Poll: Would You Save This Person?

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Seldon2639

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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article6719226.ece

There are two different questions here, so I'd like to see if we can discuss them individually. The first is a very pragmatic question, and the second is a more moral (or, perhaps, at least normative) question about this young man's behavior itself.

The first question is given that there is a dearth of organs, and a huge waiting list, how (and whom) do you deny organs to? On some level, we have to prioritize and triage, our organ recipients. This can be almost purely based on chances of survival, long-term benefit from the organ, and whether the person has a high chance of destroying the new organ. In this case, my sense is that given that this person has been an alcoholic for nine years, giving him a new liver would be like giving a new heart to a fat guy who's had five heart attacks. Whether it's a disease or not (and I believe both are), is irrelevant; the fact that the same thing that killed the original organ will kill the new one is the only salient detail. While we can all feel sorry that he fell in with a bad crowd and basically ruined his life, can we really justify bumping someone else down the list to save his life without complete, one-hundred-percent sure, proof that he won't go back to drinking?

The second question is based on the premise that we have an infinite supply of organs, and that to help this young man would not prevent us from helping anyone else (so, similarly, ignore cost): would you want to save him then? There's a concept in economics and social science called "moral hazard" (which, ironically, has nothing to do with any sort of moral code). Moral hazard is, fundamentally, that when you decrease the costs of a behavior, or increase the rewards, it encourages the behavior; you get more of what you subsidize, for better or for worse. The sanest example is that when you give tax breaks to people who own houses, more people will buy houses. The most extreme example is that when you provide healthcare without it costing the people using it, they'll use it more (which is debatable, but not relevant to this question).

So, the argument goes: if we save this kid by giving him a new liver, we create a moral hazard about underage drinking (and binge drinking), that they can do it with no consequences, since someone else will step in and save them. This, of course, is a normative judgment that underage and binge drinking are "bad" things which we don't want to encourage.

So, here are my questions:

Do you save this young man, given the limited organ-related resources?

Would you save him if we had unlimited resources?
 

DirkGently

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Oct 22, 2008
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No, and no. Alcoholism and addication are not diseases. It is not something you cannot help. You are in that position solely because of your actions, not those of a microbe or something only visible under a microscope. I wouldn't save him either way.
 

DirkGently

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Cliff_m85 said:
Technically the best bet for organs would just be a lottery.
What? How? How does 'technically' come into play at all? How is random chance the best method for determining who gets a life saving organ and who doesn't when there is perfectly good quantifiable data on which to judge the need of those in danger?
 

101194

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Nov 11, 2008
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Nope Nope, I'm evil, But on a serious note, If your stupid enough to drink large amounts of booze and Binge at 13, You certainly desirve to die. For Evolutions sake. (note I'm not trying to troll here)
 

The_Echo

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Don't save him. There's a reason you have to be a certain age to drink, and there's a reason every alcohol commercial warns you to "drink responsibly." If he ends up being saved, I hope he learns his lesson. If not, good riddance. We have too many cretins on this planet as-is.
 

bookboy

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DirkGently said:
Cliff_m85 said:
Technically the best bet for organs would just be a lottery.
What? How? How does 'technically' come into play at all? How is random chance the best method for determining who gets a life saving organ and who doesn't when there is perfectly good quantifiable data on which to judge the need of those in danger?
I would argue that Organ replacement already is like a lottery, consider this. due to the difficulty of transport and storage, not only do you have to get to the top of the waiting line before you die, but you then also need to hope that someone close enough to you (Proximity) donates the correct organ in time, and then hope that you can get it transplanted before it dies, and then hope that your body doesn't reject it. that's a lot of risk for a chance at only a few more years of life.

OT: I would not save him either way for the same reasons as DirkGently
 

PyroZombie

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Apr 24, 2009
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Due to my nature, I would.

I wouldn't do it to save his life, but i would give it to him simply because i plan not to drink.
 

DirkGently

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Oct 22, 2008
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bookboy said:
DirkGently said:
Cliff_m85 said:
Technically the best bet for organs would just be a lottery.
What? How? How does 'technically' come into play at all? How is random chance the best method for determining who gets a life saving organ and who doesn't when there is perfectly good quantifiable data on which to judge the need of those in danger?
I would argue that Organ replacement already is like a lottery, consider this. due to the difficulty of transport and storage, not only do you have to get to the top of the waiting line before you die, but you then also need to hope that someone close enough to you (Proximity) donates the correct organ in time, and then hope that you can get it transplanted before it dies, and then hope that your body doesn't reject it. that's a lot of risk for a chance at only a few more years of life.

OT: I would not save him either way for the same reasons as DirkGently
Yes, but that's more "Life is shitty" and not "We're going to dick you because to make it fair to everyone."
 

Fenring

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Sep 5, 2008
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For the first it ranges from a 'no' to a 'maybe'. I my self probably wouldn't do such a thing if given the chance, I would rather someone who would not need another organ in the near future receive it. They would live a sizable amount of time longer, while a drunk could need another liver once the new one became sufficiently damaged, thus possibly taking the liver away from a third patient down the line. It's two live verses one.

If I was medical professional I would try to treat my patients semi-equally, organs would be given on a who needs it soonest basis, as I don't think a major hospital would have enough man-power to go through every application on a case-by-case basis.

As to the second question, I would. I don't think telling people that they can get new organs would cause them to act drastically different, and still the operation would cost quite a bit. If a populous was told they could have as many new limbs as they wanted as long as they could afford the price of the limb and the operation, I don't think the next day you would see a huge rise in the number of people who's arms and legs were hurt or detached (I think this is a stupid analogy, but I think it gets my point across and is the best I could come up with.). As long as there is a supply of organs and the patients are willing to pay for surgery, I don't see a problem.
 

Cody211282

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Apr 25, 2009
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No and no, I knew before going into middle school what drugs, alcohol, and unprotected sex could do to your body and your life(mind you my mom was a nurse so that might be why), my uncle had problem with drugs so i got to see and hear a little of that to. His parents are unforgivably stupid for not doing something about a 13 year old drinking like that and he has to take responsibility for what he did as well. Sorry kid you brought this on yourself hopefully this serves to stop other kids from doing the same.
 

sgtshock

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Feb 11, 2009
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"Madeline Hanshaw, 44, his mother, said: ?Gary didn?t know what he was doing when he was 13. He didn?t know it would come to this when he was 22. He didn?t know he was going to die. All his friends who were drinking with him are still at home, they are fine.?"

But who honestly takes up drinking thinking "Well, I'll probably get liver disease, but I'm gonna start binge drinking anyway!" Gary would have had to be massively ill-informed or incredibly irresponsible to think that what he was drinking wasn't going to harm him. Even if all his friends are fine, he had to have known that he was drinking considerably more. And the parents share partial blame as well. They should have payed closer attention to what he was really doing. Why should we give an organ to them when there are so many more people who need a liver, people who were developed alcoholism from crippling depression or other more understandable circumstances.

However, if we theoretically did have an unlimited supply of organs, then not saving him would be out of the question. Yes, it was an incredibly stupid thing to do, but death is death. You don't punish mistakes by letting them die, otherwise they'd never learn their lesson. But as long as the supply is limited, the more worthy should get fixed first.
 

Delicious

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Jan 22, 2009
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No, because it would most likely waste the liver on someone who has no one dependent on him. I'd much rather give it to a father of young children or someone with similar responsibilities.

Yes to the second because liver transplants aren't magical cure-all's that make liver disease a cake walk and he doesn't deserve to die simply because underage drinking is bad. That is punishing on principle - a concept that cares nothing for fairness or righteous as much as it cares for vengefully destroying people to prove a point.
 

GoldenRaz

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Mar 21, 2009
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Not really and yes:

If he skipped school so that he could do something that is known to do this to your body, then he shouldn't have the luxury to have the benefits others have, since he lacks the same ability to contribute to society. But if it happens to be that a liver is donated in his proximity and nobody "smarter" is in range to get it, then he should have it.

If we had an unlimited supply of spare parts, then everybody should have a second chance, but that would be the LAST chance of "redemption"; if he would continue with his destructive behaviour, then he has forfeited his medical priviledges concerning alcohol-related deceases.

That's my uneducated (and tired) accessment of this topic.
 

koga88

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May 19, 2009
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No to both questions. The boy doesn't need a new liver, only to have a chance to fall back into a destructive lifestyle again. I don't know much about how the education system in Essex handles topics such as alcohol, cigarettes, drugs, and STDs. But in 6th grade we were taught what would happen to us if we used/contracted these things. People should be held responsible for their actions, he had at the last 5 years to stop his over consumption of alcohol before it would have led to this.

Also not to push the blame off the boy, but where was the mother with all of this happening over the last 9 years? Didn't she notice her sons behavior? Or if he didn't drink at home she never noticed that he probably had massive hangovers and would reek of alcohol some days? Also, why didn't the school ever notify the mother at the fact her son was missing massive amount of schooldays? Even if he called himself in, its hard not to think that those around him also dropped the ball. But regardless of that fact, it is still his own fault and he shouldn't receive another liver while others that have legitimate medical problems need a transplant.
 

Cliff_m85

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Feb 6, 2009
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DirkGently said:
Cliff_m85 said:
Technically the best bet for organs would just be a lottery.
What? How? How does 'technically' come into play at all? How is random chance the best method for determining who gets a life saving organ and who doesn't when there is perfectly good quantifiable data on which to judge the need of those in danger?
It's not my job to judge people as a doctor. Everyone should get a fair shot at the organ.
 

chiggerwood

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May 10, 2009
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Speaking as someone who's brothers have been alchoholics\drug addicts...fuck 'im. He knew the consequences of drinking and he did it anyway. I say save the organs for people who need them and didn't screw themselves up.

EDIT: Where the hell was his mother when he doing this!?!?
 
Nov 28, 2007
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I said yes, but that's because I believe anyone who isn't breaking the laws or violating someone else's basic rights deserves a second chance.
 

vampirekid.13

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May 8, 2009
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that is a very complex question, i personally am torn up between all the choices you put down so i will not click one, however i will comment on his predicament.

i started drinking when i was 6...yes i am serious, when i was 6 i was drinking both heavy alcohol and light alcohol, i drank beer, champagne, wine, vodka...starting at 6. my family always allowed it. which taught me moderation. right now i am 22 and i am fine, because i learned how to enjoy myself w/o abusing alcohol. with that in mind i can honestly say that i could care less what happens with him. i can honestly say that i dont see him needing a liver transplant over a more deserving person.

now the issue here is that his mom did not take the time to teach him to drink properly, and moderation, neither did my mom, but im intelligent. he's not (sorry to sound like an ass but its true) with that said i think that not knowing better he should be given a second chance to sober up.

but if we give him a second chance the next argument is giving someone a third chance. and then a fourth...and giving everyone a 2nd chance, we simply dont have the organs to do that, especially when you have people like me, that blatantly refuse to donate anything more than blood (and im ineligible for blood donations anyway) in the world. So we cant give him a 2nd chance and risk it being the new standard.

on the other hand his dimwitted mother did take the blame for it and said she wasnt there...so maybe he'll learn after this, but what if he doesnt? i dont particularly have any faith in a person like him, i think he'll go straight back to drinking, and i dont feel he should get the liver without proving he can be sober...but he cant do that...so i guess he shoudlnt get it.

either way, thats just me...im totally torn up, but the "he didnt know any better" excuse is stupid, especially since ive been drinking 7 years longer than him (we're the same age).


maybe its about time we start enforcing "survival of the fittest" and darwinism in general and cleanse the gene pool a bit.