Poll: Should Princess Zelda Still Need Saving?

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Fappy

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While this discussion does have the "damsel in distress" trope at its core, I am not here to debate the concept as it pertains to video games as medium. This is solely about the character Princess Zelda and the franchise named after her. That said, let's keep things civil. The first person to throw out the acronym "SJW" un-ironically will get three swift floggings on the rump, especially because this discussion is only tangentially related to female representation, etc.,etc.

Now that that's out of the way I pose this question to you all: why are we still rescuing Zelda from Ganon? Over the course of the franchise's long history Zelda has become more and more capable. She began as a powerless damsel in the franchise's early days and eventually graduated to a magic ninja, a pirate captain and so on. This was made possible because, like Link, she's just a reincarnation of the same soul, tied to the same destiny every era she is reborn into. What separates them greatly, however, is that Zelda is often times reborn with wildly different personalities, outlooks, skills and even professions. Conversely, Link is basically the same character every time (and we need not mention Ganon since he's actually the same guy presumably with intact memories of all his incarnations within a given timeline). So across the different titles Zelda has had the most variance in her character, so much so that in some instances we only really know she's Zelda because someone calls her that (Wind Waker is a good example of this).

Beyond their namesake, what trait do all these Zeldas share then? They all get captured before the story's over and Link always saves them. You'd think that being reincarnated with so much variance would allow her to evade such a fate every now and then, but sadly it does not. A character requiring salvation from another is not inherently a bad thing at all, however. In fact, it can be used to further develop said character. But you know, when you're captured over and over and over again, it kind of makes you wonder... how incompetent is this character? I personally don't think she's incompetent at all; rather, I think the writers of the series feel obligated to damsel her out of tradition more than anything else. This is incredibly dumb as it contradicts everything they've been trying to do with the character since Ocarina of Time: make her an empowered, competent badass.

OoT may actually be the worst offender of this as we're made to understand that Sheik (Zelda) is a super badass, but as soon as she reveals herself a magic, bullshit crystal of plot contrivance appears out of thin air and gobbles her up. You know, if Ganondorf is so powerful at this point why didn't he do the same to Link? Not only does Link not have any magic of his own to counter Ganon's efforts, but he was like five feet away from Zelda when this happened. Why not kill two birds with one stone?

Weirdly Hyrule Warriors (a non-canon Zelda spin-off) avoids this entirely! Not only is Zelda a capable, empowered badass, but she never once gets captured and the latter half of the game has her leading Hyrule's armies against Ganondorf with Link playing more of a supporting role by the end. In fact, you can play the final mission as any character and doing so as Zelda feels very... fitting. Now I am not saying that we need to play as Zelda or that she should take the spotlight away from Link (he is the series protagonist after all), but it would be nice to see the plot of future games compliment her character more often than it does.

I have to wonder: why is this even still a thing at this point? Most of the games she appears in since OoT seem to kind of shoehorn her capture in near the very end of the game; often times only marginally raising the stakes. In most of these games Link's already been questing to save Hyrule for 90% of the game and that won't change whether Zelda is captured or not. As I mentioned above, it just strikes me as sticking to tradition for tradition's sake and it's just comes off as... uninspired.

What do you guys think? Should Zelda be relegated to this role forever or do you think Nintendo could afford to do something more interesting with her? What kind of future do you see/want for the character?

Discuss!
 

McMarbles

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Honestly, I don't know WHY she can't be the hero. The frickin' series is named after her.
 

Elfgore

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Note: I've never played a Legend of Zelda game, no little to nothing of the lore, and am getting all of my info off the OP.

From what you're saying, whoever makes Zelda games is really missing out on some really easy possibilities to expand their games. Instead of having Link being the savior constantly and Zelda the damsel, make them a fighting duo. Saving the world together. You could expand both characters lore better and even make the game co-op or something.

I have no dog in this fight and I think whoever makes the game can do what they want. But the change would always be nice.
 

AlouetteSK

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Similar disclosure: Never played a canon LoZ game. Already been recommeneded a few games to start with. Will require time to actually get through them.

That out of the way, mixing up the story would be a nice change of pace. Have her as the main character, for one. Another is to have her captured in a non-bs method, and eventually bust out herself. I think a major problem about this is her actual relevance to the universe she's in. Because she is a princess, she gets shoved management duties of the kingdom, albiet ones I don't think the player sees. She could be a strong leader having to deal with politics of the nobility, or diffuse a potential uprising / invasion for all we know.
 

Fappy

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Elfgore said:
Note: I've never played a Legend of Zelda game, no little to nothing of the lore, and am getting all of my info off the OP.

From what you're saying, whoever makes Zelda games is really missing out on some really easy possibilities to expand their games. Instead of having Link being the savior constantly and Zelda the damsel, make them a fighting duo. Saving the world together. You could expand both characters lore better and even make the game co-op or something.

I have no dog in this fight and I think whoever makes the game can do what they want. But the change would always be nice.
A lot of people share that sentiment, actually. Thing is, Zelda does serve that role in many of the games but usually shifts from Link's support/ally to a damsel by the end. One thing it does do right in this case is that in many of them (OoT, WW and TP come to mind) she DOES actively support Link during the finale, sometimes even being the one to technically strike the final blow (she banished Ganondorf in OoT and fired the light arrow that Link deflected to Ganondorf in WW).
 

Fappy

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ExiledCreature said:
I call foul for asking the poll question the other way around compared to the thread title.
I didn't even notice I did that, sorry! That said, always read the poll question! XD
 

Casual Shinji

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Well, what else is she gonna do? Link's the Hero, Ganon's the Villain... These are generally the two main players in a story about Good vs. Evil. In order to give Zelda a role of equal importance in a story that is typically very simple she needs to embody somekind of reason why the two main forces are fighting. Anything else and she would get relegated to side character.

This is by no means an excuse for why she gets damsel'd up all the time, but at this point there's really very little Nintendo can do with her other than giving her (as well as the other characters) some depth, meaning a greater focus on story which I doubt many fans are in for, or just dropping her from the series entirely, which doesn't seem likely. Even having her sit out on just one game is unlikely to happen.

Edit. And at this point, even the 'Look, Zelda's a badass now' is becoming its own recurrence that the audience sees coming a mile away.
 

Roxas1359

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Honestly she didn't need saving in the first place for the most part. I will always say, that damned dress is cursed to make whoever wears it completely useless. I mean, in Ocarina of Time she is out in the field as Sheik and is quite competent, but the moment she reveals her disguise she's suddenly helpless. Then there is Wind Waker, and if anything pissed me off more it was that. For the good first half of the game Tetra was quite clearly a badass, but the moment that dress went on she was useless for most of the game. Maybe the dress is too difficult to move around in, and that's why she suddenly becomes useless.

I give Twilight Princess Zelda a pass because she clearly did try to fight off enemies she couldn't beat, and her army was basically entirely decimated. Although for that game Zelda was put more on the backseat for Midna, who I still love as a character because she actually develops throughout the story.
 

Fappy

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Casual Shinji said:
Well, what else is she gonna do? Link's the Hero, Ganon's the Villain... These are generally the two main players in a story about Good vs. Evil. In order to give Zelda a role of equal importance in a story that is typically very simple she needs to embody somekind of reason why the two main forces are fighting. Anything else and she would get relegated to side character.

This is by no means an excuse for why she gets damsel'd up all the time, but at this point there's really very little Nintendo can do with her other than giving her (as well as the other characters) some depth, meaning a greater focus on story which I doubt many fans are in for, or just dropping her from the series entirely, which doesn't seem likely. Even having her sit out on just one game is unlikely to happen.

Edit. And at this point, even the 'Look, Zelda's a badass now' is becoming its own recurrence that the audience sees coming a mile away.
They could always do something in the vein of Midna a la Twilight Princess and have her serve a consistent supporting role, actively helping Link along his journey. The story was just as much about Midna as it was Link, despite the fact that the player only controlled Link.

Also, I understand where you're coming from in terms of narrative complexity (and how it's supposed to be somewhat simple/archetypal), but it's really no excuse to damsel Zelda all the time. As I mentioned earlier, her capture in contemporary Zelda titles is not the call to action (closest we get in a contemporary title is Skyward Sword, but she's not actually captured at the beginning like Link assumes), but rather something that just apparently has to happen because it happens in other Zelda games. It literally serves no purpose as she is freed before the final encounter most the time anyway and helps Link defeat Ganon. Link would have also gone to confront Ganon in all these instances with or without Zelda's capture.
 

Mimic

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I say get rid of it just because of how overused and boring the trope is. Nintendo could make the characters and story more interesting and help refresh their games. It's far more obvious in Mario although I think Peach secretly has a thing for reptilian bad boys.
 

Casual Shinji

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Fappy said:
They could always do something in the vein of Midna a la Twilight Princess and have her serve a consistent supporting role, actively helping Link along his journey. The story was just as much about Midna as it was Link, despite the fact that the player only controlled Link.
The key behind Midna though was that she was a mysterious character with a questionable allegiance. Zelda is just too familiar to us. It'd be really, really difficult to put a spin on her character that doesn't seem obvious or have a very predictable outcome. Midna wasn't Zelda, she was a completely new character, and so she was able to surprise us. I don't think Zelda is capable of that anymore.

Also, Midna was so good she pretty much drained the entire rest of cast of Twilight Princess of any charm and personality. Well, except maybe for the bomb guy from Kakariko Village... That dude's awesome.

Also, I understand where you're coming from in terms of narrative complexity (and how it's supposed to be somewhat simple/archetypal), but it's really no excuse to damsel Zelda all the time. As I mentioned earlier, her capture in contemporary Zelda titles is not the call to action (closest we get in a contemporary title is Skyward Sword, but she's not actually captured at the beginning like Link assumes), but rather something that just apparently has to happen because it happens in other Zelda games. It literally serves no purpose as she is freed before the final encounter most the time anyway and helps Link defeat Ganon. Link would have also gone to confront Ganon in all these instances with or without Zelda's capture.
Zelda is just stuck in her role now, whether as damsel/princess or as 'badass (psst, she's actually Zelda)'. The only thing I see that could really change this up is if they made a Zelda game where you play as Zelda (no, not that one). And I don't mean just have her switch places with Link as the hero, but design it to play around with our expectations of how a Zelda game usually is -- Make Zelda be aware of the fact that Link is always the hero, but is now mysteriously absent with no one remembering he even existed at all. Sorta like The Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya, but in Hyrule. A Zelda action/adventure mystery you play as Zelda trying to uncover Link's disappearance from the annals of history... How awesome would that be?!
 

Fappy

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Casual Shinji said:
Fappy said:
They could always do something in the vein of Midna a la Twilight Princess and have her serve a consistent supporting role, actively helping Link along his journey. The story was just as much about Midna as it was Link, despite the fact that the player only controlled Link.
The key behind Midna though was that she was a mysterious character with a questionable allegiance. Zelda is just too familiar to us. It'd be really, really difficult to put a spin on her character that doesn't seem obvious or have a very predictable outcome. Midna wasn't Zelda, she was a completely new character, and so she was able to surprise us. I don't think Zelda is capable of that anymore.

Also, Midna was so good she pretty much drained the entire rest of cast of Twilight Princess of any charm and personality. Well, except maybe for the bomb guy from Kakariko Village... That dude's awesome.

Also, I understand where you're coming from in terms of narrative complexity (and how it's supposed to be somewhat simple/archetypal), but it's really no excuse to damsel Zelda all the time. As I mentioned earlier, her capture in contemporary Zelda titles is not the call to action (closest we get in a contemporary title is Skyward Sword, but she's not actually captured at the beginning like Link assumes), but rather something that just apparently has to happen because it happens in other Zelda games. It literally serves no purpose as she is freed before the final encounter most the time anyway and helps Link defeat Ganon. Link would have also gone to confront Ganon in all these instances with or without Zelda's capture.
Zelda is just stuck in her role now, whether as damsel/princess or as 'badass (psst, she's actually Zelda)'. The only thing I see that could really change this up is if they made a Zelda game where you play as Zelda (no, not that one). And I don't mean just have her switch places with Link as the hero, but design it to play around with our expectations of how a Zelda game usually is -- Make Zelda be aware of the fact that Link is always the hero, but is now mysteriously absent with no one remembering he even existed at all. Sorta like The Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya, but in Hyrule. A Zelda action/adventure mystery you play as Zelda trying to uncover Link's disappearance from the annals of history... How awesome would that be?!
I'd play the shit out of that. It is quite odd that they haven't already tried something like that, honestly. I know Nintendo is averse to messing with their formulas, but the demand is clearly there.
 

Fappy

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BigTuk said:
The problem is you're thinking of the princess as a person.. and not as what she is.. a lieterary object. if she's not being damselled... well, I have no problem with her being a player character... but if she's not being damselled or a player character then.. er... what reason does she have to exist in the story?
I think you're over simplifying what characters mean to a story. They don't have to be there just to fulfill a role. I pointed out in the OP that she plays a prominent role in Hyrule Warrior's story without being damselled.

Complaining about the whole damsel thing is like complaining about jason voorhees always being 'the killer'.
Except that the entire point of Friday the 13th is that Jason is the killer. That's why people watch the movies in the first place. Zelda being damselled is not a vital cog in LoZ's wheel. It's been proven across several games that she is more than just a helpless princess/plot device, so it's silly that she keeps getting relegated to that role for no good reason.
 

DrOswald

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I want to play a turn based strategy Zelda game in which you are Zelda commanding the armies of Hyrule against the forces of Ganon. It fits well with her character theme as wisdom is a strong leadership trait. Zelda has, herself, been a capable fighter many times, but she is rarely on par with the more direct power granted by the triforce of power and courage. It would make far more sense for her to lead an army in a genre switching spinoff than replace Link in an action/adventure game. And it could make a really good spin off franchise.
 

happyninja42

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I wouldn't mind some variation, simply to make the games different. I haven't played a Zelda game since I think...uh...hmm...*thinks back* Probably whatever one was on the N64 I guess. So I don't really follow the franchise at all.

But when the games are the same, with no real variation other than where you are saving Zelda, and what she might look like, it does make the product feel like it's just a Madden game repainting of the same game over and over.

I personally don't have much issue with having a character being a rescue device, male or female, if it's done well. The problem with the D.I.D. trope is that it's almost never done well. The character's are just place holders for concepts, without any actual fleshing out of who they are. And for me, that is fairly dull and won't hold my interest.

If the story being told in the game can be best served by having her needing rescue, then I'm fine with it. If she's filling that role simply because "Well it's what she's always done", then I'm less in favor of her being rescued.

I think they could easily fix this by having some other type of threat that needs both Link and Zelda working together to deal with. Other games have done the "split perspective" in the past, and done it fairly well. No reason LoZ couldn't do the same thing.
 

fenrizz

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Playing a Zelda game and not rescue Zelda?
What would be the point of that?

Casual Shinji said:
Well, what else is she gonna do? Link's the Hero, Ganon's the Villain... These are generally the two main players in a story about Good vs. Evil. In order to give Zelda a role of equal importance in a story that is typically very simple she needs to embody somekind of reason why the two main forces are fighting. Anything else and she would get relegated to side character.

This is by no means an excuse for why she gets damsel'd up all the time, but at this point there's really very little Nintendo can do with her other than giving her (as well as the other characters) some depth, meaning a greater focus on story which I doubt many fans are in for, or just dropping her from the series entirely, which doesn't seem likely. Even having her sit out on just one game is unlikely to happen.

Edit. And at this point, even the 'Look, Zelda's a badass now' is becoming its own recurrence that the audience sees coming a mile away.
I agree with this.

I really don't see the issue here, Grandfather Clause [ tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GrandfatherClause] and all.