Poll: Was anyone else offended by the justice/revenge-based messages of Batman Begins?

[LookAtYouHacker]

This has been bothering me for a lengthy period of time, especially since Batman Begins is one of my favourite films. Actually, I think it's a near masterpiece (in my mind, anyway.)

Ever since I've viewed Batman Begins, I've unintentionally experienced random anger when reminiscing some of the quotations regarding justice and revenge.

These mostly concern the discussion between Bruce and Rachel after Bruce attempts to kill Chill, Bruce's response to the execution regarding "compassion for the criminal", and the ending in which Bruce states he was "just a coward with a gun."

It's not that I had a ?problem? with the messages it was conveying, it's just that I interpreted an almost nauseating lack of empathy towards individuals who've been confronted with similar situations. This was also initiated when Rachel slapped Bruce.

To simplify what I?m attempting to delineate, the film (in my mind) states to the audience "if you've experienced suffering at the hands of another and felt even menially vengeful, be ashamed! You're a coward and no better than the criminals themselves!"

I suppose Ra?s-al-Ghul?s menial speech regarding internal suffering could be attributed to a display of compassion for those who feel murderously vengeful, but that?s all I can remember.

During its viewing, I increasingly perceived Batman Begins to be a film that was more guided by propaganda than a desire for story-telling. It seems to look for any opportunity to allow Bruce Almighty to preach to the audience what constitutes sincere justice, and how anyone who?s ever desired murderous vengeance should be ashamed.

Pertaining to a personal family experience of mine involving my now dead sister, I just think the writers of Batman Begins had an inadequate conception of the emotion that?s subsequently generated when made aware of such situations.

Additionally, I personally believe the derision of others who feel murderously vengeful is probably out of an abstract fear itself.

In other words, it?s easier for people to negatively portray disquieting individuals out of fear (such as suicidal people) rather than to establish understanding for their motivations, which would exponentially be more beneficial (and save more lives.)

Don?t get me wrong, I?m not saying taking murderous revenge should be lawfully acceptable or that I don?t understand the desired impartiality of the justice system. I simply thought the film (despite it being one of my favourites) was rather insensitive.

I've also menially experienced this elsewhere, notably in the Dark Knight and the anime series Full Metal Alchemist.

I fear I may be alone in my sentiments regarding this (I?ve forwarded this to others already), but I?ll see.

 

[krazykidd]

You are reading too much into it . Don't know what else to add . My condolences for you sister . Don't get too hung up about it , it's just a movie .

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

It's been a while since I've watched that movie, but wasn't it heavily pro-vengeance being, you know, a Batman movie? Anti-murder, yes, but not vengeance.

 

[LookAtYouHacker]

You are reading too much into it . Don't know what else to add . My condolences for you sister . Don't get too hung up about it , it's just a movie .

I really want to enjoy it, I think it's a brilliant film.

 

[LookAtYouHacker]

It's been a while since I've watched that movie, but wasn't it heavily pro-vengeance being, you know, a Batman movie? Anti-murder, yes, but not vengeance.

I was referring to when Bruce wanted to kill Chill.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

It's been a while since I've watched that movie, but wasn't it heavily pro-vengeance being, you know, a Batman movie? Anti-murder, yes, but not vengeance.

I was referring to when Bruce wanted to kill Chill.

Then, no, I wasn't against that. In fact, I'm against the death penalty. It doesn't stop being murder just because the person you're killing did something wrong, or because a judge and jury agreed on killing him. If anything, the whole judge and jury bit makes it worse, because it's a murder done in the coldest of cold blood. I'll accept revenge killings when we start killing judges and juries that sentence people to death, and the executioners that carry out the sentences.

 

[Froggy Slayer]

I don't think that it says that you're immoral for wanting vengeance at first, I think the message is more that you shouldn't hold onto your wish for revenge, that it can even be damaging if you hold on to that wish for too long.

 

[TehCookie]

Nope, while I disagree with it I have no problem being a villain in his mind. I mean the dude dresses up as a bat? He's clearly not mentally sound. Though I guess he doesn't notice since all his enemies are just as crazy, if not crazier than him.

 

[RJ 17]

Yeah, if you're asking me the broader picture of the movie (and really the entire Batman story) is that he's doing it all strictly to avenge his parents. He never cared about the underbelly of the city until his parents were murdered. Then he wants revenge. Then he realizes that killing for revenge makes him no better than the criminals he hates. As such he seeks his revenge on the criminals without stooping to their level. And that's what he calls "justice", fighting crime without becoming what you're fighting: a killer.

 

[Relish in Chaos]

To be honest, I think you?re reading too much into it. That?s not what the film was trying to be about. And besides, it may just be you disagreeing with Batman?s own personal brand of justice, which is an acceptable criticism.

As for the part where Rachel reprimands Bruce for trying to kill Joe Chill?apart from literally slapping a man who clearly hasn?t gotten over the death of his parents, despite the fact that it?s an understandable human action, killing Chill wouldn?t have brought his parents back, who probably would?ve been against that kind of vengeance in the first place. And what if he got caught? The Wayne empire or whatever would?ve gone under, destroying everything that his parents had worked so hard for to make Gotham City a better place.

Yeah, Batman?s a morally questionable antihero, but IMO, he genuinely wants to do good for Gotham. He?s not evil, he?s not a villain. He?s just somewhat off his rocker, but he?s never fallen into the abyss like so many others would (e.g. Harvey Dent).

 

[Bobic]

It's been a while since I've watched that movie, but wasn't it heavily pro-vengeance being, you know, a Batman movie? Anti-murder, yes, but not vengeance.

I was referring to when Bruce wanted to kill Chill.

Then, no, I wasn't against that. In fact, I'm against the death penalty. It doesn't stop being murder just because the person you're killing did something wrong, or because a judge and jury agreed on killing him. If anything, the whole judge and jury bit makes it worse, because it's a murder done in the coldest of cold blood. I'll accept revenge killings when we start killing judges and juries that sentence people to death, and the executioners that carry out the sentences.

Do you consider judges, juries, the police and prison staff to be kidnappers for holding people against their will? Should they themselves be kidnapped?

We have to accept that some liberties of criminals will be taken away when they are punished. It's fine to draw the line at the death penalty, and to be against it. But don't go calling those that do it just as bad as murderers, or saying they deserve death. The logic is faulty.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

It's been a while since I've watched that movie, but wasn't it heavily pro-vengeance being, you know, a Batman movie? Anti-murder, yes, but not vengeance.

I was referring to when Bruce wanted to kill Chill.

Then, no, I wasn't against that. In fact, I'm against the death penalty. It doesn't stop being murder just because the person you're killing did something wrong, or because a judge and jury agreed on killing him. If anything, the whole judge and jury bit makes it worse, because it's a murder done in the coldest of cold blood. I'll accept revenge killings when we start killing judges and juries that sentence people to death, and the executioners that carry out the sentences.

Do you consider judges, juries, the police and prison staff to be kidnappers for holding people against their will? Should they themselves be kidnapped?

We have to accept that some liberties of criminals will be taken away when they are punished. It's fine to draw the line at the death penalty, and to be against it. But don't go calling those that do it just as bad as murderers, or saying they deserve death. The logic is faulty.

I'm saying they're worse than most murderers for killing people in such cold blood. The death penalty is a downright barbaric practice. The US is in the auspicious company of places like China, North Korea, and Cuba in still having it, and away from pretty much anyone else that considers themselves a first world country.

 

[Muspelheim]

I do agree with the underlying arguement you have. I'm sorry, but telling someone that they ought to feel ashamed for their want of revenge when they have been wronged is not okay. It's perfectly natural to have those feeling, unless you're a passive mountainmonk or something. Telling them that is like whining at someone for feeling pain after hitting them on the knee with a bollard.

Of course, that doesn't mean that actually carrying out that revenge is A-ok. For instance; Breivik is a hated man, and it'd be wrong to say that anyone who wish him killed or want to harm him as retribution for what he's done should be ashamed of those feelings. Of course, actually doing that is another thing entirely.

The need for revenge is a feeling, and we can't control them. It's simply nothing to be ashamed of. But as with all feelings, it's what we do with them, how we deal with them, that matters.

Now, reguarding the film; it's a movie about a mentally ill man with plenty of dosh who decide to "deal" with his emotions by dressing up like an animal and beat up criminals. You shouldn't let something Batman thinks get to you too much, I think... At the end of the day, in this case, he's wrong. He's a lunatic trying to do what in his trauma-addled mind is the best for Gotham, basically. But above all; he's fictional. Treat anything that character has to say with suspicion, I'd say.

 

[LookAtYouHacker]

This has been bothering me for a lengthy period of time, especially since Batman Begins is one of my favourite films. Actually, I think it's a near masterpiece (in my mind, anyway.)

Ever since I've viewed Batman Begins, I've unintentionally experienced random anger when reminiscing some of the quotations regarding justice and revenge.

These mostly concern the discussion between Bruce and Rachel after Bruce attempts to kill Chill, and the ending in which Bruce "admits" he was "just a coward with a gun."

It's not that I had a ?problem? with the messages it was conveying, it's just that I interpreted an almost nauseating lack of empathy towards individuals who've been confronted with similar situations. This was also initiated when Rachel slapped Bruce.

To simplify what I?m attempting to delineate, the film (in my mind) states to the audience "if you've experienced suffering at the hands of another and felt even menially vengeful, be ashamed! You're a coward and no better than the criminals themselves!"

I suppose Ra?s-al-Ghul?s menial speech regarding internal suffering could be attributed to a display of compassion for those who feel murderously vengeful, but that?s all I can remember.

During its viewing, I increasingly perceived Batman Begins to be a film that was more guided by propaganda than a desire for story-telling. It seems to look for any opportunity to allow Bruce Almighty to preach to the audience what constitutes sincere justice, and how anyone who?s ever desired murderous vengeance should be ashamed.

Pertaining to a personal family experience of mine involving my now dead sister, I just think the writers of Batman Begins had an inadequate conception of the emotion that?s subsequently generated when made aware of such situations.

Additionally, I personally believe the derision of others who feel murderously vengeful is probably out of an abstract fear itself.

In other words, it?s easier for people to negatively portray disquieting individuals out of fear (such as suicidal people) rather than to establish understanding for their motivations, which would exponentially be more beneficial (and save more lives.)

Don?t get me wrong, I?m not saying taking murderous revenge should be lawfully acceptable or that I don?t understand the desired impartiality of the justice system. I simply thought the film (despite it being one of my favourites) was rather insensitive.

I've also menially experienced this elsewhere, notably in the Dark Knight and the anime series Full Metal Alchemist.

I fear I may be alone in my sentiments regarding this (I?ve forwarded this to others already), but I?ll see.

Can you give some examples in which you think revenge is justified?

I don't want to state that revenge is or isn't justified, my emotions often conflict with my objective logic. It's the lack of sympathy that I think is the problem.

 

[Basement Cat]

There was a message? MULTIPLE messages?

I honestly didn't even notice.

Seriously. I just watched a movie. It was about a comic book hero.

Having grown up on old comic books that were bound to the Comic Book Code (or whatever the official name is) I remember characters not even being able to say "hell." Instead they said "Go to Hades!"

Comics have changed in the last decade as the readers grew older, the books got more expensive, and companies started censoring themselves and flipping the CC Authority the bird, sure, but the older characters' life affirming values (Thou Shall Not Kill--sayeth the old censors) are being reevaluated and presented to a new generation that thinks the older books were hokey. This means that writers who deal with the characters have to either break from decades and decades of old work, use doublespeak and fast talk their way through explanations, or get deep and loquacious and boring.

No, I didn't notice any message. If there was supposed to be one I guess I glossed over it.

 

[LookAtYouHacker]

Isn't Batman the guy who says (in some other version):
"I am VENGEANCE, I am the night, I am Batman!"
Anywhore.

I know. I guess there are differing interpretations of Batman.