Sexism, Racism and Gay Oppression in Games is a GOOD Thing

[Abomination]

Boy, that title probably got your attention.

Let me clarify:
Video games offer an artistic or educational format otherwise absent from any other mainstream media - interactivity. The ability to inhabit someone else's shoes and perform tasks as that individual would or the ability to make decisions that impact those individuals and observe their reactions.

Sexism, racism, homosexual oppression and, religious persecution is tame in most of the English speaking (and most of the ?Western?) world by comparison than it used to be in the past or elsewhere today. No matter how many documentaries one watches or accounts one reads the sheer immersive abilities of video games can trump those experiences. A game where an individual gets to witness, react to, prevent, or even perpetrate that discrimination is a sure fire way of coming to as true an understanding as possible without needing to be directly subjected to the act.

Role playing games have attempted to delve into these fields with unfortunate public backlash. From the sexual assault on Lara Croft or the ?slut shaming? quest in Skyrim gaining journalistic or even public scorn in the sexism realm. I have not played Heavy Rain but I have heard there is a certain scene involving the female protagonist ?seducing? a disgusting lump of a man also tackling the sexism issue.

Django Unchained has come under fire from some areas due to mention of racism ? which is an absurd thing in the first place due to the entire film being based on the subjugation and slavery of Africans. It appears even mentioning something horrible that happened in history is taboo, even if the sole purpose of the media is to decry the act and encourage vengeance against it.

I remember playing Mount and Blade: Warband and appreciating that as a female you were limited in your ability to progress socially. Men could be granted titles fairly easily for their prowess in battle or simply by befriending someone powerful enough to award said title. Women had to either marry someone with a title or take it by force.

These aspects of games should not be shied away from - they need to be explored as they can assist the individual in understanding how limiting and oppressive persecution can be to a person. Video games allow the player to be truly enveloped by an alien setting where such social abominations are far more prevalent so they can truly understand what they mean, how they affect others and even what motivates one to perform such things.

If this medium truly wants to be considered ?mature? and no longer ?just for kids? then developers need to be willing to tackle and embrace these social atrocities (in the correct setting, of course) and not handle them with kids? gloves ? just like literature or film has been able to do long before video games were even considered art. And we, the consumers and even gaming press need to encourage this course into far more challenging waters.

 

[The-Traveling-Bard]

So you think players should be able to be as sexist and as racist as they like, in the name of role-play?

Why I do? I play D&D, and I roleplay as a racist Elf who hates humans for their ignorant behavior.
There's nothing wrong with it. It's role playing for a reason, it's make believe, not real.
I play as a sexist knight in D&D as well. That's my character.

Am I like this in person? No! It's a *Video game* it's not *real*, and it's not going to *teach anyone* to become sexist/racist.

Sexism, Racism, and all that good stuff happens in the *real life*, and if a game is going to have a setting real setting these things will take place.

Why is it okay for books to like 50 shades of grey, and the girl with the dragon tattoo to have rape/bdsm/sexist/racism themes to it, but not games? I am 19 years old, and almost 20. By legal concerns I am an adult, and I want to be treated as such.

Besides any kid can go out, and buy a book/movie. There's no law against that as far as I know (you can correct me if I wrong) A 13 year old kid can buy 50 shades of grey, and chances are the cashier isn't going to know what it is.

But a little kid can not buy a 16+ 17+ game title. So what's the big deal?

It's why I enjoy D&D board game over all games, because it can be the most realistic settings with serious problems.
One of the things I loved about the Witcher 2, because it was very adult themed.

 

[Abomination]

So you think players should be able to be as sexist and as racist as they like, in the name of role-play?

And see the effect of those actions, yes. We already have the idea of morality in games, why should it only be relegated to burning down orphanages or wholesale slaughter of a city's inhabitants? Why is THAT acceptable but calling a person of certain ethnical decent a derogatory slur or quashing a woman's bid for equality due to the apparatus between her legs? Killing = allowed, being discriminatory = not allowed. That is an absurd basis for morality.

Better yet, have your character subjected to those abuses. Play a female in a game and notice how certain characters treat you very poorly when compared to playing a male. Even subtle things like character race could result in lower pay for the same act or even denial of service from particular establishments.

The medium is missing out on an incredible amount of points of conflict or story arcs due to being queasy about tacking mature topics.

Edit:

One of the things I loved about the Witcher 2, because it was very adult themed.

The way that racism against dwarves and elves was tackled in the Witcher series was brilliant. Even Geralt suffered scorn for being a "mutant". Listing to a discussion in the Witcher 2 about what they thought Witchers ate was amusing. Same with the stag party in Mass Effect 2 as they discuss the anatomy of the Asari stripper/dancer on the table right in front of them.

Yes it has uncomfortable undertones but why hide them? Give the player ways of reacting to those situations. Even offer the ability to go social vigilante on the issue - with serious social backlash against your character for daring to oppose the status quo.

 

[BreakfastMan]

Thing is, you aren't really talking about sexist, racist, or homophobic themes. You are talking about dealing with the issues that come from such topics through games. Jim was talking about the former, not the later. It is the difference between a blatantly racist film, such as The Birth of a Nation, and films that deal with racism, like the aforementioned Django Unchained or Blazing Saddles. :\

 

[Abomination]

Thing is, you aren't really talking about sexist, racist, or homophobic themes. You are talking about dealing with the issues that come from such topics through games. Jim was talking about the former, not the later. It is the difference between a blatantly racist film, such as The Birth of a Nation, and films that deal with racism, like the aforementioned Django Unchained or Blazing Saddles. :\

You can't talk about the issues without having the theme present in the first place. At times you don't even need to have resolution to the issues, just have the character subjected to them.

Often times the sexism or racism in games is decried because a certain character behaves in a certain way. The villan happens to be homosexual so the piece MUST be homophobic, the hordes of enemies stem from a particular racial demographic therefore the piece MUST be racist, there is a damsel in distress so it MUST be sexist. Even though in all those cases the group the individuals belong to is either because of happenstance or is logically explained as being so. A staggering majority of decried "isms" in games have been brought to attention by people who were simply looking for them.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

You can't talk about the issues without having the theme present in the first place. At times you don't even need to have resolution to the issues, just have the character subjected to them.

This is essentially what the discussion about Arkham City boiled down to, the feeling that the developers had went out of their way to make as many of the thugs as possible constantly call Catwoman a ***** or talk about how much they wanted to "see what was under that suit"/"make her purr" (talking about rape in precise terms is apparently not PG-13 friendly). At no point did the game address this, at no point was there a scene or character that confronted the thugs sexism or showed the results of it (such as a scene with an innocent woman backed into an alley). It simply was there, for no proper reason.

See, I get what you are saying but I tend to disagree. Just throwing in a "gay hater" or a misogynist "because it is characterization" is not only kind of inane, it is also counter-productive in terms of storytelling. These are hard topics and for many of us they hit close to home, I don't need to be reminded that as a lesbian woman I am quite frequently subjected to hateful treatment in real life when I am playing a game to have some fun. AND if I am to be reminded, I'd like for the developers to at least handle the matter in a sensitive fashion and taking their time to make a statement instead of just going "racist enemies are soooo cool".

It is essentially what makes movies like Straw Dogs, Crash and Irreversible powerful, they all handle sensitive issues but they also do it with a delicate touch and with a clear sense of what message they are delivering. They didn't just include casual racism or graphic rape because "hey, it is kind of like real life".

 

[Abomination]

The thing about Batman though is you get to beat the living snot out of those thugs in response. They are clearly identified as "bad men" by their affiliations, attitudes, and actions. Their behavior is that of an individual who is at the bottom rung of the worst ladder of society. It does serve a reason, it is an indication of their depth of depravity.

It is not about making an opponent "cool" it is about making the universe established. Of course the situations should be handled with some tact and not just by making a game called "****** Murder Simulator - Triple K Edition" or something pathetic like that. In a narration every aspect of a character IS important towards setting. Establishing what attitude the universe has towards particular groups goes a long way as to understanding how its society operates. Certainly it will be unpleasant but the medium can't shy away from such things just because they're a sore point for some people - murder isn't a sore point?

It is never about casual inclusion, I hope we can distinguish between stupid crap like Manhunt and intelligent immersion like The Witcher.

 

[OneOfTheMichael's]

So basically it's good when applied to games for realism, and still bad in reality. But usually only in roleplaying games.
In response to fallout 3 racism: Stop ghoul oppresion! ghouls are people too, only a lot corps-ier.

 

[Strazdas]

So i read your post, then read it again, and still dont understand why you made it.

 

[Legion]

The mistake a lot of people seem to make is not being able to tell the difference between exploring a controversial subject, and condoning it.

Games such as Skyrim have racism (Some Nords attitude towards other races), but the game does not say it's a good thing, and it does not encourage it. For most people this is okay, it is a part of the lore and it adds depth to the world showing different perspectives.

Oddly some people cannot see the difference between this and a game itself being racist, that's the issue people tend to have. Jim Sterling seemed to imply that the sexism in Skyrim was sexist as in "The developers showed they have sexist attitudes in creating this part of the game" rather than "The developers explored the subject of sexism by creating unpleasant characters who try to "slut shame" a woman."

The former attitude is what people take issue with.

So you think players should be able to be as sexist and as racist as they like, in the name of role-play?

It's acceptable to role-play sociopathic, and psycopathic murderers, so how is it different?

That's not to say I agree with the idea of it being okay to be sexist, racist or homophobic in this setting, I am just yet to see anybody give a reasonable explanation as to why some bad things are allowed to be done/seen in games, while others are not.

Gaming is constantly defended against people saying it condones or encourages violence in real life, but if it is seen to be racist, sexist or homophobic it's apparently condoning these beliefs.

It comes across as incredibly hypocritical to me.

 

[OpticalJunction]

I don't know, allowing certain attitudes in fiction has the potential to normalize them in real life. Unless you could be sure there would be no real world consequences, I think it would be irresponsible to perpetuate negative stereotypes in a video game.

 

[Batou667]

So you think players should be able to be as sexist and as racist as they like, in the name of role-play?

I think if the context was suitable and the eventual consequences showed your actions in a negative light, then that would be fine.

I think games should be allowed to tackle big subjects. The fact that they have a pretty terrible track record so far shouldn't put off future devs from trying.

 

[Entitled]

Yes, but there is a huge difference between a game being racist, and racism happening in a game.

It's one thing when certain races are oppressed in the narrative of the Elder Scrolls universe, and it's something entirely different when redguard characters are starting the game with an intelligence penalty.

It's one thing when your story happens to take place in an universe where women are oppressed, and another when your entire authorial bibliography is centered around whiny damsel in distress characters being rescued by manly men, as if that would be the natural way of life.

It's one thing when you write a plot where two douchebag characters are treating "gay" as an insult, and another when whole a comedy scene is set in a way that a character being revealed as gay is set up as the gag, as if being gay would be something inherehtly shameful.

 

[The_Echo]

Now, don't come kill me in my sleep for this, but...

I kind of feel like the sexism, racism and everything else people are making a big fuss about in gaming... aren't actually there. I think a lot of people are just looking for it.

Y'know? A lot of people cry sexism, but don't give examples. And when things are called sexist, it seems like an overreaction. To me, at least (for example, this recent Dead Island: Riptide thing). The last time I remember racism being a big deal in gaming was Resident Evil 5 for having all African zombies. But that was... it was based in Africa. So why anyone thought it was racist is beyond me.

Maybe I'm missing very glaring and unforgivable incidents. I dunno. Just seems like people are making mountains of molehills to me.

 

[DoPo]

So you think players should be able to be as sexist and as racist as they like, in the name of role-play?

Why I do? I play D&D, and I roleplay as a racist Elf who hates humans for their ignorant behavior.

And tell me, how many people are affected by your performance? How many can see it and say "Yeah, that's actually the right attitude". How many do you personally try to convince that this is the right attitude (even subconsciously)? Or are you making an analogy that doesn't make sense here? Because the issue about racism (and others) in games isn't merely "it exists" it is because they are shown in a way to reinforce those ideas. Imagine a game where you play as a member of the KKK and you shoot black people while cracking racist jokes. Now, I am reasonably sure you can see the difference between this and playing a racist character in a game where everybody knows it's for the sake of the play.

Thing is, you aren't really talking about sexist, racist, or homophobic themes. You are talking about dealing with the issues that come from such topics through games. Jim was talking about the former, not the later.

And coincidentally, Jim was talking about this exact reaction
Somebody: ism...
Gamers: NO! LEAVE IT ALONE!

Ah, a thread that so perfectly illustrates his point. I'm almost hoping it's made for that reason.

 

[Abomination]

Yes, but there is a huge difference between a game being racist, and racism happening in a game.

It's one thing when certain races are oppressed in the narrative of the Elder Scrolls universe, and it's something entirely different when redguard characters are starting the game with an intelligence penalty.

It's one thing when your story happens to take place in an universe where women are oppressed, and another when your entire authorial bibliography is centered around whiny damsel in distress characters being rescued by manly men, as if that would be the natural way of life.

It's one thing when you write a plot where two douchebag characters are treating "gay" as an insult, and another when whole a comedy scene is set in a way that a character being revealed as gay is set up as the gag, as if being gay would be something inherehtly shameful.

You're on to it.

To play devil's advocate I think the Reguard intelligence penalty was to reflect how their society valued martial prowess over magic and so individuals of that race would not be as adaptable to the Art. Of course they should have just given them a magicka penalty rather than say "This race is more stupid than the other races".

The other two examples I can not excuse the damsel in distress or the "being gay is SO funny" setups.

I kind of feel like the sexism, racism and everything else people are making a big fuss about in gaming... aren't actually there. I think a lot of people are just looking for it.

Y'know? A lot of people cry sexism, but don't give examples. And when things are called sexist, it seems like an overreaction. To me, at least (for example, this recent Dead Island: Riptide thing). The last time I remember racism being a big deal in gaming was Resident Evil 5 for having all African zombies. But that was... it was based in Africa. So why anyone thought it was racist is beyond me.

Maybe I'm missing very glaring and unforgivable incidents. I dunno. Just seems like people are making mountains of molehills to me.

This, I have observed, is also very much the case.

Nuns in latex lugging around automatic weapons as a thematic hit-squad - sexism! Or maybe it's just a fun/cool psychotic bunch of adversaries for 47 to face.

Attacking said nuns promotes violence against women! So, if they were men it would be okay? They WERE trying to kill him first.

Those who look for it and see it everywhere tend to over-analyse things. With one breath they demand more female involvement in games and with the second contrive any reason why every female in a violent video game is a poster child for pro-violence against women.

 

[Padwolf]

Hmm it seems to come down to the way the game handles it. It's good that these things are shown in games, it's good that games try to tackle them, we can't pretend they don't exist. Developers shouldn't stop trying.

Now, don't come kill me in my sleep for this, but...

I kind of feel like the sexism, racism and everything else people are making a big fuss about in gaming... aren't actually there. I think a lot of people are just looking for it.

Y'know? A lot of people cry sexism, but don't give examples. And when things are called sexist, it seems like an overreaction. To me, at least (for example, this recent Dead Island: Riptide thing). The last time I remember racism being a big deal in gaming was Resident Evil 5 for having all African zombies. But that was... it was based in Africa. So why anyone thought it was racist is beyond me.

Maybe I'm missing very glaring and unforgivable incidents. I dunno. Just seems like people are making mountains of molehills to me.

Have no fear good sir, I shan't be coming to kill you in your sleep, but I shall come to give you a friendly hug! I think the same way. It does seem like an overreaction some of the time and it does seem like people look for it where it isn't.

 

[The-Traveling-Bard]

So you think players should be able to be as sexist and as racist as they like, in the name of role-play?

Why I do? I play D&D, and I roleplay as a racist Elf who hates humans for their ignorant behavior.

And tell me, how many people are affected by your performance? How many can see it and say "Yeah, that's actually the right attitude". How many do you personally try to convince that this is the right attitude (even subconsciously)? Or are you making an analogy that doesn't make sense here? Because the issue about racism (and others) in games isn't merely "it exists" it is because they are shown in a way to reinforce those ideas. Imagine a game where you play as a member of the KKK and you shoot black people while cracking racist jokes. Now, I am reasonably sure you can see the difference between this and playing a racist character in a game where everybody knows it's for the sake of the play.

Thing is, you aren't really talking about sexist, racist, or homophobic themes. You are talking about dealing with the issues that come from such topics through games. Jim was talking about the former, not the later.

And coincidentally, Jim was talking about this exact reaction
Somebody: ism...
Gamers: NO! LEAVE IT ALONE!

Ah, a thread that so perfectly illustrates his point. I'm almost hoping it's made for that reason.

Okay, I get what you are saying, but the thing is, video games aren't going to really reinforce anything. If someone plays a game who is racist that has racist elements. He isn't going to change. If a person who isn't racist plays a game that has racist themes isn't going to turn out to be racist.

Just because I see Lara Croft almost getting raped doesn't mean I am going to go out, and start trying to rape other girls. People don't learn behaviors from video games unless they're under the age. I can see how video games can affect 7-8 even 12-13 year olds into thinking being racist is cool, but as for a game for a mature audience. I would hope to think that all of us have already decided whether or not to be a total prick, or not be a total prick.

I hope.

And honestly stop being too hard. I don't think the OP wants those types of games. He isn't asking for a KKK style game, and shoot up all the black people so don't go too far right, or too far left.

If I play a medieval game in the time of kings, and knights. I'm sorry, girls shouldn't even be treated as equals, and man who aren't noble shouldn't know how to read. Damn right I want the setting to get everything correct. That's how it was back in those times.

Why is it tv shows/books like Game Of Thrones are okay to allow rape scenes, racism, murdering of babies, etc, etc in it, but a video game?

King Joffrey gives an order to kill of his father bastard children, all of them. Even the babies.
Sansa almost gets raped by 3 man before The Hound saves her, and kills them.


Why is this acceptable in books, and movies, but not video games?

I want equal rights.

Does anyone re-play the MW2 mission when you gun down civilize at an airport over, and over to get their sick fantasy thrill? Probably, because there's always that chance, but most likely no. They did it like every part of the mission, and moved on.

Again it's why I love Spec Ops the line, and The Witcher 2. It made me feel like an adult,because I actually did something horrible, and I had to pay for the consequence.

Video games aren't different from books, or tv shows, or movies.
It's a form of media, and story telling.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

God damn, and I just spent like 15 minutes posting on Jim's video.

My opinion is games can and do portray without condoning. Being able to interact with issues is fine. Skyrim's world is sexist and racist and you can see that and in some cases intervene. There is a VAST difference between raising an issue through its protrayal in a game and actually intending non-game-related sexism or racism. For it to be sexist or racist, I think it has to be first inconsistent with the game world. If all the bad guys are black and you're in central Africa, I'm fine with it. If it's an entirely black extremist group or something, I'm fine with it. If it's random people and the game is set in Sweden and they're all black, there's a problem. If women are dressed in next to nothing on the front lines of a gunfight and there's no reason that makes them more protected, there's a problem. If it's the red light district and women are dressed in next to nothing, it's consistent. If it's an army setting or an archaic society, lack of homosexuality is completely ok. Similarly, if a character is unlikely to flaunt their sexuality, and that's the reason there are no homosexuals in the game, that's ok. If there is a lack of homosexuality in a modern society, that's on the border but I'm having trouble thinking of a game setting wherein homosexuality would be obvious if it were present seeing as people can keep it to themselves if they want, there's a problem. Also, if any character can become homosexual regardless of personal views or homosexuality is over-represented for that game world, there's a problem. That's how my views work.