Sexist games without the boobs?

[Dead_Man]

OK, let me explain this as I can see the confused expression on your face (don't ask me how). I was talking about video games with a friend of a friend of mine, and we got to talking about Mass Effect. Best game in my opinion, but that's beside the point. She had stated that the game was a sexist piece of sh*t game, and Bioware was an anti-woman company. She said that when you pick you partners to go with you, that all the women only specialized in one field (biotic, soldier, tech) and that the men had multiple specializations. Technically, this is true, but she had come to the conclusion that Bioware were trying to say that women were simple minded and coundn't do more than one thing at a time. No amount of arguing with her that the female characters were more powerful at thier fields than male were with thier mixed fields could convince her.

While I did take her arguement with as much as a grain of salt, it did get me thinking. Feminist organizations often attack games with supposed overly sexual appearance of certain games, but it never seem to go any farther than just the looks. I don't believe I've ever heard about women rights groups protesting about a game that didn't have women with large boobs or skimpy outfits. What I ask is there the possiblity of sexism in games that don't involve the overly sexual appearance of women?

 

[Shadowstar38]

Well, no. Generally if they made sure to fix that expect of the game they fixed anything else that could be sexist. In Mass Effect's case, like you said the one specialization made the females more powerful, so there isnt even a problem their.

 

[Dags90]

I don't believe I've ever heard about women rights groups protesting about a game that didn't have women with large boobs or skimpy outfits. What I ask is there the possiblity of sexism in games that don't involve the overly sexual appearance of women?

You must not have heard all of the feminist criticism of games that don't have women with large boobs or skimpy outfits simply because they don't have any women in them. And the overall lacking of female PCs among games, especially when not merely given as an "option". Also, Metroid: Other M. Just Metroid: Other M.

Really, where have you been?

Also, I think it would help your discussion point if you removed the anecdote, it's already derailing the thread.

 

[LetalisK]

Have no fear, she is fucking nuts. You should have pointed at MaleShep and Jacob said "You're right, they are sexist. They think men should be this boring."

 

[ReinWeisserRitter]

There are just as many people willing to claim that characters that don't specialize are useless. I'm not one of them, but I didn't find Mass Effect sexist regardless. Boring, ham-fisted, badly designed, and frustrating, yeah, but not sexist. Hell, the most stereotypically male role in the game is played by a female party member, and even then she's not offensively masculine, or even offensively feminine. If the game got one thing right, it was that the characters were believable. Not necessarily likable, but believable.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

OK, let me explain this as I can see the confused expression on your face (don't ask me how). I was talking about video games with a friend of a friend of mine, and we got to talking about Mass Effect. Best game in my opinion, but that's beside the point. She had stated that the game was a sexist piece of sh*t game, and Bioware was an anti-woman company. She said that when you pick you partners to go with you, that all the women only specialized in one field (biotic, soldier, tech) and that the men had multiple specializations. Technically, this is true, but she had come to the conclusion that Bioware were trying to say that women were simple minded and coundn't do more than one thing at a time. No amount of arguing with her that the female characters were more powerful at thier fields than male were with thier mixed fields could convince her.

While I did take her arguement with as much as a grain of salt, it did get me thinking. Feminist organizations often attack games with supposed overly sexual appearance of certain games, but it never seem to go any farther than just the looks. I don't believe I've ever heard about women rights groups protesting about a game that didn't have women with large boobs or skimpy outfits. What I ask is there the possiblity of sexism in games that don't involve the overly sexual appearance of women?

Argue, tooth and nail, that the fact men can specialise in two but are worse means men are smarter than women and the game is inherently sexist because men are ok at a few things and women are masters of one or two, thus showing how inept men are. Stick to your guns and make sure you sound legitimately idignant.

Its fine to be angry of sexism of a non sexualised character if shes weak or obviously treated in a dorrogitory manor by the characters and it ISNT pointed out as an issue. Or dependant for no apparent reason simply for the fact she is female.

I think alyx vance is the best woman in videogame history. The entire LoL roster tends to be awesome strong women. Its fine for a woman to wear a skimpy outfit. Its not fine for ALL the women in a game to wear skimpy outfits. Or like 80% of them, just for sex appeal. Bayonetta is a good example. She dresses sexily, but because SHE wants to, because she likes how she looks and shes proud. Thats fine. And women who get angry because other women LIKE the way they look and WANT to show it off because they are proud need to back off and let them be who they want to be. It isnt "hurting the womans cause" you can dress however you want and not be a sex object. What makes you a sex object is if you act like one.

 

[Starke]

While I did take her arguement with as much as a grain of salt, it did get me thinking. Feminist organizations often attack games with supposed overly sexual appearance of certain games, but it never seem to go any farther than just the looks. I don't believe I've ever heard about women rights groups protesting about a game that didn't have women with large boobs or skimpy outfits. What I ask is there the possiblity of sexism in games that don't involve the overly sexual appearance of women?

Yeah, and ironically, Mass Effect is a pretty good example. She's locked in on a superficial aspect, but it's there at deeper levels.

Honestly, though, I don't think we'll get a more solid illustration of the thinking at Bioware than Drew Karpyshyn's treatment of the Exile from KOTOR2. He reduces her from quite possibly one of the most badass Jedi in the EU to a sniveling little thing that lives and breathes on Revan whim, and haunts him to keep him safe, or alleviate his suffering.

He pulled a similar stunt with Bastilla reducing her to a stay at home waif watching TV and waiting for her marvelous husband Revan to return home.

The lead writer for Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2, and the Old Republic, ladies and gentlemen.

EDIT: In a non-sequitor, she's also got a mechanical point. All of the player accessable hybrid classes in Mass Effect have to give something up for their versatility. This isn't the case for the NPCs. Garrius gets the Assault Rifle (Combat only for players), while Wrex gets the Assault Rifle AND Heavy Armor (both the combat advantages) along with an innate class that's actually better than Soldier, and he end ends up being something akin to a straight soldier WITH substantial biotic powers.

I'm not sure about Kaiden "I can do stuff too" Alenko, since I never dragged him along, but my recollection is he is packing the tech exclusive neural blast, and the biotic exclusive, no clue what that one is...

EDIT 2: I forgot that Kaiden and Ashley both actually used player accessible classes. So, he does suck as much as I was remembering.

EDIT 3: Turns out, I also forgot that both Tali and Liara actually lose abilities that the player equivalent classes posses. Liara loses any weapon (pistol) or armor boosts, and Tali looses Medicine in exchange for shotguns.

 

[Starke]

Have no fear, she is fucking nuts. You should have pointed at MaleShep and Jacob said "You're right, they are sexist. They think men should be this boring."

Hillariously, Broshep seems to be some idealized version of Karpyshyn. Seriously, dig up a photo of the guy. So, when he tries to write himself, he's dull as smeared shit. Give that to Jennifer Hale and you get something halfway decent. Go figure. :\

EDIT: Jacob just creeps me the hell out. It's the teeth, I think. But, honestly, with Broshep, Jacob and Miranda in the party, there isn't enough personality spread between them to create a plausible cameo character.

 

[AstylahAthrys]

Speaking as a woman, I can honestly say I have no idea what the hell she is talking about. Mass Effect has some pretty strong, awesome female characters and I don't see an ounce of sexism in their games, especially since FemShep is so much better than BroShep (in my opinion.)

Don't worry, she's just crazy.