'd be closer to the truth.
 

NickCaligo42

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Hurray Forums said:
I really have to ask what exactly is wrong with Xenosaga's female lead? What has it done that makes it deserve a place next to games like Dead or Alive?
KOS-MOS and T-Elos fighting is among the more perverse and disgusting things I've seen sexually in a game. Two android women in outfits that'd make strippers blush, with anorexic ultra-long-legged supermodel proportions, fighting to the death in super-high-heels and putting each other under skull-crushing levels of stress, the whole while COMPLETELY expressionless... something about it just makes my skin crawl in a most unsettling way.
 

Hurray Forums

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NickCaligo42 said:
Hurray Forums said:
I really have to ask what exactly is wrong with Xenosaga's female lead? What has it done that makes it deserve a place next to games like Dead or Alive?
KOS-MOS and T-Elos fighting is among the more perverse and disgusting things I've seen sexually in a game. Two android women in outfits that'd make strippers blush, with anorexic ultra-long-legged supermodel proportions, fighting to the death in super-high-heels and putting each other under skull-crushing levels of stress, the whole while COMPLETELY expressionless... something about it just makes my skin crawl in a most unsettling way.
KOS-MOS and T-ELOS aren't female, they're androids, expecting them to be an accurate portrayal of real life women is rather silly and wouldn't fit with the story. Of course they are going to be expressionless and capable of doing things that a real person couldn't do, that is kind of the point of making a robot in the first place. As for the outfits and super model proportions yes they might be a bit strange but they make sense in the context of the story. The person who designed KOS-MOS" outfits is obsessed with her, sees her as superhuman, and is insecure about her own body image. Of course whatever KOS-MOS ends up looking like is going to be unrealistically good looking. It's also stated a couple times in conversations with Vector members that she looks so pretty to make her interactions with humans more successful. This is extremely similar to how real life men and women dress themselves as pretty as possible during social occasions. T-ELOS' appearance is meant to be a copy of KOS-MOS' appearance so it makes sense that it would follow the same basic theme. It seems to me like you are complaining about things that are not females not acting like females and character design that fits the story which isn't a complaint I can understand or sympathize with.
 

Gamer137

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Indigo_Dingo said:
Gamer137 said:
It's IGN. What did you expect?
Whats that supposed to mean?
Im biased against most major video game publications. I have read a few articles over the years and hated them all, but im not a regular viewer.
 
Jan 3, 2009
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IGN has one person named hillary on their team. But its a dude.

I dont know what to say. You want me to say that We immediatly have to make Lara croft ugly and make all the women in the world feel special and all that hugly bugly crap.

That is not how it works. I dont want to play someone who needs a paper bag over their head, It just makes it not fun. Lets face it, People like pretty people, people hate ugly people. Its how the way the world works, Its how our civilization functions properly.

Men are more demoralized than women but men dont care. Women need to learn that from men. Do I have the brawn of marcus fenix? No, do I care? Not at all. Forcing a Developer to make someone ugly is not how creative thinking is rewarded. Everything in the world will be derogatory to someone in the world. We cant have a thread every week saying that Lara Croft makes women feel sad. We should just play the game for its gameplay!

So I voted for we are blowing this out of proportion.
 

Stewie Plisken

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I don't quite understand what the article's writer is getting at; how is a female lead amongst the trend that destroys video games as a medium? I mean, sure, a sexy lead is what most developers go for (and if you think it's just women, you're wrong, as my friend Nathan Drake will happily tell you), but how is it a "trend" in any way? How many games with female leads, and hot ones at that, did we have this year? I remember Tomb Raider... Mirror's Edge... What else?
 

Trace2010

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It's a pointless argument to make...even if someone actually came out with an "Ugly Betty" of video-gaming, would game developers waste their time constructing it?
 

Avatar Roku

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It makes no sense to me. What do they want? No female characters whatsoever? I've got news for them: There are women in real life, so any game emulating real life will need them. I don't get what they're bitching about. I mean, sure, ***** about Lara Croft, or the girls from Dead or Alive. But Faith? Elika? Really?
 

oopsdidn'tmeanto

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Alright, while I agree that many lead female characters in gaming history were often spawned for sex appeal, I have an example where this actually seemed appropriate, (in my opinion, anyways...) While not quite a lead character, she is vital to the story.

Maria from Silent Hill 2.

She tends to scream a lot in cutscenes with a mildly annoying voice and an actor that often misuses emphasis in her words, (although this is Silent Hill 2, every person had problems with acting) She is scantily clad. There is something that just never seems quite right when she is catching her breath after tailing James across Hell and then some. She gets in the way of a swinging weapon or stray bullet. She is a stripper. And yet, her precense makes James even more sympathetic.
Hell, the first time she was killed, part of me wanted to jump into the screen and hug James. And the first time she came back- to use a cliche term- my heart leapt into my throat. Additionally, though she acted a bit slutty, (she was a perverse clone of Mary created to torture James with both guilt and sex), she seemeed to care for Laura, even if this was added only to mirror Mary.

I am not implying that I ignore such characters, (Soul Calibur, Rumble Roses, Bloodrayne, put some clothes on, you harlots!), but not every female lead is a scantily-clad horny schoolgirl with the slight possibility of also being an STD farm. Heather Mason (another Silent Hill reference, I'm on a roll!) kicked major ass. Namine was girl you could truly sympathize and Larxene was a complete ***** that I couldn't help but love anyways. Lara Croft, though a bit overdone at times, appears natural in her role. Aerith Gainsborough and Tifa Lockhart were characterized wonderfully. I have a feeling that I am the only person that did not see Ashley Graham as annoying. She was a normal girl, (okay, the president's daughter, maybe not that normal, but still...), caught in a hellish world with only one person to protect her, and she often rushed to his side the moment he was harmed with genuine concern. (Although, I have a bone to pick with the genius that wrote the dialogue for the ending cutscene of RE4...)

Alyx? Are you fucking KIDDING ME?
 

Joeshie

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Who cares? Normal portrayals of ANYBODY, male or female, is a rare occurrence in a video game. 95% of all video game characters are shallow archtypes that have been done before.

But hey, that's usually ok. I play games for the gameplay; having good characters to go along with it is just gravy.
 

willard3

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There are some games that shamelessly use hott girls to sell games. Tomb Raider, much as I like it, is one of those...also Dead or Alive, Heavenly Sword (it's God of War but with moar boobies!), Dead or Alive, and did I mention Dead or Alive?