Poll: Sexism and Japan

[grassgremlin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbSL2wvlq0Q

Here's a vid courtesy of Gaijin Goombah in the style of Moviebob's "A Big Picture" series about Japan and it's Views of Sexism.

Bringing to the escapist forums because, It's an issue that will interest many.

Edit: Option 1 is I agree.
Edit 2 : Guys calm down. I didn't know this video would be that controversial.
Edit 3: Omitted "Actual Research from the topic.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

His citation of Tatemae and Honne as though these were arguments in and of themselves marks him out as yet another tourist who thinks being here for a scant 3 years (typical duration of a JET Programme stay) makes him an expert in all things Japanese.

I'd say his initial factual claims are fairly accurate (re: availability of pornography despite it being censored, sexually-themed gag gifts, etc.), but his analysis of why that difference from the US exists and what that means for gaming relies on shallow stereotypes that may be new for people who don't pay much attention to Japan but are pretty much the same old canards that have been passed through the ex-pat community here as though they were gospel for the last couple decades.

Rather than nit-pick him point-by-point I'm simply going to say that it is absurd to pretend that Japan can be described as a uniform collective. Just like many people here would be annoyed by a hypothetical Japanese person saying, "Westerners are loud, selfish, and don't care about anyone else's feelings", we should be annoyed by anyone coming from our side of the cultural divide who thinks they can explain the Japanese as a single, uniform whole. Japanese game developers who depict female characters as sexually objectified need to be discussed as the individuals who chose to design their characters in that manner, not as "Japan".

Okay, I have a few questions since this is the type of thing that interests me and I can trust you for information. Sorry if it seems too stream of consciousness but I'm slight distracted.
-Okay, so you say his analysis of Japanese culture in gaming is wrong, so what do you say, in general terms, is the difference from the states and what do their views mean towards gaming.

-the sex paradigm is so odd for me because on the one hand, we have a massive lack of the physical act if the birth rates are anything to go by but they seem to depict it as natural and healthy and something that is not too taboo for society. what are the sources of this paradigm: are the religious differences insignificant? Are the demands of raising a kid so great there that they don't do it despite the more natural depiction in society?

-What are the dividing lines between how sex is viewed; is it generational, regional or both. From the stereotype of anime hikkikomori, a very small portion of the younger population is very perverted but i'm not sure what that means for the non-otaku/hikkikomori teenage demographic. As you have said, the older generation has it's own preconceptions that kind of clashes with our current society but are there larger differences? I also heard that the Kansai area is typically more matriarchal in family structure from a culture textbook but I'm not sure if this is accurate or if it has any impact what so ever?

-If honne and tatemae is not an argument in and of itself, then is it a way to add evidence to the general interactions of Japan as a conformist society or am I off base and should just consider honne and tatemae as a very small facet of Japan?

-You said that most of what we think of Japan comes from expatriates. How has society changed from the stereotypes of the past?

P.S. I made a question for an answer column on Anime News Network regarding sexual themes in anime here [https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/answerman/2014-10-17/.79897]

Hope this gives more context to Japan.

 

[sataricon]

Where is the i agree option?

 

[Therumancer]

Well, I think the problem is that your generally pitting a certain view of the USA held by SJWs against Japanese Culture, which in a lot of respects IS Western culture devoid of a lot of the political BS. A lot has been written over the years about how Japan has no real culture of it's own any more and has taken nearly everything from the US in one way or another, which I won't rehash here since it leads to an entirely different discussion.

At the end of the day it should be noted that in reality men and women tend to like the same things when it comes to science fiction, fantasy, and other genera fare. These so called "hyper sexualized" characters are pretty normal when it comes to the ones women create on their own, as fantasy protagonists tend to represent a physical ideal, and that includes a sexual ideal as well. For example Conan was not average looking either. As a general rule you have a lot of radical feminists and SJWS following them who are pushing the whole "body image" thing, oftentimes it seems to me out of some women being jealous of others. As a basic rule the "hotter" a girl is the less of an issue she has with "body image issues" unless she loses it somehow (some former model might say QQ about eating disorders but usually only AFTER she's no longer modeling... or in rare cases when she has political ambitions and has already made more money than she will likelyt ever be able to spend). Exceptions exist of course, they always do. The only reason why it seems "shocking" that women would think positively of Cutey Honey (I've seen almost all of Go Ngai's work) is because of how loud feminists and supporting SJWS have been allowed to yell through the media, with the opposition being heavily shut down and prevented from having many platforms. I mean when you consider a model of a perfect girl who has wild adventures... you know Barbie, has been a wildly popular toy, it shouldn't shock anyone that Cutey Honey would likewise be fairly popular when her whole gimmick is that she's a gorgeous android that can shapeshift (including costume) into various forms to gain different powers to fight the forces of evil. When you look at fantasy novels directed at women it's very similar, ditto for artwork created by female artists, and of course we all know about the tendencies of teen girls and the "Mary Sue" complex that comes out when they get into creative writing a lot of the time.

We see all the same stuff going on in the US, but the media likes to present things differently for political reasons, and those most swayed by the media tend to react to it like it's reality. Japan's media is simply more representative of the attitudes of it's society, the US would likely be similar if we ever managed to balance the media out and stop giving weird social agendas disproportionate attention and platforms.

I mean let's put it this way, with all the things going on in the world people crusading for Barbie to have "more realistic dimensions" (when she is supposed to be an idealistic character) being front page news alongside thousands dying from Ebola, our armies fighting in The Middle East, and nations like China and Russia moving on the US, it kind of shows how borked we've gotten. Heck someone else already put up a message about how it became a national issue when a girl pointed a crayon in school and went "bang bang" or something. When fringes have this much of a voice in society it's not surprising things can become confused... and sometimes having a sort of cultural mirror in the form of nations like Japan that have a weird love/hate relationship with us can be a good thing and a reality check.

The simplest way I can say it is that while it's styled very differently Cutey Honey (or at least the version I know) covers a lot of the same territory as "She-Ra", the biggest difference other than setting perhaps being that She-Ra has one secret identity, where Cutey Honey can be anyone she wants to (though always delivers the killing blow in her red haired form, which is perhaps her true, default, form). Basically a physically ideal, sci-fi based female super hero. Decades ago we'd have no real problem with this and wouldn't have found it shocking if girls said "Well Yeah, She-Ra is one of my ideals". The fact that we are shocked by the equivalent today shows how far we've fallen and how crazy we have allowed the media and our culture to get.

 

[grassgremlin]

No "agree" option?

He raises some good points is suppose to be agree, but I added a "I agree" option if you feel that's seperate.

Edit: Looks Like I can't ad a option. Okay, screw it. Option 1 is I agree.

 

[grassgremlin]

Where is the i agree option?

Option 1 is I agree.

 

[Something Amyss]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbSL2wvlq0Q

Here's a vid courtesy of Gaijin Goombah in the style of Moviebob's "A Big Picture" series about Japan and it's Views of Sexism.

Bringing to the escapist forums because, It's an issue that will interest many.

This is worse than his half-ass defense of racism.

"I'm sick of these closed-minded generalisations from the people I just generalised Let's generalise more people!"

And then let's bring "malice" into things....

Because screw honesty, am I right, guys?

EDIT: *sigh*, let me back up for a second. This once again appears to be a video by someone who thinks a mention of "sexism" immediately means that we think there's some big bad conspiracy to oppress women, or that sexism immediately indicates hate or something similar. However, given his racism/xenophobia video came down to "it's just their culture," which isn't a defense of racism, I still find it incredibly freaking stupid. Especially in the light of the above generalisiations.

None of his defenses seem to actually address a sexist society or sexism in media. Yes, I'm including the "positive role model" one that resembles some of the excuses for minstrel shows back in the day, and that's exactly why I'm including it. Like his previous video, this isn't so much "why Japan isn't X" but "why Japan is, but I won't call it that."

Dude loves Japan. I understand that. But he often comes off as an apologist in the same way that a lot of gamers have misconstrued criticism of their favourite games as attacks or accusations beyond the boundary of the criticism.

 

[grassgremlin]

His citation of Tatemae and Honne as though these were arguments in and of themselves marks him out as yet another tourist who thinks being here for a scant 3 years (typical duration of a JET Programme stay) makes him an expert in all things Japanese.

I'd say his initial factual claims are fairly accurate (re: availability of pornography despite it being censored, sexually-themed gag gifts, etc.), but his analysis of why that difference from the US exists and what that means for gaming relies on shallow stereotypes that may be new for people who don't pay much attention to Japan but are pretty much the same old canards that have been passed through the ex-pat community here as though they were gospel for the last couple decades.

Rather than nit-pick him point-by-point I'm simply going to say that it is absurd to pretend that Japan can be described as a uniform collective. Just like many people here would be annoyed by a hypothetical Japanese person saying, "Westerners are loud, selfish, and don't care about anyone else's feelings", we should be annoyed by anyone coming from our side of the cultural divide who thinks they can explain the Japanese as a single, uniform whole. Japanese game developers who depict female characters as sexually objectified need to be discussed as the individuals who chose to design their characters in that manner, not as "Japan".

That's an interesting place, but what about the camp who generalizes the entirety of japan as sexist. Heck, even the camp who seems upset that social justice in america wants every country to bend to there will?

I don't want to sound confrontational, so I'd need to get some answers to what it all means. I get when you say, one dev doesn't speak for all japan, but those who call sexist will often cite all japan as a deeply sexist and messed up culture.

Where does the values of sex lie?

Edit: Do you think Tropes vs Women should extend to japan in some manner? Like, have it translate and have game devs in japan pay attention to it?

 

[grassgremlin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbSL2wvlq0Q

Here's a vid courtesy of Gaijin Goombah in the style of Moviebob's "A Big Picture" series about Japan and it's Views of Sexism.

Bringing to the escapist forums because, It's an issue that will interest many.

This is worse than his half-ass defense of racism.

"I'm sick of these closed-minded generalisations from the people I just generalised Let's generalise more people!"

And then let's bring "malice" into things....

Because screw honesty, am I right, guys?

I didn't know Gaijin Goombah was so hotly debated. I literally was not expecting people to be this upset by this video.
Goodness. Can someone explain to me? Is he like, satan or something. I'm so confused now.

 

[Something Amyss]

That's an interesting place, but what about the camp who generalizes the entirety of japan as sexist.

Entirety, or the culture overall? Because I can't speak to each Japanese person, but Japan does have cultural issues with sexism. Both the issues they have with groping on subways and their attempts to address it are indicative. Are we perfect? No.

Heck, even the camp who seems upset that social justice in america wants every country to bend to there will?

Wonder how they'd feel if Japan made it legal to screw children again, if they're so much against western "social justice."

I mean, I'm not trying to conflate your position or the one you are talking about to support of pedophilia, but I think people quickly forget that this was a thing. But at the same time, if the laws reverted to pre-western influence, would you be okay with them screwing kids? Would the idea of "social justice" trying to "bend" countries still apply or be a bad thing?

You know, this (women in media) isn't pedophilia or genital mutilation, but I am always curious as to how far the moral relativism goes.

 

[sataricon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbSL2wvlq0Q

Here's a vid courtesy of Gaijin Goombah in the style of Moviebob's "A Big Picture" series about Japan and it's Views of Sexism.

Bringing to the escapist forums because, It's an issue that will interest many.

This is worse than his half-ass defense of racism.

"I'm sick of these closed-minded generalisations from the people I just generalised Let's generalise more people!"

And then let's bring "malice" into things....

Because screw honesty, am I right, guys?

EDIT: *sigh*, let me back up for a second. This once again appears to be a video by someone who thinks a mention of "sexism" immediately means that we think there's some big bad conspiracy to oppress women, or that sexism immediately indicates hate or something similar. However, given his racism/xenophobia video came down to "it's just their culture," which isn't a defense of racism, I still find it incredibly freaking stupid. Especially in the light of the above generalisiations.

None of his defenses seem to actually address a sexist society or sexism in media. Yes, I'm including the "positive role model" one that resembles some of the excuses for minstrel shows back in the day, and that's exactly why I'm including it. Like his previous video, this isn't so much "why Japan isn't X" but "why Japan is, but I won't call it that."

Dude loves Japan. I understand that. But he often comes off as an apologist in the same way that a lot of gamers have misconstrued criticism of their favourite games as attacks or accusations beyond the boundary of the criticism.

I did claim before that i do understand English good but i don't understand what you are saying.
Maybe if i watch a couple of his episodes i may understand where he come from.

Although i agree with what he says.

 

[Something Amyss]

I didn't know Gaijin Goombah was so hotly debated. I literally was not expecting people to be this upset by this video.
Goodness. Can someone explain to me? Is he like, satan or something. I'm so confused now.

The edit explains most of it.

He's not satan, though. He's just someone so in love with a particular culture that he defends it, reasonably or otherwise.

To be honest, it's not him in general that I find so debatable, but a couple of isolated videos. And mostly for the reasons I mentioned right in that post.

 

[Something Amyss]

I did claim before that i do understand English good but i don't understand what you are saying.
Maybe if i watch a couple of his episodes i may understand where he come from.

Although i agree with what he says.

How can you agree with someone if you don't understand them?

 

[grassgremlin]

That's an interesting place, but what about the camp who generalizes the entirety of japan as sexist.

Entirety, or the culture overall? Because I can't speak to each Japanese person, but Japan does have cultural issues with sexism. Both the issues they have with groping on subways and their attempts to address it are indicative. Are we perfect? No.

Heck, even the camp who seems upset that social justice in america wants every country to bend to there will?

Wonder how they'd feel if Japan made it legal to screw children again, if they're so much against western "social justice."

I mean, I'm not trying to conflate your position or the one you are talking about to support of pedophilia, but I think people quickly forget that this was a thing. But at the same time, if the laws reverted to pre-western influence, would you be okay with them screwing kids? Would the idea of "social justice" trying to "bend" countries still apply or be a bad thing?

You know, this (women in media) isn't pedophilia or genital mutilation, but I am always curious as to how far the moral relativism goes.

Of course not. Honestly, those are some really loaded questions you're asking me.
I can't defend it. Honestly, morally, I'd say, social justice should spread out to there country for the sake of bettering us as a species.

However . . . ugh, there's no however without me apologizing for pedophilia, sorry. Just wow, though.

 

[Darkmantle]

I agree with him, and frankly I find people such as he is describing to, far too often I'd say, only view things from their particular cultural lens. And as they often come from the states, just a wave of puritanical shaming nonsense.

 

[Ryan Hughes]

OK I think he is somewhat off-base here, not because of his views on Japan, but because of the contrast he wrongly makes with the west, specifically the religious contrast.

Japan is a complex culture that I claim little knowledge of, however their view of women's suffrage and feminism is based far more in the practical rights of women and far less in media or image depictions of women. So, Japanese feminism is far more concerned with voting, birth control, the right to own property, etc than depictions of women in media. There could be many reasons for this, but religion simply isn't one of them.

Actually, the largest cause of western attitudes toward sexuality come from the pre-Christian Roman period, where women were considered only the property of their husbands and fathers. The Torah and Bible actually mention pre-marital sex quite rarely. In reality pre-marital sex was greatly discouraged in the classical western world long before the rise of the Judaism and Christianity because it devalued the father's "property."

So, no I don't think he really makes any valid points here.

 

[sataricon]

I did claim before that i do understand English good but i don't understand what you are saying.
Maybe if i watch a couple of his episodes i may understand where he come from.

Although i agree with what he says.

How can you agree with someone if you don't understand them?

Not the maker of the video i mean you.

 

[Rahkshi500]

Wonder how they'd feel if Japan made it legal to screw children again, if they're so much against western "social justice."

I mean, I'm not trying to conflate your position or the one you are talking about to support of pedophilia, but I think people quickly forget that this was a thing. But at the same time, if the laws reverted to pre-western influence, would you be okay with them screwing kids? Would the idea of "social justice" trying to "bend" countries still apply or be a bad thing?

You know, this (women in media) isn't pedophilia or genital mutilation, but I am always curious as to how far the moral relativism goes.

No one knows for sure, but the thing is that we need to be careful to not cross the line between being able to secure the human rights of all people across the world, regardless of nation and culture, and imposing cultural imperialism onto others. I believe that's what Grassgrelim was trying to say.