Poll: So, why do you do it!?

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kronoset

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Jan 1, 2009
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Hey, what's up. I just going to go on short rant about something that has plagued my intellectual inquiry throughout secondary-school education and is now resurfacing in college. Throughout high-school (in a private school for the last two years of it) I noticed that kids just didn't seem to give a flying f**k about education. I regularly got in arguments about the true nature and purpose of education. Sure, I lamented over math exams, just like the next guy, but I still valued the classes as a whole. Regularly I'd hear students making those trademark claims such as "why the hell do I need to take Social Studies--I'm gonna be an engineer" or "English class is bull***t". Okay, so it begins. Why, for f**k's sake, would you waste an hour or two of your life EVERY SINGLE DAY on something you think is absolutely worthless. The common response to that is, "to get into a good college". So, I inquire further, hoping to understand why somebody who loathes intellectual discourse so much, or sees no inherent purpose in the academic model, would elect to go to to an "institution of higher learning". They then respond, "to get a good job". So, I delve further and inquire as to what job could possibly be worth bull****ing away(assuming you take two humanities or social science courses each year in your 4 years of high-school) roughly 1,440 hours. Now, drawing from the assumption that the type of student in question also attends college merely to get a good job and takes the minimum dispersion requirements (in a liberal arts college), double that rough estimate. That comes out to 2,880 hours. Now, let's say you double that yet again, assuming you would spend roughly as much time on the homework as on classwork. So, there ya have it. 5,760 hours (I acknowledge by a very rough/generalizing estimate) spent on something you don't give two s***ts about in 8 years.

Now, I want to stress that I am NOT suggesting that students should drop all intellectual activities that they have little to no interest in. I am actually suggesting quite the opposite. To engage in discourse over a variety of subjects, one must be well-rounded. Just because the engineer or doctor is well-versed enough in math and science to secure a comfortable salary and exist in society does not mean that they are able to function well in society. The same thing applied to the intellectual or theologian who holds no interest in the sciences. A efficient society is one in which each individual member is able to engage in a high level of discourse over a vast variety of subjects, and if one finds something which they are ignorant to, they attempt to become familiar with it. That is the way public discourse should work. The person who solely identifies him or herself as the engineer, the doctor, the theologian, the scholar, the athlete, the artist, or the writer cannot see things outside of his or her own perspective. That person shuts themselves into their own realm of specialized knowledge. However, the engineer who is versed in philosophy, or the writer to familiarizes himself with physic is better able to transcend this realm of independence. Why should you put your best foot forward with any intellectual topic? Why, because you are not the only person in this society. You must be able to both impart and receive ideas. We (here in the U.S.) live in a democratic-republic that is supposed to stress political discourse. Is that what you see on Fox? On MSNBC? Even on CNN? On Fox and MSNBC, I tend to see pundits addressing an audience that only wants to see and hear those ideas which reaffirm its preexisting beliefs. On CNN, I just see a plethora of ideological extremes housed in the same room for the pure spectacle of the ensuing conflict, with no coherence or receptiveness. In these cases, there is plenty of speaking, but no listening. Discourse is shaped by the society it is housed in. It is characterized by mutability. What is deemed wrong a year ago, could be right today, because that's what discourse does, it challenges the preconceived notions of you and your peers.

Sorry for a long-winded rant. I was going to go more in-depth, but then I realized I have an exam to study for tomorrow. I attached a little poll just get an idea of where the community here stands. I apologize in advance for any spelling or grammatical errors, since I haven't actually looked back upon what I just wrote.


*I also want to note that I'm an avid skeptic of any sort of standardized testing, and merit based one's ability to simply be a good studier or have a good memory. Those are useful skills, but good studying or remembering is not necessarily good "thinking".
 

reg42

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Mar 18, 2009
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Well I think one should really try to know as much as possible, because... I can't really explain. I just think it's important.
 

JupiterBase

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Feb 4, 2010
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always learn and continue to learn expand your mind, shur you could be ignorant and blissful but...wait...wtf am i saying! Fuck it already too late, so may as well continue reading and research stuff.
 

kronoset

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Jan 1, 2009
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reg42 said:
Well I think one should really try to know as much as possible, because... I can't really explain. I just think it's important.
Yeah, I don't necessarily think there needs to be a specific reason for expanding one's intellectual dimensions, but all those people in school who didn't have a reason, and therefor didn't try could possibly use a reason. Basically, those who aren't inclined from either apathy or involvement in something else. (eg. family wants their kid to become a doctor, so their kid focuses so much on that goal--that may not be their own--that they lose sight of all the opportunities in their peripherals)
 

Deofuta

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Nov 10, 2009
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tl:dr

Haha just kidding.

I may not enjoy my class for a variety of reasons. The proffessors may put me off, the workload may be enormous, or I simply do not find the subject matter very interesting. For instance, I love East Asian Culture, but the proffessor is quite frustrating, and thus I dread our recitation meetings. I love the lecutre, which is not something I would think possible back in my HS years.
 

oldmanwynter

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Mar 1, 2010
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wait wait wait wait wait...

You actually watch television? There are plenty of other ways to waste time productively (yes, that was a paradox).

OT: I think that one should attempt to focus on a specific field of study while not narrowly specializing in it. How does the saying go... "jack of all trades, master of none is sometimes better than a master of one." Personally, I think one should attempt to be a jack of all trades and at least an expert of one.
 

Jedoro

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Jun 28, 2009
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While students shouldn't be forced to be jacks-of-all-trades, we should all know a little bit about everything and still specialize in our chosen profession, so I voted for that bottom one.
 

Dublin Solo

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Feb 18, 2010
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I believe general knowledge is important. It's what can make people have real opinions about a given topic. However, having general knowledge requires more work, and since instant gratification is pretty much the norm these days, mayhem ensues. It's sad to see so many people relying others to know what to think, but there's nothing we can do.

I wonder when this instant gratification madness even began? Some people blame parents overcompensating their absence with gifts (material of others)... Egocentrism? I guess this could be a very interesting topic to have a philosophical debate on.

I could elaborate, but since English isn't my main language, I will onyl end up constructing weird sentences!
 

kronoset

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Jan 1, 2009
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Magic Hobo said:
I figure we should only have to learn what we need, but a lot of it, and faster.
But doesn't "what we need" change over time? What's necessary during a certain time, under certain circumstances may not be so necessary late, whereas something neglected could be useful later on. A doctor I recently met on a bus home, was extremely well-educated in politics. He regarded this information as being invaluable in the discussion of today's health-care debates. Likewise, a politician would not have had to be so well-versed in health-care under a different political climate, where it was such a visible issue.
 

kronoset

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Jan 1, 2009
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Deofuta said:
tl:dr

Haha just kidding.

I may not enjoy my class for a variety of reasons. The proffessors may put me off, the workload may be enormous, or I simply do not find the subject matter very interesting. For instance, I love East Asian Culture, but the proffessor is quite frustrating, and thus I dread our recitation meetings. I love the lecutre, which is not something I would think possible back in my HS years.
I definitely understand that ;)

I've had teachers who just seemed to hate having to come in every day. I have to agree that the manner in which a subject is presented affects its reception. Though, in that case, I would argue that the issue lies more with the professor and less with the students. I guess that in my generalization I would have to exclude the manner in which the content is presented--although that's probably just as important as the content itself.
 

Angry Caterpillar

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Feb 26, 2010
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kronoset said:
Magic Hobo said:
I figure we should only have to learn what we need, but a lot of it, and faster.
But doesn't "what we need" change over time? What's necessary during a certain time, under certain circumstances may not be so necessary late, whereas something neglected could be useful later on. A doctor I recently met on a bus home, was extremely well-educated in politics. He regarded this information as being invaluable in the discussion of today's health-care debates. Likewise, a politician would not have had to be so well-versed in health-care under a different political climate, where it was such a visible issue.
You act like after you leave school, you're suddenly cut off from information. You aren't. If you want to learn something new, then go learn it; find a book, a site, break down and try to get into a class.

I just think that we should learn what we have to for our jobs and general day-to-day life instead of the (un)assorted crapfest that is the mess of things now. I do not need to know what cells, DNA, and the like are made of. Sure, it's interesting, but I think my time can be better spent.
 

Cowabungaa

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Feb 10, 2008
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I too am almost frustrated by the complete disinterest people express about the world around them. I like learning, knowing stuff, delving in different subjects to develop in a broad way and I honestly do not understand why so many people can't give 2 shits about the huge universe around them.

Just being a bit informed about the world around you should be enough reason, from my perspective. But it opens up new ways of thinking, new ways of tackling problems, give you a new perspective.

A more practical example might be the manager who has also picked up a thing or 2 about philosophy and sociology might be more efficient. I basically see no reason not to, and I'll probably never understand why people keep being so apathetic.

School however, I can see why they're apathetic about. I was too for a large part. I might've found the subject interesting, but if the text books we were forced to learn from (note: doesn't mean I often didn't look up things myself) sucked and the teachers were incredibly dull, it's no wonder your spirits get down a bit.
 

Nickolai77

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Apr 3, 2009
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Interesting point OP, i think what you are saying is that we should aim to be the ideal "Rennaisance man" i suppose- well versed in a broad range of subjects.

Well, thats something i aim for, although naturally i am drawn closer to areas that i find most interesting. The thing is though, not everyone is a natural interlectual, not everyone enjoys reading and debating history, politics, physics etc- and i think thats just down to who you are. There is nothing "wrong" with someone not being interlectualy interested, it does not appeal to everyone, just like how not everyone is interested in sport or video gaming.

As for the education, well i can only really talk about the UK education system, because i am led to believe that the American one is considerably different. Baisically at university level in the UK you will have a degree of interest in the subject, you will have needed to be intersted enough in it to be motivated enough to get a A or B grade in it at A Level to get to university in the first place.
 

kronoset

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Jan 1, 2009
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Jedoro said:
While students shouldn't be forced to be jacks-of-all-trades, we should all know a little bit about everything and still specialize in our chosen profession, so I voted for that bottom one.
moderation is good--can't argue with that. I'd say that I am much better artist and writer than mathematician, but I still have that basic knowledge of the sciences and math that allows be to converse intelligibly about it.
 

Nimbus

Token Irish Guy
Oct 22, 2008
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For you to see where my viewpoint comes from, let me tell you about my education system:

As part of my education I am forced to take 7-9 examined subjects (Not counting extra subjects, such as religion, which no one cares about anyway). Maths, English, Irish, one European language and 3 or 4 out of just about anything else you could imagine. I will be assigned points on what grade I receive in the final exam for each subject, and I will add up the points for the best 6 results and that will determine what courses I will be able to do at 3rd level (Uni/College).

This, is utter bullshit. Setting aside the mandatory subjects that will be completely useless for the vast majority of people (English is basically poetry, plays, movies, novels, etc. Why would most people benefit from knowing this stuff? And don't get me fucking started on Irish...) my knowledge of a vast range of topics will decide whether I can get into a specific course. For example, it could be my knowledge of Poetry, Shakespeare, German, Biology, Irish and Agriculture that determines whether or not I could get into a computer science degree course.

On topic, I think that, by the time you are looking towards College/Uni (15-16), you should be specializing. There's no reason a guy going for a Science course should be examined on languages and poetry etc. Now, having to study them is one thing, but them being factored into Uni entrance is quite another.

Cowabungaa said:
A more practical example might be the manager who has also picked up a thing or 2 about philosophy and sociology might be more efficient. I basically see no reason not to, and I'll probably never understand why people keep being so apathetic.
Not everyone can be interested by everything. Surely you know of one or two topics which bore you to tears and that you would hate to have to be forced to learn about?
 

Gildan Bladeborn

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Aug 11, 2009
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People should have a willingness to learn, certainly, but the way 'liberal arts requirements' go about trying to instill that willingness doesn't tend to work very well - there are a lot of subjects that are simply completely pointless to know anything about unless you are specifically focusing on that subject as a career path.

Pointless knowledge isn't bad knowledge of course, but forcing students to take pointless courses only makes them resent having to learn it.
 

Nimbus

Token Irish Guy
Oct 22, 2008
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Gildan Bladeborn said:
People should have a willingness to learn, certainly, but the way 'liberal arts requirements' go about trying to instill that willingness doesn't tend to work very well - there are a lot of subjects that are simply completely pointless to know anything about unless you are specifically focusing on that subject as a career path.

Pointless knowledge isn't bad knowledge of course, but forcing students to take pointless courses only makes them resent having to learn it.
Exactly my point! Especially when their time could be better spent learning about things that are of interest to them, or would be useful to them.
 

kronoset

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Jan 1, 2009
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Magic Hobo said:
kronoset said:
Magic Hobo said:
I figure we should only have to learn what we need, but a lot of it, and faster.
But doesn't "what we need" change over time? What's necessary during a certain time, under certain circumstances may not be so necessary late, whereas something neglected could be useful later on. A doctor I recently met on a bus home, was extremely well-educated in politics. He regarded this information as being invaluable in the discussion of today's health-care debates. Likewise, a politician would not have had to be so well-versed in health-care under a different political climate, where it was such a visible issue.
You act like after you leave school, you're suddenly cut off from information. You aren't. If you want to learn something new, then go learn it; find a book, a site, break down and try to get into a class.

I just think that we should learn what we have to for our jobs and general day-to-day life instead of the (un)assorted crapfest that is the mess of things now. I do not need to know what cells, DNA, and the like are made of. Sure, it's interesting, but I think my time can be better spent.

I agree with you that you shouldn't have to go too deeply into a subject you have little interest in, since then you could end up detracting form the conversation about it, but I'd argue that many subjects have overlapping factors which connects do you statement about making an independent effort to learn things through books/reference. I'm not arguing against having a focus on skills that pertain to your chosen profession, but I am arguing against limiting yourself to ONLY that knowledge. It goes without saying that you will naturally focus on your interest, but I think that the focus should come after you been exposed to the basics of other academic interests. If a single-track education is put in place too early, then it could harm one's ability to reason from different perspectives later on. This is a generalization, and there are exceptions, but there's a fine line in childhood between specialization and indoctrination.
 

kronoset

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Jan 1, 2009
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Gildan Bladeborn said:
People should have a willingness to learn, certainly, but the way 'liberal arts requirements' go about trying to instill that willingness doesn't tend to work very well - there are a lot of subjects that are simply completely pointless to know anything about unless you are specifically focusing on that subject as a career path.

Pointless knowledge isn't bad knowledge of course, but forcing students to take pointless courses only makes them resent having to learn it.
yeah, I agree that nothing good really comes from forcing an interest on people. I hated having to take math beyond algebra and geometry, and I admit that it definitely damaged my interest in the subject. So I'd suggest that HS be designed more like a liberal-arts college, in which you would need one of the basic course-types, but then you could set a specific area of focus (eg. concentrate the remainder of your courses int the social sciences) or have a system (like my HS) where you can get your requirements out of the way in you first year or two, then focus on your interests the remaining three or two.