Poll: Star Trek (Voyager mostly)

[Sixcess]

So I've been on a bit of a Star Trek kick recently. I don't work my way through entire seasons, but pick episodes according to whether I'm in the mood for Kirk punching aliens, Picard lecturing aliens or Sisko murdering aliens (alright, he only did it once, sort of, but still...)

Only this time I've also watched some episodes of Voyager, a series I watched about twice during its original run before fleeing it forever.

It had a great set up - placing the action far away from the established background and giving the writers a clean slate to work on as well as removing the safety net of the Federation's to all intents and purposes near limitless resources - and yet they did very little with it. But that's not what struck me.

What struck me was that it would have been a better show if Jeri Ryan had been cast as the captain from the word go.

*Awaits denunciations of sexism*

They made a big deal of having a woman captain, but I think Mulgrew was a terrible choice and even more terribly written. She comes across as a harridan, a near permanently scowling insecure tyrant (seriously, "That's an order" is virtually her catchphrase, even at the most inapropriate or ridiculous moments) and beats even Picard for self righteous stiffness. In any other Trek show she'd have been the sort of high ranking Starfleet officer who acts as an obstacle to our heroes - not actually evil, but bad-tempered, bureaucratic, officious and callous. And this is our hero?

But why Ryan? Well, why not? She wasn't too young to have command since the set up of the first episode could have killed off the commanding officer, and besides Kirk 2009 looks barely old enough to have started shaving and they gave him the captain's chair. I'd argue that she has more charisma than Mulgrew, and given how many episodes revolved around her after she was introduced the writers seemed to think so to. And yeah, though I'm not too fond of the catsuits (bit too obvious what they're aiming at there) she fills out a Starfleet uniform nicely.

Nothing wrong with that. Kirk, Picard, Sisko all have their fangirls, so again... why not? If not Ryan then someone like her anyway.

I'm not saying that would have solved all the problems Voyager had, but it might have helped, and with a younger captain then Chakotay could have picked up the slack as the older, wiser, more worldly figure of the show. God knows Robert Beltran could have done with having something to do other than being the token indian, and Janeway's ***** yes man.

Thoughts?

capcha: panic button
Don't panic, capcha.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

A couple of problems with that. One, Jeri Ryan wasn't even on the show from the word go; they picked up Seven of Nine in a two part episode during a period when the ratings were dropping. The other problem is it really was the writing more than the acting that screwed up Janeway. It was /really/ inconsistent. In one episode, she'd flagrantly disregard the prime directive because it was convenient, and then in the next she'd stick to it and claim never to have broken it, apparently because she's a masochist as well as a liar.

Besides, Seven would make a /terrible/ captain. She's an extra Data/Spock analogue, since apparently the doctor wasn't enough on his own. But unlike Data and Spock, she's not comfortable enough in any society aside from the Borg to be a qualified captain. Be'lonna would be a better choice, and in that crew, she'd probably be third after Chakotay and Tuvok.

 

[Vuliev]

It's kind of a tie between Sisko and Picard for me. It's honestly been too long since I've watched either to make any kind of strong choice either way.

Also, while I don't doubt the Jeri Ryan would have been great as Voyager's captain, I never really got the feeling that Janeway was a harridan or overly bureaucratic or any of the other things you said. Sure she can be stiff, but the Federation is a paramilitary organization after all, and due to Voyager's situation, military discipline might needs be more strict there than on, say, the Enterprise-D. Honestly, Janeway struck me as something of a "mama-bear"--tough on her own crew, but willing to die for them if need be (and as demonstrated more than a number of times.)

Besides, Seven would make a /terrible/ captain. She's an extra Data/Spock analogue, since apparently the doctor wasn't enough on his own. But unlike Data and Spock, she's not comfortable enough in any society aside from the Borg to be a qualified captain. Be'lonna would be a better choice, and in that crew, she'd probably be third after Chakotay and Tuvok.

I'm pretty sure he's just referring to Jeri Ryan as an actress and not implying that Seven should have been the captain.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Besides the grating attitude and horribly bland performance (from pretty much everyone on that show), I think the worst part of Mulgrew's Cpt. Janeway was this inexorable quirk involving her and her positioning relative to the camera.

In most episodes, she acts like she has no neck. I'm dead serious.

Janeway rarely turns her head to talk to someone; usually, she turns her ENTIRE BODY. No other crew member exhibited this peculiar behavior.

Every episode I watched, this would bug the shit out of me. If Janeway was in a chair, she would rotate her entire body. (this becomes particularly hilarious when she's talking to more than one person in her office, because she will keep turning the damn chair)

There are tracking conversation shots (in hallways) where she forces the conversation to a halt, solely so she can turn her entire body 90 degrees to face who she is talking to, give her lines, and then resume talking.

As far as I know, Mulgrew didn't have any serious neck injury going onto the show.

Just something odd.

 

[ShadowsofHope]

They made a big deal of having a woman captain, but I think Mulgrew was a terrible choice and even more terribly written. She comes across as a harridan, a near permanently scowling insecure tyrant (seriously, "That's an order" is virtually her catchphrase, even at the most inapropriate or ridiculous moments) and beats even Picard for self righteous stiffness. In any other Trek show she'd have been the sort of high ranking Starfleet officer who acts as an obstacle to our heroes - not actually evil, but bad-tempered, bureaucratic, officious and callous. And this is our hero?

When you and your crew are lost out in a quadrant of space that is over 70,000 lightyears away from any home you know of.. you tend to have be quite a hardass in order to keep everyone mentally and physically working towards that end goal (took them 7 years with help, would have taken over 10+ years without future Janeway). Picard and the other Captains are in the Alpha quadrant most of the time (the home of the Federation and every other galactic power), so they can be more relaxed with their crew and daily situations. Heck, if Picard had been the one in command of Voyager, he probably would have acted somewhat the same. And that is coming from a Picard fanboy.

And Janeway was hardly "advertised" as being a female captain, considering Star Trek did not really need to get cuddly with feminist organizations as much as other shows/entertainment when they already had dozens of strong, capable (and emotionally stable) female captains/admirals/officers already present throughout the individual series.

But why Ryan? Well, why not? She wasn't too young to have command since the set up of the first episode could have killed off the commanding officer, and besides Kirk 2009 looks barely old enough to have started shaving and they gave him the captain's chair. I'd argue that she has more charisma than Mulgrew, and given how many episodes revolved around her after she was introduced the writers seemed to think so to. And yeah, though I'm not too fond of the catsuits (bit too obvious what they're aiming at there) she fills out a Starfleet uniform nicely.

Nothing wrong with that. Kirk, Picard, Sisko all have their fangirls, so again... why not? If not Ryan then someone like her anyway.

The reason why so many shows revolved around Seven of Nine was because she was the "Data" of Voyager. She was seeking to understand the humanity of those around her after being part of the Borg since she was a little girl, attempting to develop her as more than just the "outsider with personality issues" and give her a more comfortable place amongst the rest of the crew.

The reason for the "catsuit" was, in my opinion, helping her to cope without her borg exoskeleton suit after so many years by giving her a suit that fit somewhat the same way it did. You know, help make the transition from everything that was borg back into the way it was when she was human easier. Though I will admit, there was some obvious sex appeal there, but I don't think it was the primary purpose.

I'm not saying that would have solved all the problems Voyager had, but it might have helped, and with a younger captain then Chakotay could have picked up the slack as the older, wiser, more worldly figure of the show. God knows Robert Beltran could have done with having something to do other than being the token indian, and Janeway's ***** yes man.

That relationship was more symbolic than anything else. It was to symbolize starfleet and the struggles of their upholding of tolerance and aims of peace with all forms of life in the galaxy, even in the most stressful and uneasy of situations. The Maquis are a terrorist organization founded by the Bajorans after the Cardassian occupation that regularly attacks Cardassians military and (occasionally) civilian targets in revenge for the occupation of Bajor that was meant to be somewhat metaphorical to the Jewish concentration camps of WWII. Chakotay and B'elana were part of that organization before the Caretaker incident, and represent chaos and (in some degree) emphasis on individuality, whereas Starfleet obviously symbolizes order and an emphasis on collectivist principles.

 

[Johnny Impact]

Picard all the way. He is the personification of humanity's potential. It's funny to see him on a TV show because whenever he gives one of his iconic http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PatrickStewartSpeech I always want to get off the sofa and make something of my life.

Although I have been watching Deep Space 9 on Netflix. I have never seen DS9 beyond a couple episodes. I have been told it is the best Trek has to offer. I'm prepared to change my vote to Sisko pending the outcome of the series.

(Accidentally typed Depp Space 9 the first time. What a good idea, actually. "Hey, could somebody get 'Captain Jack' over here a proper uniform?")

 

[CAPTCHA]

Worst character in Voyager is definatly the Klingon bird. Sorry, did I say Klingon? I meant proud, zesty, latino fembot.

The elf and gnome people were crap as well. Nelix and friend.

 

[Chemical Alia]

The reason for the "catsuit" was, in my opinion, helping her to cope without her borg exoskeleton suit after so many years by giving her a suit that fit somewhat the same way it did. You know, help make the transition from everything that was borg back into the way it was when she was human easier. Though I will admit, there was some obvious sex appeal there, but I don't think it was the primary purpose.

Lol, I always figured it was because the Doctor was a pervert. The heels were the only thing that really bugged me about her outfits, just because I know how painful and impractical that kind of footwear are.

 

[porpoise hork]

Besides the grating attitude and horribly bland performance (from pretty much everyone on that show), I think the worst part of Mulgrew's Cpt. Janeway was this inexorable quirk involving her and her positioning relative to the camera.

In most episodes, she acts like she has no neck. I'm dead serious.

Janeway rarely turns her head to talk to someone; usually, she turns her ENTIRE BODY. No other crew member exhibited this peculiar behavior.

Every episode I watched, this would bug the shit out of me. If Janeway was in a chair, she would rotate her entire body. (this becomes particularly hilarious when she's talking to more than one person in her office, because she will keep turning the damn chair)

There are tracking conversation shots (in hallways) where she forces the conversation to a halt, solely so she can turn her entire body 90 degrees to face who she is talking to, give her lines, and then resume talking.

As far as I know, Mulgrew didn't have any serious neck injury going onto the show.

Just something odd.

I noticed this from her character as well. I think it was more of portraying the character as rigid in her stance of sticking to the federations rules in order to keep her crew in check. The result of that came across as a tenseness in her character that we saw. She loosens up in the second half of the series, becoming more relaxed to the situations she faces and dealing with the crew. She also is not as rigid in some episodes that lent her character to be more relaxed.

 

[Hoplon]

The Maquis are a terrorist organization founded by the Bajorans after the Cardassian occupation that regularly attacks Cardassians military and (occasionally) civilian targets in revenge for the occupation of Bajor that was meant to be somewhat metaphorical to the Jewish concentration camps of WWII.

Nope, The Maquis was a human colonist organisation that grew out of the colonies that where in disputed space on the Cardassian boarder, Where Cardassian military where using scare tactics to try to get them to leave the space they considered theirs and post Fed/Cardi war was theirs by treaty.

Totally separate from the Bajorian resistance.

 

[El Danny]

NO!

I accidently voted for Kirk, Picard is the far superior captain.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

I voted for The Sisko, first name "Don't Fuck With". As Sci Fi Debris put it, Picard's life was destroyed by the Borg, and he coped by drinking his tea and putting the assimilation behind him.

The Sisko, on the other hand, had his life destroyed by the Borg, and responded by building a warship specifically designed to kill Borg, essentially creating the first dedicated battleship the Federation had ever seen.

 

[DevilWithaHalo]

*Awaits denunciations of sexism*

(Clears throat)... a *female* captain? Well I never!

The problem with Janeway was the believability of her character; there was none. She was shoehorned in to appease a different demographic and failed miserably at it. They attempted to carbon copy every archetype they could and tweak them just slightly to make them "fresh and unique". It was utter hogwash.

When you consider other characters from previous shows, they were very direct in their application. Kirk was a cock sure head strong get'er'done type. Spock was the near human alien attempting to discern from a logical standpoint why we act the way we do. McCoy was the old timer just trying to get by having to deal with all these young wippersnappers. Etc.

While generations did recycle certain ideas, they at least did it in interesting ways. We replaced our slightly more hickville captain with an esteemed diplomat. Instead of trying to conquer the galaxy with preconceived notions of humanity (come on, we all know that's what Kirk really was doing), Picard choose to focus on how humanity could interact with alien cultures instead of dominating them (but we still have Ricker as the new Kirk to appease certain fans). Instead of an cold logical half alien, we now had a computer program attempting to emulate humanity as he saw it (which took the concept certainly further).

The problem with Voyager is we have near carbon copied (and badly at that) characters. A black vulcan? Was a color change really the only thing they could think of? Kirk and Picard is now a woman? (And yes, that was her character type, because I couldn't think of anything else) Instead of a Klingon, we now have a half human female Klingon? The show only became *slightly* more interesting when they actually introduced new characters. Let's be straight here, the most interesting character the show had was a hologram.

Not to mention the terrible regurgitation of past story lines because they couldn't come up with anything better. WTF was Q doing there? And the Borg? It wasn't enough to have the Borg, but you had to neuter one of the most dangerous alien races ever encountered to... what exactly? Diplomatic relations and guppy fodder? Even the last show ripped the time paradox dilemma from Next Gen in the worst possible way! The unlimited potential of a new section of space never explored and they couldn't come up with anything remotely interesting.

I have nothing but contempt for Voyager. Even the name! Voyager was our attempt to seek out new alien life in the far reaches of space, not complain about how we'll never see home again! At least SGU had the balls to keep going forward!

 

[Atmos Duality]

I noticed this from her character as well. I think it was more of portraying the character as rigid in her stance of sticking to the federations rules in order to keep her crew in check. The result of that came across as a tenseness in her character that we saw. She loosens up in the second half of the series, becoming more relaxed to the situations she faces and dealing with the crew. She also is not as rigid in some episodes that lent her character to be more relaxed.

A fair possibility.

Though the odd thing with that explanation is that Janeway frequently violates Federation regulation (I mean, who is going to stop her short of a mutiny)? She violates the Prime Directive MANY times in the course of the show, and she does so rather flippantly.

Of course, at the same time that Voyager was still airing, we had two Trek movies where Picard violates his orders (and acts completely out of character compared to the TV series); so maybe it was just a trend in writing at that time.

 

[Deathlyphil]

SISKO ISN'T A CAPTAIN HOW DARE YOU PROFANE THE CANON

Sorry, wrong. They promoted him to Captain during the show's run.

So many geek things to comment on. I'll start with this one. Sisko was promoted to captain later on in the series (series 5 or 6, i think), but he was referred to as captain whenever he was on the Defiant. The commanding officer of a ship is always referred to as Captain. (O'Brian makes that comment to Nog in an episode)

The Marquis were a collaboration between human settlers and Bajorans. The humans fought because part of the peace process between the Cardassians and the Federation handed over several colonies during boundary changes. The Bajorans fought because their planet was enslaved by the Cardassians for the last 50 years. They teamed up against a common enemy.

Fun aside: in DS9 the Federation never officially declares war on the Dominion...

Trivia: The Defiant was originally going to be called the Valiant, but they were told not to do it, because another ST show was about to start and they had a ship with a V-name. The Valiant appears in series 6 or 7 crewed by an elite group of ensigns.

 

[Ed130 The Vanguard]

I voted for The Sisko, first name "Don't Fuck With". As Sci Fi Debris put it, Picard's life was destroyed by the Borg, and he coped by drinking his tea and putting the assimilation behind him.

The Sisko, on the other hand, had his life destroyed by the Borg, and responded by building a warship specifically designed to kill Borg, essentially creating the first dedicated battleship the Federation had ever seen.

Let's not forget he punches Q in the face.

"You hit me! Picard never hit me!"
"I'm not Picard!"

 

[Sixcess]

NO!

I accidently voted for Kirk, Picard is the far superior captain.

You only think that. Deep down you know Kirk is the greatest and your subconscious guided your vote.

Kidding aside, we do seem to have a lot of Picard fans here. I never took to him until TNG was in reruns, though in hindsight that has less to do with Picard and more to do with Series 1 and much of Series 2 of TNG being really really bad - though S2 has some standout episodes like "Q Who" and "The Measure of a Man" (aka best Riker episode ever)

Picard all the way. He is the personification of humanity's potential. It's funny to see him on a TV show because whenever he gives one of his iconic http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PatrickStewartSpeech I always want to get off the sofa and make something of my life.

Yep, Picard put all his skill points into Speech and usually got critical successes. Janeway by contrast just barked at people. If she wanted to inspire someone she'd probably just growl "You're inspired now. That's an order."

As others have said, it's the writing that's mostly to blame, which is surprising given how good DS9 was. I do wonder if the flatness/stiffness of the Voyager crew was a result of them trying to steer back to the Star Trek ideal, which DS9 was sometimes accused of severely deviating from.

 

[Ardure]

Hate to say it but Ryan was brought in as 7 of 9 to bring some life to the show... Voyager was starting to sink and they brought in a new character and ditched kes to keep it alive. Personally I thought they brought up the Borg way too often in Voyager... yes they are interesting but they are only really interesting because they had some level of mystery about them. I found 7 of 9 became way too much of a crutch for the show... she became more central than Janeway in a lot of ways.

As for captain... Kirk is hands on, Picard is a general... but Sisko well Sisko is a bit of both... but the requirement to being a captain on Star Trek is a "lets talk things out" attitude but if that fails they can f--k you up.. lol

 

[El Danny]

NO!

I accidently voted for Kirk, Picard is the far superior captain.

You only think that. Deep down you know Kirk is the greatest and your subconscious guided your vote.

Kidding aside, we do seem to have a lot of Picard fans here. I never took to him until TNG was in reruns, though in hindsight that has less to do with Picard and more to do with Series 1 and much of Series 2 of TNG being really really bad - though S2 has some standout episodes like "Q Who" and "The Measure of a Man" (aka best Riker episode ever)

Picard has far more character than Kirk, Riker is basically Kirk with some character development and a bit more tact. Kirk is to Star Trek what Adam West is to Batman, a lot of fun, just hard to take as seriously as his successors.

Pocard also has a Shakespearean edge that's quite rare, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=632q94e2zm8 the way he spits those last words out. That cene is one of the very best in Star Trek, sadly I can't find the whole clip.