Quality....

[IDBash]

I realized something the other day that made me chuckle... You see, there was this article in the paper about the best coffee, correction highest quality coffee, in the bay area and they selected this small 1 shop coffee house across the street from a local college. I have been to this place, and I have to admit it is a cool coffee house, but the coffee; it NEVER tastes the same, never tastes bad, but Never the same. Which brought me to think about something...

Starbucks may not have the absolute best coffee, but it is dependably good.. I have never gotten a shitty cup of coffee at starbucks; I may have gotten some burned milk or some expired shots here and there, but it always tastes pretty good, and occassionally I get a perfect cup of coffee that puts all others to shame. Whereas places such as these, that roast their own beans, the flavor will be this one day, and that another day. Also, the amount of caffeine in this drink will not be the same as the caffeine in the next.

That is something that has gotten lost on the upcoming and in place generations, just like logic, the meaning of quality has gone away. Quality is a good repeatable product that has the same affect everytime. Think about it, when you buy a Honda off the lot you expect certain things out of them. They will not break often, they will run forever, and they look half decent; that is quality workmanship. Whereas Chrysler or Audi, yes they may look great, but they completely miss the meaning of quality, one will run for 100,000 with no problems and the one right next to it will make it 100...

So why do we use flavor as the marker of quality in Coffee? Why do we use graphics as a marker of quality in Games ever? In both cases they should be the icing on the cake, not the real reason for buying the product. But more times than I can count the selling point for this system is its state-of-the-art graphics, or this game pushes the visual boundries, or you have to see it to believe it... I mean really... I don't give a rat's ass about graphics UNLESS there is a good game there too. So please everyone stop talking about graphics and start talking about story and gameplay and originality. And game developers, forget about the graphics until you have nailed the other 3.

ED: Totally random tidbit... The reason behind the weird names at Starbucks is that initially there was 2 sizes, Short and Tall. Then the inevitable happened, Grande appeared.. then Venti.

 

[AvsJoe]

I really like this post, but I have to disagree with you. The best quality is the single best of anything at one time. For instance, I know a great pizza joint back home (Pizza King @ Faces) that offers excellent pizza whenever you order; has the best ground beef and crusts in the city, and is relatively inexpensive with some good deals. But I still choose another joint who's pizza isn't nearly as tasty (Armando's) because I got the perfect pizza there once. Just once. But that's what I consider quality: that one moment of pizza bliss that no other pizza joint has given me.

Armando's pizza. Quality.

(Okay, I should stop before this sounds even more like an advertisement.)

 

[IDBash]

I really like this post, but I have to disagree with you. The best quality is the single best of anything at one time. For instance, I know a great pizza joint back home (Pizza King @ Faces) that offers excellent pizza whenever you order; has the best ground beef and crusts in the city, and is relatively inexpensive with some good deals. But I still choose another joint who's pizza isn't nearly as tasty (Armando's) because I got the perfect pizza there once. Just once. But that's what I consider quality: that one moment of pizza bliss that no other pizza joint has given me.

Armando's pizza. Quality.

(Okay, I should stop before this sounds even more like an advertisement.)

See now... food is a different story all together, because it is not a science. With Coffee there are exacts that can not change and you will 100% of the time get the same result. Whereas with foods cooking will vary based on oven and each individual food item you are cooking. So I would agree with you, but real quality is when you get perfection 100% of the time.. For instance I go to a breakfast lunch diner that makes the PERFECT French Dip... I have never ordered a single other item on their menu because it is so perfect.. never ever had a bad one, and it tastes exactly the same everytime I go there. That is quality.. a fluke in food typically means a new or different cook. Now in coffee, assuming they follow the recipe it always turns out the same. It does not take the person that discovered the recipe to hit it just right.

Now as for how this relates to games, Valve... dependable old cow. Graphics are always just par for the generation but their games play perfectly. I have never found myself yelling at the game like I do in say MW2... When I go forward, I go forward... doesn't matter if there is a miniscule step in my way or a ladder. In MW2 you have to be damn lucky to make it up a curb in a pinch. Also, I never find myself laughing at the main character's silence as I laughed at serious lines in MW2, I also never yawned in any of the HL single-player games. Sure there was not really anything groundbreaking after HL(1) but that's all right because it was a quality playable game.

Random Thought: I busted out my old copy of HL and set it up for a small lan party... it still plays better than a lot of games today... I thought it was humorous.

 

[thenamelessloser]

I don't think I agree with the analogy between coffee/caffeine and video games/graphics. People drink decaf coffee as well. Many people drink coffee for the flavor. I myself do not like coffee so if I want caffeine I may have hot chocolate or tea. If the flavor of the coffee sucks then I don't see why one should drink over some other beverage with caffeine. Flavor is pivotal to the experience of coffee I think in a way that graphics aren't for video games. A game can have terrible graphics or even no graphics and still be enjoyable but I don't see how any beverage could be fun if it taste lousy except maybe alcohol. (joking)Addenum- Realize a mistake I made which is the fact I think the topic poster wanted the coffee to not be bad tasting but it doesn't matter if it is great... But I'm not exactly sure.

Also the best rationalization for Starbucks coffee I seen is an essay that analyzes the underpants gnomes episode of south park- http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/cantor3.html

 

[BlindMessiah94]

I really like this post, but I have to disagree with you. The best quality is the single best of anything at one time. For instance, I know a great pizza joint back home (Pizza King @ Faces) that offers excellent pizza whenever you order; has the best ground beef and crusts in the city, and is relatively inexpensive with some good deals. But I still choose another joint who's pizza isn't nearly as tasty (Armando's) because I got the perfect pizza there once. Just once. But that's what I consider quality: that one moment of pizza bliss that no other pizza joint has given me.

Armando's pizza. Quality.

(Okay, I should stop before this sounds even more like an advertisement.)

See now... food is a different story all together, because it is not a science. With Coffee there are exacts that can not change and you will 100% of the time get the same result. Whereas with foods cooking will vary based on oven and each individual food item you are cooking. So I would agree with you, but real quality is when you get perfection 100% of the time.. For instance I go to a breakfast lunch diner that makes the PERFECT French Dip... I have never ordered a single other item on their menu because it is so perfect.. never ever had a bad one, and it tastes exactly the same everytime I go there. That is quality.. a fluke in food typically means a new or different cook. Now in coffee, assuming they follow the recipe it always turns out the same. It does not take the person that discovered the recipe to hit it just right.

Now as for how this relates to games, Valve... dependable old cow. Graphics are always just par for the generation but their games play perfectly. I have never found myself yelling at the game like I do in say MW2... When I go forward, I go forward... doesn't matter if there is a miniscule step in my way or a ladder. In MW2 you have to be damn lucky to make it up a curb in a pinch. Also, I never find myself laughing at the main character's silence as I laughed at serious lines in MW2, I also never yawned in any of the HL single-player games. Sure there was not really anything groundbreaking after HL(1) but that's all right because it was a quality playable game.

Random Thought: I busted out my old copy of HL and set it up for a small lan party... it still plays better than a lot of games today... I thought it was humorous.

Actually, food is a science. It's called gastronomy.

Anyhow, I have to say your starbucks example is pretty blah for me. Everytime I go to Starbucks they can never get my orders right. But I see your overall point, instead of sublime quality how about average half decent dependable consistency? I'm with the Armando Pizza theory. If I buy something once that is pretty much a life changing experience, even if it's inconsistent I'm probably gonna go there again and again, on the chance I might experience that perfection again.

 

[likalaruku]

I used to drink Starbucks because we got it for free where I worked...& Crispy Cream. But I actually prefurred the flavor of the coffee that came in the vending machine in some of our buildings, or even Tully's. I also cannot forgive Starbucks for replacing my favorite rotissery chicken place with a coffee drive-thru.

Dammit, why did you have to mention cars? I worked for one of the biggest car dealerships in West Seattle before the economy bankrupted us. It was a great job & I was so depressed that I gained 30 pounds. Incidently, Buick was the first to go, those damned things barely sold. I told the boss to switch to Honda, those were selling like hotcackes when the economy went in the shitter, but he sold the company to a moron who clung to Chrysler & Chevy till we choked.

GRAPHICS...Okey, those don't need to look good. Just make a fun game with good voice acting & a nice script. The modding community can take care of the graphics. I remember when I got Octopus Overlord's mod pack for Morrowind, plus a few dozen extras. Unbelievable eyecandy *_*

 

[Acaroid]

I realized something the other day that made me chuckle... You see, there was this article in the paper about the best coffee, correction highest quality coffee, in the bay area and they selected this small 1 shop coffee house across the street from a local college. I have been to this place, and I have to admit it is a cool coffee house, but the coffee; it NEVER tastes the same, never tastes bad, but Never the same. Which brought me to think about something...

Starbucks may not have the absolute best coffee, but it is dependably good.. I have never gotten a shitty cup of coffee at starbucks; I may have gotten some burned milk or some expired shots here and there, but it always tastes pretty good, and occassionally I get a perfect cup of coffee that puts all others to shame. Whereas places such as these, that roast their own beans, the flavor will be this one day, and that another day. Also, the amount of caffeine in this drink will not be the same as the caffeine in the next.

That is something that has gotten lost on the upcoming and in place generations, just like logic, the meaning of quality has gone away. Quality is a good repeatable product that has the same affect everytime. Think about it, when you buy a Honda off the lot you expect certain things out of them. They will not break often, they will run forever, and they look half decent; that is quality workmanship. Whereas Chrysler or Audi, yes they may look great, but they completely miss the meaning of quality, one will run for 100,000 with no problems and the one right next to it will make it 100...

So why do we use flavor as the marker of quality in Coffee? Why do we use graphics as a marker of quality in Games ever? In both cases they should be the icing on the cake, not the real reason for buying the product. But more times than I can count the selling point for this system is its state-of-the-art graphics, or this game pushes the visual boundries, or you have to see it to believe it... I mean really... I don't give a rat's ass about graphics UNLESS there is a good game there too. So please everyone stop talking about graphics and start talking about story and gameplay and originality. And game developers, forget about the graphics until you have nailed the other 3.

I never cared for starbucks and it quickly failed here in south australia. I tend not to go to any coffee places because im sick of having crappy coffee...

We have hudsons in australia and that consistantly makes really good coffee, better than starbucks, also way better than a chain we have here called gloria jeans, gloria jeans is hands down constantly giving me horrible horrible coffee.

Taste should be the no.1 thing coffee is based on... yeah looks, smell etc do play some part and that atmosphere a store brings play another part, but in the end I drink coffee cause it tastes good so that is what i want from it. With video games, I never judge a game by visuals, it is a combination of alot of things that makes a good game. A game may have bad visuals but it can still be an awsome game, but if a coffee tastes crap im tend not to go back to that coffee shop.

 

[thiosk]

Starbucks may not have the absolute best coffee, but it is dependably good.. I have never gotten a shitty cup of coffee at starbucks; I may have gotten some burned milk or some expired shots here and there, but it always tastes pretty good, and occassionally I get a perfect cup of coffee that puts all others to shame.

I disagree STRONGLY. I feel that starbux is essentially burning their coffee by brewing at a far-too high temperature, accelerating the reactions that bitter the flavor of the coffee. Do not want.

If you want TRUE CONSISTENCY, without the ridiculous bitterness, I suggest you zip up to the local DUNKIN DONUTS and try an XXL coffee. That stuff is heaven in a cup, and you don't have to walk up there and say venti or grande, Small. Medium. Large. Extra large. Ginormous.

Quality is a good repeatable product that has the same affect everytime.

By this definition, Budweiser is highest quality beer ever divised. Did you know they freeze budweiser in liquid nitrogen and pull that out every decade or so to make sure the flavor of the beer isn't drifting over time?

So why do we use flavor as the marker of quality in Coffee? Why do we use graphics as a marker of quality in Games ever?

Watch Modern Marvels: Coffee. I dont know how to get it on demand, maybe you can find a copy online, but coffee was declining in popularity for years when Americans' primary motivation for coffee purchase was price, so it tasted worse and worse as it was shipped in cheaper and cheaper. Theres lots of species of beans, and you gotta make sure you get the good stuff. Arabica. Not ROBUSTA, the cheap, horrid swill that was passed off as coffee for nearly a century.

In both cases they should be the icing on the cake, not the real reason for buying the product. But more times than I can count the selling point for this system is its state-of-the-art graphics, or this game pushes the visual boundries, or you have to see it to believe it... I mean really... I don't give a rat's ass about graphics UNLESS there is a good game there too. So please everyone stop talking about graphics and start talking about story and gameplay and originality. And game developers, forget about the graphics until you have nailed the other 3.

somewhere we went from metaphor to graphics. I agree in general with this stuff, but won't plan on meeting you for coffee any time soon.

 

[IDBash]

Actually, food is a science. It's called gastronomy.

Anyhow, I have to say your starbucks example is pretty blah for me. Everytime I go to Starbucks they can never get my orders right. But I see your overall point, instead of sublime quality how about average half decent dependable consistency? I'm with the Armando Pizza theory. If I buy something once that is pretty much a life changing experience, even if it's inconsistent I'm probably gonna go there again and again, on the chance I might experience that perfection again.

My wife is the exact same way... and she always ends up dissappointed. As far as food is a science I was referring to implimentation, 2 tomatos will cook completely different, and it takes a trained eye to make sure it is made right, but I get you are saying.

I used to drink Starbucks because we got it for free where I worked...& Crispy Cream. But I actually prefurred the flavor of the coffee that came in the vending machine in some of our buildings, or even Tully's. I also cannot forgive Starbucks for replacing my favorite rotissery chicken place with a coffee drive-thru.

Dammit, why did you have to mention cars? I worked for one of the biggest car dealerships in West Seattle before the economy bankrupted us. It was a great job & I was so depressed that I gained 30 pounds. Incidently, Buick was the first to go, those damned things barely sold. I told the boss to switch to Honda, those were selling like hotcackes when the economy went in the shitter, but he sold the company to a moron who clung to Chrysler & Chevy till we choked.

GRAPHICS...Okey, those don't need to look good. Just make a fun game with good voice acting & a nice script. The modding community can take care of the graphics. I remember when I got Octopus Overlord's mod pack for Morrowind, plus a few dozen extras. Unbelievable eyecandy *_*

Ok... I am going to say something that few people will understand so most people will think I am an idiot... BUT that aside.. Coffee is an aquired taste, and just like every other acquired taste, people who are used to bad coffee will continue thinking it is the best. Just like say Vodka or Scotch... the best ones are the hardest to drink for someone that has not gotten used to it, and they like xyz crappier choices because they are lighter on the palate. As to Starbucks, it is the best coffee most will probably ever drink whether they know it or not. Most only get the cafe coffee which is designed specifically to go well with milk as their main in store product is lattes. But if you go and get their Komodo Dragon blend and brew it in a french press or metal filter pot, and you will get one of the best coffees in the world. It is the richest full-body coffee I have ever tasted.

Sorry to hear about that, I was on the other end of the equation.... We sold to auto dealers and were Chrysler partners and it hurt, then FCC finished the job by making our software useless.

And yes modders rock the world!

 

[Good morning blues]

I know that I'm straying from the intended topic here, but I need to know: if flavour is not the central quality issue in a cup of coffee, what is?

 

[BlindMessiah94]

znip

znippetty

Ok... I am going to say something that few people will understand so most people will think I am an idiot... BUT that aside.. Coffee is an aquired taste, and just like every other acquired taste, people who are used to bad coffee will continue thinking it is the best. Just like say Vodka or Scotch... the best ones are the hardest to drink for someone that has not gotten used to it, and they like xyz crappier choices because they are lighter on the palate. As to Starbucks, it is the best coffee most will probably ever drink whether they know it or not. Most only get the cafe coffee which is designed specifically to go well with milk as their main in store product is lattes. But if you go and get their Komodo Dragon blend and brew it in a french press or metal filter pot, and you will get one of the best coffees in the world. It is the richest full-body coffee I have ever tasted.

Sorry to hear about that, I was on the other end of the equation.... We sold to auto dealers and were Chrysler partners and it hurt, then FCC finished the job by making our software useless.

And yes modders rock the world!

Yes. This. Great point. I get my coffee from a small family owned place because they put a lot of care into their brewing process and even bean selection. Also, it is always consistent. I don't think one should have to settle for a place like Starbucks when quality and consistency exist. But if people keep accepting mediocrity because "it's good enough" these placing will all get run out of business.
I prefer to support to small businesses.

 

[IDBash]

I know that I'm straying from the intended topic here, but I need to know: if flavour is not the central quality issue in a cup of coffee, what is?

Repeatable flavor, type of beans, region of beans, roasting process, caffeine quantity... whether that flavor be good, bad, or ugly.. the quality of the product is based on repeatability and ingredients used. (obviously bad coffee will not win against good coffee unless the price difference, but that is a whole lot more than my point) For example, there is a shop nearby that has piss-poor coffee.. but it is always the same piss-poor coffee. I know that everytime I go in there I will get the exact same piss, and I do go there from time to time, and I know a lot of people that swear by it as the best coffee in town.

Starbucks may not have the absolute best coffee, but it is dependably good.. I have never gotten a shitty cup of coffee at starbucks; I may have gotten some burned milk or some expired shots here and there, but it always tastes pretty good, and occassionally I get a perfect cup of coffee that puts all others to shame.

I disagree STRONGLY. I feel that starbux is essentially burning their coffee by brewing at a far-too high temperature, accelerating the reactions that bitter the flavor of the coffee. Do not want.

If you want TRUE CONSISTENCY, without the ridiculous bitterness, I suggest you zip up to the local DUNKIN DONUTS and try an XXL coffee. That stuff is heaven in a cup, and you don't have to walk up there and say venti or grande, Small. Medium. Large. Extra large. Ginormous.

Quality is a good repeatable product that has the same affect everytime.

By this definition, Budweiser is highest quality beer ever divised. Did you know they freeze budweiser in liquid nitrogen and pull that out every decade or so to make sure the flavor of the beer isn't drifting over time?

So why do we use flavor as the marker of quality in Coffee? Why do we use graphics as a marker of quality in Games ever?

Watch Modern Marvels: Coffee. I dont know how to get it on demand, maybe you can find a copy online, but coffee was declining in popularity for years when Americans' primary motivation for coffee purchase was price, so it tasted worse and worse as it was shipped in cheaper and cheaper. Theres lots of species of beans, and you gotta make sure you get the good stuff. Arabica. Not ROBUSTA, the cheap, horrid swill that was passed off as coffee for nearly a century.

In both cases they should be the icing on the cake, not the real reason for buying the product. But more times than I can count the selling point for this system is its state-of-the-art graphics, or this game pushes the visual boundries, or you have to see it to believe it... I mean really... I don't give a rat's ass about graphics UNLESS there is a good game there too. So please everyone stop talking about graphics and start talking about story and gameplay and originality. And game developers, forget about the graphics until you have nailed the other 3.

somewhere we went from metaphor to graphics. I agree in general with this stuff, but won't plan on meeting you for coffee any time soon.

You have a lot of things in here.. A lot of them are true even.. yes Sbux does burn their coffee, one of the things I hate about their cafes. That does not change the facts about their coffee... even burnt it tastes better than properly brewed other coffees such as peets who under-roast all their coffee thus missing a lot of the flavors.

Then on the other, it would have to be good product, and beer is a realm I know not much about, and it runs very different from coffee. Coffee is more similar to specifics than beer as beer is a very broad term and covers too many different things, I would compare it to scotch or vodka as they are more similar and take a lot more time to develop palates for.

The graphics was the final and main point... something that has been bothering me for about a month as I have been playing MW2... and it really has gotten under my skin on a lot of things, but their obvious focus on graphics over finishing the gameplay mechanics. The coffee article just made me realize a really good way to put it. Also, I can drink any kind of coffee ever... I grew up on folgers, so, you pick the place..

 

[likalaruku]

I've been drinking coffee since I was 7. I find that I'm actually more fond of the creamers & pumped flavors than the coffee itself...though those chocolate covered coffee beans are really good.

Seattle is the birthplace of Starbucks. There must be 2000 of them in the state. Except for Diva Coffee, I'd say most non-chain-owned coffee places taste better to me. Tully's, Seattle's Best, & Starbucks are in such a furry to buy out as many generic mom'n'pop cafes as they can. They bought out this one really nice place that had over 50 flavors of coffee & didn't even keep the flavors. Starbucks doesn't even have Irish Cream. & Tully's had that nasty orange coffee....

 

[Katana314]

Until the last paragraph I thought this would be something about how yearly COD or Madden games are a good thing...

 

[FranzTyphid]

With Coffee there are exacts that can not change and you will 100% of the time get the same result.

No...
Many things affect how coffee will turn out. Grounds can go stale in a minute, they can be packed to tight or too loose, milk takes on flavours in the jug. Not to mention the amount of water or sunshine the beans received when they were attached to their plant, levels of chemicals & nutrients in the soil, even each bean is different from one another.
I think it's safe to say you will never drink two coffees exactly the same.

Thats true i'm pretty sure me and my friend had thos convorsation when we where in Costa.
I tryed her coffee it was diffrent from mine even though we only ordered a Americanos

 

[SnootyEnglishman]

If the purveyors of the good or service can give me a satisfying result from what they offer then i will keep coming back to support them.