Poll: Your opinion, on...ILLEGAL DOWNLOADING

[The Bandit]

It's wrong. It's not your shit and you're not supporting the artist by stealing it. Yes, you are stealing it. Taking something that does not belong to you, that you have not paid for, is stealing. It's a clear-cut, black and white definition. It's only your whining that grays the area.

"houlier than thou"? What do you mean?

As in a do-gooder who says "Your bad cuz u steel moneezz"

Like the people at the Westboro baptist church [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wvLEtRSCiE&feature=related]

I see.

My opinion is that downloading is not stealing at all. You are not taking something, only walking up to it and making a copy of it. Nothing is taken from those who produce it.

Nothing is taken, but the ones who produced it aren't getting their money either. In a way you stealing their money by not paying up for a product.

Paint it as you want, it's a sort of crime. Not a major one, unless you selling and making a profit out of it.

Making a profit out of illegal downloading is a pure dick move. But what if you can't get some things at the store? What if it's no longer being sold, or is a foreign product? Sometimes if you want something, illegal downloading is your only option.

That's a pretty crappy argument, honestly. Unless you just live in a crazy censored country, you can find most anything you want on Amazon or eBay or another equivalent. And saying "waaaah i cant find it" isn't an excuse. It doesn't give you some right to obtain it by any means necessary.

I consider it morally wrong, but I typically don't have a problem with people who at least admit it's wrong and do it anyway. There isn't much incentive to uphold the law if your chances of getting caught are about as slim as winning the lottery. When I see half-baked excuses trying to defend it, though, it's just annoying. You're wrong. It's OK. Not everyone's perfect.

Not everyone can use eBay or Amazon.

So you're basically calling my argument shit because you don't agree with it. Wow. How intellectual of you.

I just... I just don't even know, dude. I can't even respond to that ridiculousness. Really? Is that what I said? I mean, to be fair, I didn't write a detailed essay giving valid reasons as to why your argument failed, but I gave one or two a brief mention didn't I? Christ. I wasn't even trying to be rude with you.

Your argument failed because, as I already conceded, unless you live in a crazy censored country YOU HAVE ACCESS TO THE WHOLE INTERNET. You can find ANYTHING on the Internet. Literally. Who else doesn't have access to eBay or Amazon? This isn't me arguing with you, I'm sincerely curious.

Your argument further fails because, again, AS I STATED your inability to find a product does not give you a right to obtain it through any means. Why? Because it's stealing. There's no arguing this point without trying to turn the definition into vagueness, defeating the whole purpose of definitions. Words have an exact meaning for a reason. If you don't pay for a product, it's stealing. End of story.

EDIT: I, ironically enough, answered the edit to your post in my edited original post. Go back and read it.

The issue is not with the actual access, obviously, but the means to buy things via the Internet.

And enough with the edits already.

So, who doesn't have the means to buy things via the Internet?

More people than you think, actually.

Don't even get me started about people who don't have the money.

You've yet to answer my question. Who doesn't have means to buy the things? Money isn't a logical concern. If you're that poor, things that can be pirated shouldn't even be on your priority list, and if they are, it truly explains why that person's poor.

Don't dodge the subject, either. I don't care about your Communistic ideals and how they're superior to greedy capitalism. I don't deal in what-ifs. The world as we're referring to it, the world that has the means to pirate materials, deals in a mostly capitalistic system (you pay for shit with currency). So, among those that CAN pirate things, who among them can't find the product they want for a fee? Answer. The. Question.

 

[Akai Shizuku]

It's wrong. It's not your shit and you're not supporting the artist by stealing it. Yes, you are stealing it. Taking something that does not belong to you, that you have not paid for, is stealing. It's a clear-cut, black and white definition. It's only your whining that grays the area.

"houlier than thou"? What do you mean?

As in a do-gooder who says "Your bad cuz u steel moneezz"

Like the people at the Westboro baptist church [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wvLEtRSCiE&feature=related]

I see.

My opinion is that downloading is not stealing at all. You are not taking something, only walking up to it and making a copy of it. Nothing is taken from those who produce it.

Nothing is taken, but the ones who produced it aren't getting their money either. In a way you stealing their money by not paying up for a product.

Paint it as you want, it's a sort of crime. Not a major one, unless you selling and making a profit out of it.

Making a profit out of illegal downloading is a pure dick move. But what if you can't get some things at the store? What if it's no longer being sold, or is a foreign product? Sometimes if you want something, illegal downloading is your only option.

That's a pretty crappy argument, honestly. Unless you just live in a crazy censored country, you can find most anything you want on Amazon or eBay or another equivalent. And saying "waaaah i cant find it" isn't an excuse. It doesn't give you some right to obtain it by any means necessary.

I consider it morally wrong, but I typically don't have a problem with people who at least admit it's wrong and do it anyway. There isn't much incentive to uphold the law if your chances of getting caught are about as slim as winning the lottery. When I see half-baked excuses trying to defend it, though, it's just annoying. You're wrong. It's OK. Not everyone's perfect.

Not everyone can use eBay or Amazon.

So you're basically calling my argument shit because you don't agree with it. Wow. How intellectual of you.

I just... I just don't even know, dude. I can't even respond to that ridiculousness. Really? Is that what I said? I mean, to be fair, I didn't write a detailed essay giving valid reasons as to why your argument failed, but I gave one or two a brief mention didn't I? Christ. I wasn't even trying to be rude with you.

Your argument failed because, as I already conceded, unless you live in a crazy censored country YOU HAVE ACCESS TO THE WHOLE INTERNET. You can find ANYTHING on the Internet. Literally. Who else doesn't have access to eBay or Amazon? This isn't me arguing with you, I'm sincerely curious.

Your argument further fails because, again, AS I STATED your inability to find a product does not give you a right to obtain it through any means. Why? Because it's stealing. There's no arguing this point without trying to turn the definition into vagueness, defeating the whole purpose of definitions. Words have an exact meaning for a reason. If you don't pay for a product, it's stealing. End of story.

EDIT: I, ironically enough, answered the edit to your post in my edited original post. Go back and read it.

The issue is not with the actual access, obviously, but the means to buy things via the Internet.

And enough with the edits already.

So, who doesn't have the means to buy things via the Internet?

More people than you think, actually.

Don't even get me started about people who don't have the money.

You've yet to answer my question. Who doesn't have means to buy the things? Money isn't a logical concern. If you're that poor, things that can be pirated shouldn't even be on your priority list, and if they are, it truly explains why that person's poor.

Don't dodge the subject, either. I don't care about your Communistic ideals and how they're superior to greedy capitalism. I don't deal in what-ifs. The world as we're referring to it, the world that has the means to pirate materials, deals in a mostly capitalistic system (you pay for shit with currency). So, among those that CAN pirate things, who among them can't find the product they want for a fee? Answer. The. Question.

I didn't bring politics into this because this that wouldn't be the kind of thread I wanted this to be.

Some products just can't be found anywhere but the Internet anymore.

 

[Samurai Goomba]

"houlier than thou"? What do you mean?

As in a do-gooder who says "Your bad cuz u steel moneezz"

Like the people at the Westboro baptist church [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wvLEtRSCiE&feature=related]

I see.

My opinion is that downloading is not stealing at all. You are not taking something, only walking up to it and making a copy of it. Nothing is taken from those who produce it.

See I'd say that you are in fact taking the potential earnings from someone, as if there was no way of pirating a certain item you may have brought it legally and you are therefore actually stealing profit.

I myself have no problem with people who pirate its just those who try and justify it, you are stealing and it is illegal, you could really be hurting someone's cash flow out there, I myself have no morals however so its not a problem for me.

Piracy is not stealing. Saying it is does not make it so. Piracy is illegal copying. If you copy a book, you did not steal it. The original is sitting right there. If you copy a movie, you did not steal it. The original movie is right there. Nobody has been deprived of their movie or book.

If you would support copying a movie, copying a book or downloading a song, you have no business telling someone they are in the wrong for doing the EXACT SAME THING, only with a game. There's no difference.

When I steal your TV, I am giving myself a TV and you are losing one. When I copy the design specs and build a TV that looks and works exactly like yours, your TV is still there.

Just because somebody MIGHT buy a game and now they MIGHT not because of piracy doesn't mean it's 100% certain the game devs lost money. People will take all kinds of stuff for free that they wouldn't pay for in real life.

Also, what's with this double standard business? It's stealing and that's bad, but it's okay for you to do because you have no morals? I really doubt that.

Avykins has it right here. Piracy discussions just give people a chance to inflate their own egos. I've played emulated games, and I've even bought games I've played on emulator that I wouldn't have payed for if I hadn't played them first. I don't justify it, but I'm tired of people acting sanctimonious about this issue when there's a lot more to consider, like how any game that isn't sold new anymore is a game the developers don't make money off of anyway. And how SecuRom and the like can wreck your computer. Or maybe some people just don't like malware in their computer.

 

[The Bandit]

Some products just can't be found anywhere but the Internet anymore.

Normally, at this point, I would shift gears and instead ask whether or not you only illegally download things after diligently searching for them all across the Internet and in brick and mortar stores. But, we both already know the answer to that question, so I'll just ask for an example of a product that can't be found anywhere except on Pirate Bay.

 

[oliveira8]

*snip*

Quite simple.

1) The person in question doesn't have a credit card or a debit card fit for Internet purchases.
2) The website in question doesn't export to the country in question.
3) Customs doesn't let the said product pass.
4) Shipping costs are ridiculous.


Gave you 4 reasons.

 

[Captain Pancake]

No, not really. If i want something, I go out and buy it. I don't want no trouble with "the plod".

 

[Nazulu]

I download music and then buy the CD later if I really like it, otherwise it will just sit in a separate folder till deleted for space.

 

[The Bandit]

It's wrong. It's not your shit and you're not supporting the artist by stealing it. Yes, you are stealing it. Taking something that does not belong to you, that you have not paid for, is stealing. It's a clear-cut, black and white definition. It's only your whining that grays the area.

"houlier than thou"? What do you mean?

As in a do-gooder who says "Your bad cuz u steel moneezz"

Like the people at the Westboro baptist church [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wvLEtRSCiE&feature=related]

I see.

My opinion is that downloading is not stealing at all. You are not taking something, only walking up to it and making a copy of it. Nothing is taken from those who produce it.

Nothing is taken, but the ones who produced it aren't getting their money either. In a way you stealing their money by not paying up for a product.

Paint it as you want, it's a sort of crime. Not a major one, unless you selling and making a profit out of it.

Making a profit out of illegal downloading is a pure dick move. But what if you can't get some things at the store? What if it's no longer being sold, or is a foreign product? Sometimes if you want something, illegal downloading is your only option.

That's a pretty crappy argument, honestly. Unless you just live in a crazy censored country, you can find most anything you want on Amazon or eBay or another equivalent. And saying "waaaah i cant find it" isn't an excuse. It doesn't give you some right to obtain it by any means necessary.

I consider it morally wrong, but I typically don't have a problem with people who at least admit it's wrong and do it anyway. There isn't much incentive to uphold the law if your chances of getting caught are about as slim as winning the lottery. When I see half-baked excuses trying to defend it, though, it's just annoying. You're wrong. It's OK. Not everyone's perfect.

Not everyone can use eBay or Amazon.

So you're basically calling my argument shit because you don't agree with it. Wow. How intellectual of you.

I just... I just don't even know, dude. I can't even respond to that ridiculousness. Really? Is that what I said? I mean, to be fair, I didn't write a detailed essay giving valid reasons as to why your argument failed, but I gave one or two a brief mention didn't I? Christ. I wasn't even trying to be rude with you.

Your argument failed because, as I already conceded, unless you live in a crazy censored country YOU HAVE ACCESS TO THE WHOLE INTERNET. You can find ANYTHING on the Internet. Literally. Who else doesn't have access to eBay or Amazon? This isn't me arguing with you, I'm sincerely curious.

Your argument further fails because, again, AS I STATED your inability to find a product does not give you a right to obtain it through any means. Why? Because it's stealing. There's no arguing this point without trying to turn the definition into vagueness, defeating the whole purpose of definitions. Words have an exact meaning for a reason. If you don't pay for a product, it's stealing. End of story.

EDIT: I, ironically enough, answered the edit to your post in my edited original post. Go back and read it.

The issue is not with the actual access, obviously, but the means to buy things via the Internet.

And enough with the edits already.

So, who doesn't have the means to buy things via the Internet?

More people than you think, actually.

Don't even get me started about people who don't have the money.

You've yet to answer my question. Who doesn't have means to buy the things? Money isn't a logical concern. If you're that poor, things that can be pirated shouldn't even be on your priority list, and if they are, it truly explains why that person's poor.

Don't dodge the subject, either. I don't care about your Communistic ideals and how they're superior to greedy capitalism. I don't deal in what-ifs. The world as we're referring to it, the world that has the means to pirate materials, deals in a mostly capitalistic system (you pay for shit with currency). So, among those that CAN pirate things, who among them can't find the product they want for a fee? Answer. The. Question.

Quite simple.

1) The person in question doesn't have a credit card or a debit card fit for Internet purshaces.
2) The website in question doesn't export to the country in question.
3) Customs doesn't let the said product pass.
4) Shipping costs are ridiculous.


Gave you 4 reasons.

You're probably thinking I was pounding Akai because I thought there wasn't an answer. I wasn't, but I thank you for actually having the capacity to answer a question straight-forward. The first three I'll allow. The last is ridiculous. It's effectively saying "the price is too much, I should be able to set my own price on anything."

So, the three reasons that are actually justifiable, gives you the right to take it without paying for it, because you really, really want it?

 

[C117]

I download, but only when it comes to things that ain't avaible in my vicinity, like really old games.

 

[Akai Shizuku]

Some products just can't be found anywhere but the Internet anymore.

Normally, at this point, I would shift gears and instead ask whether or not you only illegally download things after diligently searching for them all across the Internet and in brick and mortar stores. But, we both already know the answer to that question, so I'll just ask for an example of a product that can't be found anywhere except on Pirate Bay.

Lots of abandonware.

 

[oliveira8]

*snip*

Thje fourth one can actually be reasoned with when the shipping costs are bigger than the product itself, but it doesn't really apply to software.

But it's a reason to why Internet shopping is a *****.

 

[Akai Shizuku]

*snip*

Quite simple.

1) The person in question doesn't have a credit card or a debit card fit for Internet purchases.
2) The website in question doesn't export to the country in question.
3) Customs doesn't let the said product pass.
4) Shipping costs are ridiculous.


Gave you 4 reasons.

Also don't forget legality of the item, such as Manhunt in Australia.

 

[The Bandit]

*snip*

Thje fourth one can actually be reasoned with when the shipping costs are bigger than the product itself, but it doesn't really apply to software.

I'm not saying a shipping price can't be ridiculous. Of course it can. I paid more on shipping on a text book recently than the actual book cost. Completely ridiculous. But, I did so BECAUSE I NEEDED IT. I determined that the ridiculous price was worth how much I needed it. That's how capitalism works. It isn't you pay when you feel like, and if it's too much you just turn around and get it for free. Talking about your rights when it comes to money is asinine. The only right you have with money is what you can afford to buy with it.

EDIT: Meh, I replied before your edit. Oh well.

 

[oliveira8]

*snip*

Quite simple.

1) The person in question doesn't have a credit card or a debit card fit for Internet purchases.
2) The website in question doesn't export to the country in question.
3) Customs doesn't let the said product pass.
4) Shipping costs are ridiculous.


Gave you 4 reasons.

Also don't forget legality of the item, such as Manhunt in Australia.

Thats implied to the third line. Customs doesn't let pass products for these reason:

1) it's illegal.
2) It contains suspicious materials.
3) They kept it for themselfs.
4) The asshole that was working that day, shiped it back to Hong Kong cause he caught his wife sleeping with someone else.

 

[social_outcast]

Its important to realise that torrent technology is not, in itself, illegal (I believe bittorrent code now goes into many distributed systems as a means of bottleneck avoidance).

Furthermore, on the subject of copyright infringment, it has been proven that people who download are acutally more likely to buy the product in the end.

In these times, companies have to adapt to the changing market - In other words, obey the 8 generatives:

http://www.kk.org/thetechnium/archives/2008/01/better_than_fre.php

 

[Valiance]

I can't find my Heroes of Might and Magic disk, and I wanted to play it, so I torrented it.

A Dire Straits album that my friend is borrowing had a few songs I wanted to hear - but I stupidly never ripped it to MP3s on my computer. Instead of watching crappy fan-made videos on youtube, I torrented the album.

I purchased Diablo II a long, long time ago. The game has a music.mpq or some bullshit 600 meg single file that the music is IN, but not extractable out of unless you have a program that can read/analyze it. Considering that I purchased the game, and the soundtrack is within the game, I torrented the soundtrack so I can hear it without being in the game.

I do things like this often. Abandonware that "isn't really abandonware" but I can't actually find it anywhere else. Etc.

 

[thebrainiac1]

I'm not doing anything bad, I'm giving them free publicity. Anything that I download, I would never have thought of buying.

If its good, I'll buy it myself, recommend it to my friends, who will then go buy it themselves, as they all have similar tastes.

If it's a bad game/movie/song, the developers don't make money out of me. If I find I do like it, they make a large sum out of me and my friends, all out of a single download which cost them nothing.

 

[SomeBritishDude]

I pirate a hell lot of movies.

*Holds up his hands* What can I say? I can't say I'm going to buy them afterwards because most of the time I don't. And I'm not going to say it's my right because I know it's not.

All I know is I've seen a hell lot of awesome movies since I discover the joy of piracy.

 

[ace_of_something]

Most games have demos now, most albums have downloadable limited play songs, and netflix is like $14 a month if you want blu-rays.
The "I'm just testing it out argument" is no longer valid. Theft of services is still a crime. This is like hiring a maid and than not paying here or sneaking into a movie. Just because it doesn't give you something tangible doesn't make it any less real and any less worth money.

Then again I am a holier than thou type... :-\