Poll: The oilsands CLIMATE CRIME RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE

[Lonan]

This is really long, but please read it. If you really can't devote enough time to read it all though, please jump to the last paragraph.

Here are the articles in question:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/edmonton/story/2009/09/15/edmonton-greenpeace-oilsands-protest.html
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/edmonton/story/2009/10/04/edmonton-greenpeace-fort-saskatchewan-shell-protest-arrests.html

Greenpeace is at it again. First they protested the seal hunt, and now there's so many of the useless water rats that fish are being driven to extinction. Now that they've done that to "protect" the environment, they've moved onto the big bad oilsands.

Now, before we continue, some background information. Apparently global warming has gotten so bad that even if emissions were halted right now, there would still be a level of risk. I believe 5 million people in India are already suffering under a drought; the severity of which has been unheard of until now. I heard that in Australia, there are already water shortages and wildfires are taking their toll because of how much carbon dioxide humans have released into the atmosphere.

At the rate things are going, with emissions growing by 2-3% every year, by the end of this century, the IPCC predicts a warming of 6.4 degrees celcius. If that happens, most life on earth will be extinguished. Methane hydrate will be released because of warming temperatures, causing massive tsunami's. In addition, the methane hydrate will be enough to destroy the ozone layer. As the weight of ice on Greenland and Antarctica disappears, earthquakes will happed all over the place, and tsunami's will be caused. The permafrost will melt, releasing as much greenhouse gases as is currently in the atmosphere. Hypercanes, hurricanes of unimaginable ferocity, will circumnavigate the globe destroying everything in their path. All rivers will run dry as the world becomes ice free for the first time in 16 million years. Humanity will be reduced to a few survivors struggling for their existence at the poles. Seem Crazy? Hitting the natural world with this much greenhouse gases is like shooting a man in the eye with a bullet and expecting him to "adapt." (Some people claim that the world's species will be able to adapt because fauna and flora have been able to adapt to change in the past. They will have as much time to adapt as a man would have to dodge a bullet.)

What is crazy is where the people who claim to be trying to prevent this from happening go to "help" the environment. The oilsands. Canada emits 2% of the world's greenhouse gas emissions. In other words, if every other country disappeared right now, emissions would be cut by an environmentally orgasmic 98%. This would reduce emissions to 2% of what they currently are. If Canada disappeared, emissions would be cut by 2%, reducing emissions to 98% of what they currently are. Think of focusing on Canada's emissions as zooming in on something with a 50 times magnification microscope.

Now let's zoom even further in, to the molecular level of greenhouse gas emissions, all the way to the oilsands. The oilsands, while growing in their emissions, contribute less than 10% of Canada's greenhouse gas emissions. Therefore, if everything except the oilsands disappeared, emissions would be reduced by 99.8%. That rounds up to 100%. If that happened, we would no longer have to worry about greenhouse gas emissions. Taken the other way, if the oilsands were shut down, as many call for, greenhouse gas emissions would be reduced by 0.2%. One could round that down to 0%, unless I am not entirely aware of the rules of math. And this would be considered by many to be a great environmental acheivement. Apocalypse is still on the menu, gentlemen. The microscope is zoomed in 500 times.

Many of the Greenpeace protestors are from other countries, so they are effectively tourists leaving their own heavily polluting countries to protest what Alberta and Canada have politely allowed to be the Symbol of the Apocalypse. That's the problem when you're polite, people pick fights with you, like the woman who beat on men's chest's with their fists in a rage until they burst into tears and suddenly need the man they were hitting to hold them and comfort them. All fine and part of sociology in times of peace, but this is not a time of peace. It's a time of great peril, and we will need all the testosterone and adrenalin in the world to avert total disaster.

The greenpeace people are trying to make people in Europe anti-oilsands in time for the conference in Copenhagen. So to people in Europe, are you anti-oilsands? Have you heard much about the oilsands? Have you people in the U.S. heard much about them on you're news outlets? Anyone outside of Canada, what is the sentiment around you to the oilsands?

Thanks for reading, and hopefully responding, and I'll leave you with a quote by Joseph Stalin:

"A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic."

 

[NeutralDrow]

...I read all of that, and I still don't know what you're saying.

 

[Lonan]

...I read all of that, and I still don't know what you're saying.

I'm saying that everyone is focusing on the microscopic amount of greenhouse gases coming from the oilsands has become the scapegoat of environmentalists, while the world is spinning towards biological collapse from all other sources of human greenhouse gas emissions. The oilsands have pretty much no impact on the atmosphere. The massive greenhouse gas emissions in the air from Europe and the U.S. and China are real threat, but people focus only on the oilsands. Does that make sense?

 

[Knight Templar]

Just because there are worse things than "X" doesn't mean we should let "X" continue.
In this case X is "oilsands" which is basicly a type of tar if I understand correctly, not exactly an easy thing to process.

 

[NeutralDrow]

...I read all of that, and I still don't know what you're saying.

I'm saying that everyone is focusing on the microscopic amount of greenhouse gases coming from the oilsands has become the scapegoat of environmentalists, while the world is spinning towards biological collapse from all other sources of human greenhouse gas emissions. The oilsands have pretty much no impact on the atmosphere. The massive greenhouse gas emissions in the air from Europe and the U.S. and China are real threat, but people focus only on the oilsands. Does that make sense?

That does make more sense, yes.

I guess my answer then would be...no. I don't fault the environmentalists for getting upset over something like this. This is actually an accomplishable goal, as opposed to, say, getting rid of every country except Canada. Or forcing the Kyoto Protocol down the U.S.'s throat. Or making India move towards non-fossil fuels (I'm pretty sure China is already making headway in that area). Regardless of whether or not this is small fry in the large scheme of things, I don't blame people for trying to fight battles they can win as opposed to giving up entirely and saying "eh, what comes, comes."

Besides, isn't this argument a fallacy of some kind? "Why would you be doing this, when you could be doing this instead?"

 

[chronobreak]

I'm saying that everyone is focusing on the microscopic amount of greenhouse gases coming from the oilsands has become the scapegoat of environmentalists, while the world is spinning towards biological collapse from all other sources of human greenhouse gas emissions. The oilsands have pretty much no impact on the atmosphere. The massive greenhouse gas emissions in the air from Europe and the U.S. and China are real threat, but people focus only on the oilsands. Does that make sense?

It's not that people ONLY focus on the oilsands, it's just the focus right now. All over the world tons of groups are pushing for lower and safer emissions and all that. Start small, you know? And hey, even if the impact is small, it's still something. You have to start somewhere.

 

[Lonan]

Have any of you BEEN to the oilsands? Do you LIVE in Alberta? I have and do, let me tell you, it isn't the emissions that are so bad, it is the ABSOLUTE destruction of the entire environment in that area. It is appalling how huge they are. Furthermore, the tailing ponds of unrecoverable water kill many birds, the most notable being a case in which an alleged 500 ducks died. Well, I knew someone who worked there, he asked me to consider that most ducks sank after coming in contact with the sludge. The 500 were the birds that beached. THOUSANDS of migrant ducks died, we potentially killed an ENTIRE population of ducks in Alberta.

Well, right now a quarter of all species in the world are endangered because of global warming. I'm not concerned about one species of bird when a QUARTER, 1/4 are in danger right now. There's probably millions of ENTIRE populations of birds which are being killed from greenhouse gases.

The oilsands brings huge amounts of money which are needed now to show the world how to get some god-damn renewable energy with REAL percentages of total power (if I hear 20% one more time I'm going to shoot someone) and have large amounts of capital to deal with the problems which will arise from a warming world. You tell me how to make the oilsands cleaner, while still getting money out. Tell me how much it would cost, and where the money is going to come from as the Alberta and federal governments are both in BILLIONS of dollars of debt. Also, is oil barely above profitability. Don't just say "We really need to clean that up." like everyone else. Everyone in the province (I do live in Alberta) and the whole COUNTRY could probably be quoted saying those exact words at some point, but it doesn't seem to have changed anything.

 

[Cody211282]

Were is the "I don't care about them option" or the "How do I makes something this cool were I live?" option?

 

[LuntiX]

Ah yes the Oilsands and Green Peace. I live in Fort McMurray, the town which practically runs the Oilsands. If Green Peace were to get the Oilsands to shut down, there would be an unimaginable amount of people including myself and my father. This town would probably wilt to nothing, and so forth. Truthfully, from my personal knowledge, the companies that have plants out at the Oilsands such as Syncrude and Suncor, are trying to reduce the emissions they produce. Green Peace should go back to hugging their trees.

[Edit]
It more falls onto the companies to reduce the emissions than the Government by the way. The companies are the ones that produce the emissions with their plants out at the Oilsand Sites.

 

[Lonan]

...I read all of that, and I still don't know what you're saying.

I'm saying that everyone is focusing on the microscopic amount of greenhouse gases coming from the oilsands has become the scapegoat of environmentalists, while the world is spinning towards biological collapse from all other sources of human greenhouse gas emissions. The oilsands have pretty much no impact on the atmosphere. The massive greenhouse gas emissions in the air from Europe and the U.S. and China are real threat, but people focus only on the oilsands. Does that make sense?

That does make more sense, yes.

I guess my answer then would be...no. I don't fault the environmentalists for getting upset over something like this. This is actually an accomplishable goal, as opposed to, say, getting rid of every country except Canada. Or forcing the Kyoto Protocol down the U.S.'s throat. Or making India move towards non-fossil fuels (I'm pretty sure China is already making headway in that area). Regardless of whether or not this is small fry in the large scheme of things, I don't blame people for trying to fight battles they can win as opposed to giving up entirely and saying "eh, what comes, comes."

Besides, isn't this argument a fallacy of some kind? "Why would you be doing this, when you could be doing this instead?"

I'm not saying anything like that. You talk about "forcing the Kyoto Protocol down the U.S.'s throat." People are now coming to Alberta and shoving their foolishness down our throats. Are you an American? That might explain why you're ok with the most powerful economic driver in Canada being shut down while you keep driving to work, using copious amounts of electricity, and resisting the Kyoto Protocol being "shoved down you're throat" so you can live keep living in gluttony while complaining about other countries. But then again you don't have you're country on your'e profile.

No offense to Americans who pull their own weight.

 

[Lonan]

Ah yes the Oilsands and Green Peace. I live in Fort McMurray, the town which practically runs the Oilsands. If Green Peace were to get the Oilsands to shut down, there would be an unimaginable amount of people including myself and my father. This town would probably wilt to nothing, and so forth. Truthfully, from my personal knowledge, the companies that have plants out at the Oilsands such as Syncrude and Suncor, are trying to reduce the emissions they produce. Green Peace should go back to hugging their trees.

Thank you, I take it you don't drink a Frappa-lappa-dappa-chino every morning and blame all the worlds woes on "the corporations?"

 

[Knight Templar]

Have any of you BEEN to the oilsands? Do you LIVE in Alberta? I have and do, let me tell you, it isn't the emissions that are so bad, it is the ABSOLUTE destruction of the entire environment in that area. It is appalling how huge they are. Furthermore, the tailing ponds of unrecoverable water kill many birds, the most notable being a case in which an alleged 500 ducks died. Well, I knew someone who worked there, he asked me to consider that most ducks sank after coming in contact with the sludge. The 500 were the birds that beached. THOUSANDS of migrant ducks died, we potentially killed an ENTIRE population of ducks in Alberta.

Well, right now a quarter of all species in the world are endangered because of global warming. I'm not concerned about one species of bird when a QUARTER, 1/4 are in danger right now. There's probably millions of ENTIRE populations of birds which are being killed from greenhouse gases.

So because bird's are in danger, you want to ignore the harm done to those you can save?

The oilsands brings huge amounts of money which are needed now to show the world how to get some god-damn renewable energy with REAL percentages of total power (if I hear 20% one more time I'm going to shoot someone) and have large amounts of capital to deal with the problems which will arise from a warming world

All those things can be done without mining tar for power, and natural gass ass a better cost-output ration anyway so all this is showing is how desperate and unwilling to change we really are.

EDIT: What is your stake in this? Why do you want this system in place so badly?

 

[Robert0288]

Do you know how many ducks Americans kill because they shit on peoples lawns and statues? A metric f#!ton. 500 Birds arn't going to do a thing.

Have any of you BEEN to the oilsands? Do you LIVE in Alberta? I have and do, let me tell you, it isn't the emissions that are so bad, it is the ABSOLUTE destruction of the entire environment in that area.

Have you looked at the enviromental restoration plans that go into effect after the oil is pulled from the sands? no? I didn't think so.

Kill the seals, save the Canadian fishing industry.

 

[LuntiX]

Ah yes the Oilsands and Green Peace. I live in Fort McMurray, the town which practically runs the Oilsands. If Green Peace were to get the Oilsands to shut down, there would be an unimaginable amount of people including myself and my father. This town would probably wilt to nothing, and so forth. Truthfully, from my personal knowledge, the companies that have plants out at the Oilsands such as Syncrude and Suncor, are trying to reduce the emissions they produce. Green Peace should go back to hugging their trees.

Thank you, I take it you don't drink a Frappa-lappa-dappa-chino every morning and blame all the worlds woes on "the corporations?"

Huh? I'm not blaming the world's woes on "The Corporations", it really is up to the companies to reduce the emissions. The government can only do so much. They can work in tandem with the companies to reduce said emissions, that's about it. Anyways, why would I bash "The Corporations" I work for? I was just telling the truth.

 

[randomsix]

We should just kill all the cows. It could also cut down on obesity with more tofuburgers being consumed.

 

[NeutralDrow]

...I read all of that, and I still don't know what you're saying.

I'm saying that everyone is focusing on the microscopic amount of greenhouse gases coming from the oilsands has become the scapegoat of environmentalists, while the world is spinning towards biological collapse from all other sources of human greenhouse gas emissions. The oilsands have pretty much no impact on the atmosphere. The massive greenhouse gas emissions in the air from Europe and the U.S. and China are real threat, but people focus only on the oilsands. Does that make sense?

That does make more sense, yes.

I guess my answer then would be...no. I don't fault the environmentalists for getting upset over something like this. This is actually an accomplishable goal, as opposed to, say, getting rid of every country except Canada. Or forcing the Kyoto Protocol down the U.S.'s throat. Or making India move towards non-fossil fuels (I'm pretty sure China is already making headway in that area). Regardless of whether or not this is small fry in the large scheme of things, I don't blame people for trying to fight battles they can win as opposed to giving up entirely and saying "eh, what comes, comes."

Besides, isn't this argument a fallacy of some kind? "Why would you be doing this, when you could be doing this instead?"

I'm not saying anything like that. You talk about "forcing the Kyoto Protocol down the U.S.'s throat." People are now coming to Alberta and shoving their foolishness down our throats. Are you an American? That might explain why you're ok with the most powerful economic driver in Canada being shut down while you keep driving to work, using copious amounts of electricity, and resisting the Kyoto Protocol being "shoved down you're throat" so you can live keep living in gluttony while complaining about other countries. But then again you don't have you're country on your'e profile.

No offense to Americans who pull their own weight.

...I guess "shove down throat" was the wrong phrasing, since I'm actually in favor of the Protocol.

Still, something tells me you're not particularly one to care. <url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYSYipouABI>So...

 

[Lonan]

Have any of you BEEN to the oilsands? Do you LIVE in Alberta? I have and do, let me tell you, it isn't the emissions that are so bad, it is the ABSOLUTE destruction of the entire environment in that area. It is appalling how huge they are. Furthermore, the tailing ponds of unrecoverable water kill many birds, the most notable being a case in which an alleged 500 ducks died. Well, I knew someone who worked there, he asked me to consider that most ducks sank after coming in contact with the sludge. The 500 were the birds that beached. THOUSANDS of migrant ducks died, we potentially killed an ENTIRE population of ducks in Alberta.

Well, right now a quarter of all species in the world are endangered because of global warming. I'm not concerned about one species of bird when a QUARTER, 1/4 are in danger right now. There's probably millions of ENTIRE populations of birds which are being killed from greenhouse gases.

So because bird's are in danger, you want to ignore the harm done to those you can save?

The oilsands brings huge amounts of money which are needed now to show the world how to get some god-damn renewable energy with REAL percentages of total power (if I hear 20% one more time I'm going to shoot someone) and have large amounts of capital to deal with the problems which will arise from a warming world

All those things can be done without mining tar for power, and natural gass ass a better cost-output ration anyway so all this is showing is how desperate and unwilling to change we really are.

EDIT: What is your stake in this? Why do you want this system in place so badly?

Because HUGE numbers of Canadians are employed by the oilsands. The way I see things, a bunch of foreigners are screwing over the people of another country, which emits 2% of the world's total greenhouse gases, while they sit on their high horses emitting the real CO2 and shrugging with indifference at their own environmental disasters. You know where the top ONE HUNDRED biggest environmental disasters in the world are located? (non CO2 related, as we seem to be past that) Outside of Canada. Outside of North America, in fact. All one hundred of them. All I hear is *****, *****, *****, my life is to pathetic too mind my own country's business. The sense of entitlement to getting involved with another countries affairs is astounding. You better hope we don't return the favour. Who knows what unsuspecting operation could become the symbol of all environmental evil next, you or someone you know could work for it. But I dream, now that they're narrowed in on the oilsands, they will never think of anything else until they are drowned by rising sea levels. By the way, I didn't mean to be rude directly at you, my contempt is at the people who actually flew (from as far as France) to the oilsands to drape their ridiculous banners over it. I apoligise if I caused offense.

 

[Lonan]

...I read all of that, and I still don't know what you're saying.

I'm saying that everyone is focusing on the microscopic amount of greenhouse gases coming from the oilsands has become the scapegoat of environmentalists, while the world is spinning towards biological collapse from all other sources of human greenhouse gas emissions. The oilsands have pretty much no impact on the atmosphere. The massive greenhouse gas emissions in the air from Europe and the U.S. and China are real threat, but people focus only on the oilsands. Does that make sense?

That does make more sense, yes.

I guess my answer then would be...no. I don't fault the environmentalists for getting upset over something like this. This is actually an accomplishable goal, as opposed to, say, getting rid of every country except Canada. Or forcing the Kyoto Protocol down the U.S.'s throat. Or making India move towards non-fossil fuels (I'm pretty sure China is already making headway in that area). Regardless of whether or not this is small fry in the large scheme of things, I don't blame people for trying to fight battles they can win as opposed to giving up entirely and saying "eh, what comes, comes."

Besides, isn't this argument a fallacy of some kind? "Why would you be doing this, when you could be doing this instead?"

I'm not saying anything like that. You talk about "forcing the Kyoto Protocol down the U.S.'s throat." People are now coming to Alberta and shoving their foolishness down our throats. Are you an American? That might explain why you're ok with the most powerful economic driver in Canada being shut down while you keep driving to work, using copious amounts of electricity, and resisting the Kyoto Protocol being "shoved down you're throat" so you can live keep living in gluttony while complaining about other countries. But then again you don't have you're country on your'e profile.

No offense to Americans who pull their own weight.

...I guess "shove down throat" was the wrong phrasing, since I'm actually in favor of the Protocol.

Still, something tells me you're not particularly one to care. <url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYSYipouABI>So...

I do care very much about the environment. I don't care much for other countries and provinces blaming all the woes of "climate change" on something that emits 0.2% of the worlds total emissions. I am also in favour of the protocol. I would create a "carbon quota" which would limit the amount of electricity, natural gas, gasoline, and water people can use. I apolagise for my rudeness, but I have absolutely had it with these attacks on Alberta's oilsands. And you're song is appropriate to the extent that mindless prejudice and refusal to take personal responsibility are exactly those who attack the oilsands, just like the parents in the south park movie. It's also great at the end because it says that they need to blame Canada before anyone thinks of blaming them for their children. You are wrong though in blaming Canada. The oilsands belong to Alberta only. This has been made very clear in the past.

And just to be clear, I have thought of blaming "us" as in the parents in the movie. In this case, everyone who sends HUGE amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere and then blames whoever is the least violent for their own gluttony.

 

[Lonan]

Ah yes the Oilsands and Green Peace. I live in Fort McMurray, the town which practically runs the Oilsands. If Green Peace were to get the Oilsands to shut down, there would be an unimaginable amount of people including myself and my father. This town would probably wilt to nothing, and so forth. Truthfully, from my personal knowledge, the companies that have plants out at the Oilsands such as Syncrude and Suncor, are trying to reduce the emissions they produce. Green Peace should go back to hugging their trees.

Thank you, I take it you don't drink a Frappa-lappa-dappa-chino every morning and blame all the worlds woes on "the corporations?"

Huh? I'm not blaming the world's woes on "The Corporations", it really is up to the companies to reduce the emissions. The government can only do so much. They can work in tandem with the companies to reduce said emissions, that's about it. Anyways, why would I bash "The Corporations" I work for? I was just telling the truth.

Sorry, I'm in angry rant mode right now, there will likely be collateral damage. I was happy with what you said, and then ranted about the people I view as those attacking the oilsands. I can't stop hearing about how bad the oilsands are, when they really aren't very bad.

 

[Knight Templar]

Have any of you BEEN to the oilsands? Do you LIVE in Alberta? I have and do, let me tell you, it isn't the emissions that are so bad, it is the ABSOLUTE destruction of the entire environment in that area. It is appalling how huge they are. Furthermore, the tailing ponds of unrecoverable water kill many birds, the most notable being a case in which an alleged 500 ducks died. Well, I knew someone who worked there, he asked me to consider that most ducks sank after coming in contact with the sludge. The 500 were the birds that beached. THOUSANDS of migrant ducks died, we potentially killed an ENTIRE population of ducks in Alberta.

Well, right now a quarter of all species in the world are endangered because of global warming. I'm not concerned about one species of bird when a QUARTER, 1/4 are in danger right now. There's probably millions of ENTIRE populations of birds which are being killed from greenhouse gases.

So because bird's are in danger, you want to ignore the harm done to those you can save?

The oilsands brings huge amounts of money which are needed now to show the world how to get some god-damn renewable energy with REAL percentages of total power (if I hear 20% one more time I'm going to shoot someone) and have large amounts of capital to deal with the problems which will arise from a warming world

All those things can be done without mining tar for power, and natural gass ass a better cost-output ration anyway so all this is showing is how desperate and unwilling to change we really are.

EDIT: What is your stake in this? Why do you want this system in place so badly?

Because HUGE numbers of Canadians are employed by the oilsands. The way I see things, a bunch of foreigners are screwing over the people of another country, which emits 2% of the world's total greenhouse gases, while they sit on their high horses emitting the real CO2 and shrugging with indifference at their own environmental disasters. You know where the top ONE HUNDRED biggest environmental disasters in the world are located? (non CO2 related, as we seem to be past that) Outside of Canada. Outside of North America, in fact. All one hundred of them. All I hear is *****, *****, *****, my life is to pathetic too mind my own country's business. The sense of entitlement to getting involved with another countries affairs is astounding. You better hope we don't return the favour.

Other people live on this earth as well, you can't fuck it up for a cheap buck.