Sexism in the industry

[jesse220]

This isn't a post calling for more/better representation of women, nor is it a defense of said sexism. It is just asking why is this the issue that is most often seen as a genuine concern by actual gamers?

Why is it that sexism in gaming is inherently wrong, while things like violence, glorification of crime and racism (certain nations always being villains, even in games not based on real world conflicts) are not?

Is it that the sexism is subtextual while the other issues are not making them easier to dismiss as 'fantasy'? Is it that there's actually a huge amount of women out there wanting to get into video games but just can't because of the sexism? Is it because the type of gamers who defend the sexism are just so completely stupid that they must be smacked down? Is it that, unlike other issues the sexism is reflective of a real world problem with a lot of gamers?

I myself would love more female protagonists without the giant boobs and so on but I'd also like more protagonists that are asian without necessarily being a king fu master and more games with violence that bother to back it up with a strong story and actual motivation than violence for violence's sake.

Captcha: too bad

 

[Zhukov]

I don't think the issue is receiving so much attention due to its relative importance. Rather, it's just the fad at the moment.

That isn't intended as a dismissal, by the way. It's just that once a discussion like this gets going, it gets a lot of attention from people who want to see what the fuss is about, and then everyone wants to get their bit in, since this is the internet and if you're not participating in a discussion then you kind of don't exist. So it just ends up snowballing from there.

Personally I pay attention to it simply because I find it interesting. Also, I would like to see things improve, although my motives are almost entirely selfish rather than stemming from a desire to help out the womenfolk.

As for those other things you mentioned, the violence discussion has kind of been done to death. Nowadays whenever it comes up it's just met with a collective groan. Perhaps not the most constructive response, but an understandable one.

Maybe after the sexism/feminism stuff dies down, racism will be the next big thing. Better representation for Russians!

 

[Eve Charm]

Eh it's the fad everyone just wants to jump on the bandwagon of.

If you want to sit their and put every game under a magnifying glass which is what people are doing, ya your gonna see some things. If you want to say bad call about chainmail bikini's or bondage outfits and ungodly jiggle physics being only for females in games, Alright go right ahead, but those games are far and inbetween now and the ones that do do it, do it to the male character. But bif your offended and can't play a game because a character has boobs that might be a bit to big, well one you probably don't actually exist and two first world problems.

As much as we'd like to see different things in games like more women more fleshed out characters more races, creed and what not, at the end of the day the problem is shotgun pandering to the widest audience there is. A blank slate character is never going to be as popular and as fleshed out as a specific one ((unless your going strict roleplaying which is something like 2% of people will ever do)) While your 13-35 white male demographic is still by far your Triple A mature game buying audience the games are going to pander to them, that's the hard truth of it.

Even with damsel in distress, are you telling me Women Won't play mario because it's the guy rescuing the girl, because as much as I'd like twilight to not exist isn't that like what that series is all about, sparkley vampire and shirtless werewolf staring and fighting over a frail woman. Even if some won't most will, and you know that's better then something targeted the other way like twilight where you'll get a bit more women but you'll exclude a lot more men that Won't go and see it or play it.

The only full priced retail/console game I ever see women by more then men that isn't something targeted at very little girls is the Sims series. Even taking an game and targetting it direct towards women but making it more well RPG with leveling and stuff or about something cool, Men will buy it more then women! My world my way, Witch's tale, Witch's Wish, Fate series, Hakuoki, and games like it that are RPG or anime sell just as good if not better with Men vs Women as in only a handful of each will buy it and it will probably fail to make a profit.

It's not like it's not getting better, your getting the prequel which is still male characters with very strong focus on strong supporting female characters. Give it more time, or buy as many copies of beyond two souls as you can afford, Female lead story heavy game.

 

[EXos]

-snip

This... All that has to be said...

Just a matter of time before there will be a healthy selection of games for women.
Of course there will still be games that have female character that ooze sexuality.

But it's the same as T.V. don't like what you're seeing change the channel!

 

[Zhukov]

... and two first world problems.

Really?

We're using that as an argument now? Because that could be applied to every single complaint relating to any video game ever made.

"I dislike the depiction of women in this game."
"Eh, first world problems."

"This game is riddled with bugs.
"First. World. Problems."

"It deletes my save file before the final level every time!"
"Hmm... your complaints would seem to indicate that you reside in a wealthy nation."

"This game is a soulless cash-in that mindlessly apes other, better games and is utterly devoid of any identity of its own."
"Say it with me now! First world problems!"

"The controls are terrible!"
"First world problems. Eat shit."

 

[Eve Charm]

Hey the whole industry is entertainment, so basically everything is a first world problem.

Heck all the problems you listed about every atari game had at least one of them lol.

But if you can't enjoy little big planet because it's sack boy instead of sack girl well then... You have an almost meaningless problem with your luxury item you don't have to purchase.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

We actually had a "scuffle" in the Mighty No.9 comments over on kickstarter a few days ago over "sexism". This whole thing has reached ridiculous levels, you just can't go anywhere without it being brought up ad nauseam.

 

[Wraith]

I'm gonna go with the "it's the biggest fad" argument as well. I'm sure we can all agree gaming has its problems-- a good mess of them-- but it seems that not having well-represented females is the biggest one people argue for. I find that people are saying they are tired of 30 something, brown haired, white men, but usually to argue that they want more women in there place. That argument is rarely used for arguing for a diversity in race or age or a for more games that can entertain without the use of violence. With all the problems gaming has, I find it odd to only work on one as an end all be all.

This could be because certain groups with their certain agendas are using gaming as their example to argue against certain social biases, and other groups aren't doing that as much, but hey, that's just me speculating.

 

[Phrozenflame500]

Because Anita Sarkeesian kicked it off with her Tropes vs Women thing.

But yeah, the real problem is that devs have a hard time making money off of things that aren't straight/white/cis/male. Hopefully that will go away as more people enter the industry.

 

[Eve Charm]

Hey the whole industry is entertainment, so basically everything is a first world problem.

Heck all the problems you listed about every atari game had at least one of them lol.

But if you can't enjoy little big planet because it's sack boy instead of sack girl well then... You have an almost meaningless problem with your luxury item you don't have to purchase.

I think you're missing the point; the first world problems meme exists to poke fun of trivial complaints not worthy of any real consideration. By classifying the depiction of women in gaming as a "first world problem" you're essentially saying their depiction is a trivial complaint not worth of any real consideration. Zhukov seemed to be point out how ridiculous this complaint is and how easily it can be expanded into other areas of gaming. In other words, there's no such thing as a valid complaint when it comes to gaming.

Well the points been missed before hand

"If you want to sit their and put every game under a magnifying glass which is what people are doing, ya your gonna see some things. If you want to say bad call about chainmail bikini's or bondage outfits and ungodly jiggle physics being only for females in games, Alright go right ahead, but those games are far and inbetween now and the ones that do do it, do it to the male character. But bif your offended and can't play a game because a character has boobs that might be a bit to big, well one you probably don't actually exist and two first world problems."

Was what I said. What people are trying to say "Classifying the depiction of women in gaming" is basically nitpicking examples and trying to say all gaming does that and that itself is the problem with gaming.


My point is that same logic people are using can be applied just as broadly to pretty much any topic. You think you have complaints about a game and something is wrong with it? well you don't because that's how the game was made and how the developers intended to be nor is it obligated to conform. your games buggy no it was intended to be that way because it was made that way, Bad games aren't bad games, just different art

Anyway TL;DR Every game isn't made for everyone, To complain about some games being sexist to a gender is like complaining GTA discriminates age for not being suitable for 5 years olds at the same time. There are different games for different people, just not as many for non core groups of game buyers.

 

[Quadocky]

What people seem to forget, its not a fad. The 'Social Justice Warriors' (using group terminology, as in people who pay attention to the cause of Social Justice) have been addressing gamers and their persistent awfulness for quite some time. A big source of inspiration for this was that one website Fat, Ugly, or Slutty which basically forwarded a movement of attention toward the issue and why among gamers there seems to be a specific concentration of anti-Feminist attitude and other sorts of awfulness.

Another thing people fail to note is that by addressing the issues of gamers and sexism you also address the wider privilege of generally wealthy straight white males to which the hobby is dominated by. Anita ruffled the feathers of not only gamers but: High Strung Atheists, Anti-Feminists, Youtube 'Intellectuals', Casual Racists, and other sorts who enjoy video games.

Social Justice does not begin and end with video games. Its only one 'front' in the war against the much wider awfulness that makes up certain parts of culture.

There are many problems, this is only but one.

 

[AperioContra]

I don't now, nor ever have thought that this problem is really about the objectified and oversexualized women in games, but rather the lack of women in games that aren't this way. Meaning for the overwhelming amount of women who have hyper-sexualized traits in games, such as large breasts, curvaceous features, pain animations and voice work that make it seem they are having sex, there are relatively few specifically designed women in games that are, well... real people. This is the real problem. I think if women were more well represented in games, this conversation would would delegated to the outer fringes of the conversation, to rear it's ugly head every time a game like Bayonetta, or Dead or Alive comes up, but quickly forgotten about as soon as the next big thing comes.

The problem isn't your Anita Sarkeesians, but rather disturbingly that (and I know I will get backlash for this), they kind of have point. Women are grossly underrepresented in games, and when developers decide to throw a full half of the population a bone and give them a female protagonist, that protagonist tends to reinforce that women are objects to be had, and things to please you. Now this isn't every game, let me make that clear. Chell from Portal, Alyx Vance from Half-Life 2, Jill Valentine, Yuna are all good characters who are more than their sexual traits.

But for every Chell, there is five Ivys, for every Alyx, there's 20 Bloodraynes. This is the problem.

Not let me be even more clear, I don't find oversexualization to be an inherently bad thing. There is an entertainment value, and in the case of say, Bayonetta, it can be used to make an overall point. The problem isn't that oversexualization exists, its more that it exists at a higher rate than anything else. And that's just a shame.

Now why is this the problem over a lot of other big problems and issues in games? Meh-uh, I guess you just have to start somewhere.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

What people seem to forget, its not a fad. The 'Social Justice Warriors' (using group terminology, as in people who pay attention to the cause of Social Justice)

No. I'm going to use a quote from Urban Dictionary because it fits so well.

"A pejorative term for an individual who repeatedly and vehemently engages in arguments on social justice on the Internet, often in a shallow or not well-thought-out way, for the purpose of raising their own personal reputation. A social justice warrior, or SJW, does not necessarily strongly believe all that they say, or even care about the groups they are fighting on behalf of. They typically repeat points from whoever is the most popular blogger or commenter of the moment, hoping that they will "get SJ points" and become popular in return. They are very sure to adopt stances that are "correct" in their social circle."

It is not a term for people interested in social justice, it's for a specific type of person that's interested in it. It's like describing a specific flavor of Doritos.

have been addressing gamers and their persistent awfulness for quite some time.

Indeed. The whole, violent video-games cause violence was the big one several years ago. Predators are always more interested in the young calves because they're easier to attack.

A big source of inspiration for this was that one website Fat, Ugly, or Slutty which basically forwarded a movement of attention toward the issue and why among gamers there seems to be a specific concentration of anti-Feminist attitude and other sorts of awfulness.

First I've heard of that. And I've been debating ever since the "sexism" issue blew up. The source was Sarkeesian's video series, that's when this all became a big deal. However, could you link me to some web pages that show this movement being brought about by FUS?

And please stop trying to trying to paint gamers out to be these horrible awful people. I'm sick of seeing people portray things like that after all the conversations and discussions that have gone on in the threads and comments all across the net over this that show this to not be true. Being anti-femninist is not inherently awful because you have to ask yourself, what flavor of feminist are the people against?

Another thing people fail to note is that by addressing the issues of gamers and sexism you also address the wider privilege of generally wealthy straight white males to which the hobby is dominated by.

Okay, look. I'm also sick to death of this, "wealthy straight white males".

1. Straight: Five freaking percent of the population in America is homosexual. If we split that evenly then that means only about 2.5 percent of males in America are homosexual. Of course the industry is made up of mostly heterosexuals! Most of the PLANET is made up of heterosexuals! Talking about heterosexuals as if they should feel awful for being more targeted is one of the stupidest complaints I've seen come out of this debate.

2. Wealthy: Are you freaking kidding me? How the hell do you target wealthy people? Making the stuff more expensive? How does that target them? Can you point me to anyone that would rather buy something for more even if they could get the same thing for less? I love video games and have a huge collection of them but I'm far from being wealthy and can't buy all the things I want because I have to watch my money. Further, video-games are a hobby. If I need to spend my money on my tuition instead of buying a WiiU, then I'm going to do it because the tuition is more important. If someone else has the ability to buy both, that's not a privilege, that's them having the money to buy it, end of story. Games are not prevented from being bought by people that aren't rich, the people that aren't rich are using their money for more important things.

3. White: How do white people have a "privilege" when it comes to games? What special right or advantage is a white person getting when it comes to games? Do white people get more in game currency when they play an RPG? Do white people get a discount when buying games? Do white people get more content when they play a video-game? Where is the freaking privilege?

4. Male: Given how so many people seem to be arguing that women enjoy all the same games men do to an equal degree, how are men privileged when it comes to video-games? Like with the white aspect. Do men get more content for a game than a woman? Do games cost less for them? Where is the privilege? Where is the special right of male gamers that gives them an edge over women? Where is this law that was passed that gave forth the edict, "Male gamers shall have X better than women."?

 

[McKinsey]

Maybe after the sexism/feminism stuff dies down, racism will be the next big thing. Better representation for Russians!

The Russians are not a race, bro. They are Caucasians, like you and I. They are represented adequately.
Other than that, I agree with you. It's a fad, and it will go away soon enough.

 

[Hover Hand Mode]

Because Anita Sarkeesian kicked it off with her Tropes vs Women thing.

But yeah, the real problem is that devs have a hard time making money off of things that aren't straight/white/cis/male. Hopefully that will go away as more people enter the industry.

No, the vile f*ckwits who sent her rape/death threats for daring to come up with 'tropes vs women' kicked it off a good deal more.

I would say this is true. I liked her videos before the internet blew up with rage over her. Even so, I think I would have forgotten all about her if not for the fact that she's treated like Satan incarnate for having inoffensive opinions about things people like. The reactions to Anita made me realize that the problems with the industry stem very much from the fanbase that they are trying to please. A fanbase that will harass/stalk/threaten a woman on the internet for daring to have opinions counter to their own.