Poll: Overcritical: Female Leads

[Darth Marsden]

Rather then insult whoever made the list which originated this thread in the first place, I'm gonna look at this list [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_computer_and_video_games_with_female_protagonists] and just pick out the games which I feel exploited women.

Charlie's Angels (I'm just guessing - I've seen the films, never played the game)
Dead or Alive
Final Fantasy X-2 (J-Pop and scantily-clad team-mates FTW!)
Fear Effect 2: Double Helix
Golden Axe (Questionable - that was the style of the times. Or so I'm lead to believe, anyway)
Heavy Metal: FAKK 2
Sonic series (Also questionable, but then again what the hell is Rouge the Bat's bra size?)
Soul Calibur series (Particularly Ivy)
Tomb Raider (Again, questionable. Depends who you ask, really.)
Vinyl Goddess from Mars (!)

...I mentioned a few fighting games there, but pretty much every fighting game always features women in somewhat degrading roles. And, of course, there's the Lula series, which needs not be mentioned again.

But overall, I don't think leading women are being portrayed negatively as a rule. Sometimes they are, but it doesn't happen as often people think and when it does occur, it's usually to shift games to the male demographic.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Well, let's just have a think of all the games that feature a sarcastic, anti-social, muscles you can crack walnuts in, dumb as an ox, expendable space marine.

Not really a positive portrayal of men is it?

As for positive female portayals: NOLF 1/2, Half Life 2, Jagged Alliance 1/2, X-Com, Starcraft, Freedom Force, Unreal Tournament, Cooking Mama, Vampire: Bloodlines, Joanna Dark...

Remember a lot of the FPS/role-playing games have no differentiation between male and female characters.

 

[Vinculi]

I'm yet to play Mirror's Edge, but Faith doesn't seem to be sexualised at all in media.
Suggesting Yuna as a strong character was odd, X-2 felt like the result of Final Fantasy X having a one night stand with Sailor Moon (transformation sequences, i'm looking at you).

I wouldn't have blamed any of this on Samus though, it seems like Nintendo takes extra effort to prevent her sexualisation, seriously, we didn't even know Samus was a girl at first.

 

[GloatingSwine]

and then he brings up yuna in FFX-2 as a STRONG character? seriously? at least in FFX she had conviction and a sense of self-awareness and decency. in X-2 square decided that since she became the de facto spiritual leader of the world and lost her love interest, the most reasonable way to develop her character was to have her traipse around the world three-quarters-naked, barely taking the plot of her own game seriously until the end, when it looks like something sad and dramatic might happen. then yuna LITERALLY says

Spoiler

"No! This ending sucks. I'm changing it."

and then the fabric of reality warps around her so the story can have a happy ending. where no one gets hurt or feels bad. what a crock.

You know what, I think that scene is one of the reasons FFX-2 is better than pretty much every other FF game since FFIX.

Because it turns around to the tradition of wangsty emo wankbag heroes that started with Cloud and Fei on the Playstation and says, straight up "you suck, take your wangst and piss off". Frankly, I'm fed up with angst and suck in RPGs.

 

[NickCaligo42]

Also, ign most of the time has no idea of what they're talking about, so i wouldn't pay a lot of attention to them.

Maybe so, but you have to admit it made for a good spark for this discussion.

You know what, I think that scene is one of the reasons FFX-2 is better than pretty much every other FF game since FFIX.

Because it turns around to the tradition of wangsty emo wankbag heroes that started with Cloud and Fei on the Playstation and says, straight up "you suck, take your wangst and piss off". Frankly, I'm fed up with angst and suck in RPGs.

Frankly I wasn't a fan of FFX-2, but I think it gets a bad rap for too many of the wrong reasons. It's supposed to be taken tongue-in-cheek. It's supposed to be taken in a comedic tone with a grain of salt, not seriously. They weren't interested in a tragic ending with pretensions to false depth, they were interested in poking fun at themselves and at the fans who just couldn't let Tidus die. The whole idea of a X-2 was patently ridiculous and Squenix knew it. Things like these people tend to misunderstand frequently. They think about products in terms of what they WANT them to be instead of what they're meant to be, and I think that's where a lot of these misunderstandings come from. That's why I say criticizing games for certain levels of objectification is like criticizing superheroes and comic books for much the same. At the point that people take these things that seriously I believe, as they said in the '90's, that a "chill pill" is prescribed.

I can see a woman in Marcus Fenix's shoes. Easy.

I honestly can't. Marcus--oddly enough, coming from such a hugely testosterone-inflated game that I positively despise--demonstrates a kind of sensitivity that I only ever could really see in a male character.

The issue is they need to hire reputable writers to produce their scripts and dialogue instead of the fan fiction enthusiasts they employed to write Gears of War, GTA, Halo and Crysis.

Speaking as a game design student you'd be shocked at how difficult that actually is to accomplish. The storyline is part of a presentation layer and needn't be thought out too thoroughly for the game to make the slightest bit of sense. Much like MST3K only needed excuses to tell jokes, games only need excuses for there to be gameplay and a coherent theme to those excuses. That's positively the bare minimum, but if the market has proven anything it's that this works and that gamers tend to aggressively favor that model, clamoring, "I want a game, not a movie!" The production is so busy focusing on gameplay balance, level design, and trying to work all the bugs out of the product that it just doesn't seem important enough to warrant a writer in the budget. After all, the product is a game, not a movie, and the game attracts people more than the story. At least, that's what all too many people THINK, but I think we all know better than that.

The thing that really gets my goat is that every hit the page gets is one that could have gone to the far superior article, [a href=http://www.cracked.com/article_15748_gamers-manifesto.html]A Gamer's Manifesto.[/a] An article which also mentions important issues like short-sighted business instead of relying solely on half-baked game design flaws.

I've read this one, too.

 

[JordanJohnson]

It was classic. I bought Mirrors Edge (And enjoyed it for a while) and a mate came over, he said "What's this game?" So I told him "Mirror's Edge" And he watched in amazement then Merc said "Go on Girl keep running!" And my mate yelled out "You play as a chick in this game!"

That's how much of a shock it was to him.

We need more Female Leads. Like Cortana, she's hot but you can't say it because you look like a nerd... Oh crap...

 

[cobra_ky]

I wouldn't have blamed any of this on Samus though, it seems like Nintendo takes extra effort to prevent her sexualisation, seriously, we didn't even know Samus was a girl at first.

and yet when you beat the game fast enough you get to see her in a bikini.

You know what, I think that scene is one of the reasons FFX-2 is better than pretty much every other FF game since FFIX.

Because it turns around to the tradition of wangsty emo wankbag heroes that started with Cloud and Fei on the Playstation and says, straight up "you suck, take your wangst and piss off". Frankly, I'm fed up with angst and suck in RPGs.

i guess i like my rpgs to have real conflict and personal development. i don't remember x-2 having much wangst either, but that probably because the male cast was so ancillary and unmemorable.

 

[GloatingSwine]

i guess i like my rpgs to have real conflict and personal development. i don't remember x-2 having much wangst either, but that probably because the male cast was so ancillary and unmemorable.

Personal development doesn't have to include woe is me emo bullshit, though that's generally what most often gets confused for "real conflict and personal development". Which is what FFX-2 exists to lampoon. That and shedding Yuna's previous "don't speak unless spoken to" yamato nadeshiko staff chick personality. Seriously, 90% of the wangst of FFX would have been avoided had any two characters actually talked to each other at any point. FFX-2 makes her assertive and outgoing, which most people don't like, especially if they're male. Because Yuna all of a sudden has bigger balls than them.

 

[I3uster]

The best female lead was cate archer from NOLF1+2, she kicked as and wasnt stereotyped at all...

 

[JokerGrin]

I voted no, blowing it out of proportion.
For every large-breasted, incredibly sexy and athletic fantasy female lead (Bloodrayne ) you have a genuinely strong, realistic and determined woman such as Joanna Dark (from Perfect Dark). Carla Valenti (Fahrenheit/Indigo Prophecy) is another example of a main female character done right. Very nice to look at, but still realistic and strong.

The whole Lara Croft thing seems very irresponsible though. People are quite right to be offended by things such as that ass study.

 

[Cheesebob]

Ah crap, all my opinions have been nicked.

Great minds think a like I suppose...

Well I voted for the proportion blowing selection

 

[Blind0bserver]

On one hand it starts by picking apart the characters' physical appeal and fingers game companies for using them as a lure for horny gamers as Yahtzee does with the most recent Tomb Raider game. On the other hand the "worst recent offenders" listed are Mirror's Edge, Prince of Persia, and Resident Evil 5.

What? Really? The Tomb Raider: Underworld team spent MONTHS studying a model's ass to make sure Lara Croft's butt would bounce exactly the right way and they're picking some of the least most degrading uses of women in games to date and fingering them as degrading? Personally I think that those examples were unfair. Faith in Mirror's Edge seemed like a natural enough lead. I really couldn't see a man playing that part or being as sensitive to the changes in Faith's world as she was--nor for that matter could I see a woman in Marcus Fenix's shoes.

IGN listed Mirror's Edge as a game that objectifies women? How, exactly? Well, perhaps "objectify" isn't quite the right term because according to your OP they don't really elaborate on what their problem even is. You did quote them on the subject, and as a refresher this is what they had to say:

"It's not clever anymore; it's not special. It's become a bad cliche that is as predictable as it is ultimately degrading. Let's stop pretending that's it's still a unique feature."

After a re-read of that comment a couple of times it almost seems like their justification for listing Mirror's Edge is the fact that the game's lead character is a woman. There simply isn't any grounds for an argument here. From the sound of it IGN is claiming that female characters as leads are a fad or some such nonsense. Of course I haven't had my morning coffee today so I could be assuming too much, but they didn't exactly leave much explanation in the first place.

After all, Faith from Mirror's Edge is almost the opposite of Lara Croft, if not a more practical version of what Lara should be. Faith isn't built like a supermodel and she isn't scantily clad in tight-fitting clothing. As far as the superficial argument goes, that's really the end of it, but it goes even deeper. This Faith isn't a treasure hunter, a highly trained agent or some warrior with a sword and a leather outfit, she's a regular person who had a rough life. Besides the fact that she's a parkour runner there isn't anything spectacular about her. No superpowers, no D-cups, nothing. If anything I'd say she's an ideal female lead in a game because she's actually realistic.

 

[not_tragedi]

Tossing this one in there: think about the male leads in games as well. The earliest games and many of them now feature guys who are built, trained assassins, have access to every kind of weapon and know how to function them, are incredibly intelligent (for the most part) and have no issue at all getting close to whatever female is in their way. The objectification of women in video games goes hand-in-hand with that of men in games. Do you think Kratos from God of War would be having all these random quick-time sex scenes with bare breasted Greek women if he looked like Gordon Freeman?

The argument goes both ways AND for both sexes. And personally, I don't think it makes that much of a difference. How you interpret what you see is defined by you and you alone. Objectivity is objective to the viewer.

 

[Axolotl]

IGN listed Mirror's Edge as a game that objectifies women? How, exactly? Well, perhaps "objectify" isn't quite the right term because according to your OP they don't really elaborate on what their problem even is. You did quote them on the subject, and as a refresher this is what they had to say:

No, they didn't if you read the article the OP is talking about you'd see that they're compliant is with the idea that including a Female protagonist is something on it's own that is original and edgy and that the game should be praised for doing so.

 

[cobra_ky]

i guess i like my rpgs to have real conflict and personal development. i don't remember x-2 having much wangst either, but that probably because the male cast was so ancillary and unmemorable.

Personal development doesn't have to include woe is me emo bullshit, though that's generally what most often gets confused for "real conflict and personal development". Which is what FFX-2 exists to lampoon.

you're right, it doesn't have to include that. but it does have to include more depth than "my boyfriend's gone and i can't accept it."

i guess it's possible that FFX-2 is a clever parody of the RPG genre, but honestly i don't think square is that clever.

That and shedding Yuna's previous "don't speak unless spoken to" yamato nadeshiko staff chick personality. Seriously, 90% of the wangst of FFX would have been avoided had any two characters actually talked to each other at any point. FFX-2 makes her assertive and outgoing, which most people don't like, especially if they're male. Because Yuna all of a sudden has bigger balls than them.

i like assertive, outgoing women. i don't like it when women go from "yamato nadeshiko staff chick" to "assertive and outgoing gun chick" for no reason whatsoever. if you're going to play to a stereotype at least be consistent, or have a compelling story reason why they've completely changed in the sequel.

I voted no, blowing it out of proportion.
For every large-breasted, incredibly sexy and athletic fantasy female lead (Bloodrayne ) you have a genuinely strong, realistic and determined woman such as Joanna Dark (from Perfect Dark). Carla Valenti (Fahrenheit/Indigo Prophecy) is another example of a main female character done right. Very nice to look at, but still realistic and strong.

carla valenti was cool until she decided

Spoiler

she wanted to have sex with the dead main character for whatever reason.

After all, Faith from Mirror's Edge is almost the opposite of Lara Croft, if not a more practical version of what Lara should be. Faith isn't built like a supermodel and she isn't scantily clad in tight-fitting clothing. As far as the superficial argument goes, that's really the end of it, but it goes even deeper. This Faith isn't a treasure hunter, a highly trained agent or some warrior with a sword and a leather outfit, she's a regular person who had a rough life. Besides the fact that she's a parkour runner there isn't anything spectacular about her. No superpowers, no D-cups, nothing. If anything I'd say she's an ideal female lead in a game because she's actually realistic.

she's just a regular person who can defeat heavily armed, highly trained officers in unarmed combat.

 

[ElTigreNegro]

Saying that FFX-2 was trying to be a spoof of the genre would be giving the game too much credit, for an actual light hearted spoof of RPGs, and one done right, just play Threads of Fate. It's obvious that FFX-2 is dead serious about it's cheesy plot and it's lame characters. But the real problem with that game is, beyond other things, that it's boring as hell to play. The main quest is insipid enough, and the side-quests are even worst. They even took away blitzball for some half-baked idea of "tactical" blitzball that it's even worst from what it sounds.

 

[NickCaligo42]

she's just a regular person who can defeat heavily armed, highly trained officers in unarmed combat.

Not in my experience.

 

[NickCaligo42]

Snip

Trying really hard not to get snappy over this one. Personally, I just don't agree. If you an look at the series and see this in it, fine, but I look at it and don't think of KOS-MOS as being designed by a woman with body insecurities and and an obsession for making her work perfect so much as being designed by an artist and a series of writers who had more than their fair share of fetishes...

 

[Cheesus333]

I really couldn't see a man playing that part or being as sensitive to the changes in Faith's world as she was--nor for that matter could I see a woman in Marcus Fenix's shoes.

On the contrary: Jacknife and Faith are very similar - I can see myself playing the game in his shoes. Similarly, Sentinel Lyons or Reilly (Fallout 3) are fairly similar to Marcus.