Shigeru Miyamoto feels like a detriment sometimes

[Elvis Starburst]

Don't get me wrong, the guys does some amazing work and has helped bring together Nintendo's biggest properties, and even some lesser known hits as well. And for what he's done for the company, it's beyond amazing. I commend him for a lot of what he's done. But sometimes it feels like he's more detrimental to creativity and potential success than one may think. Now, it could be just because he's been a primary face in interviews it makes him look worse in my eyes. But there are some examples...

For one, he's been on record saying that they don't want to do a new F-Zero because of something about needing a new/better "controller interface" to make it happen... Why? What's wrong with a basic controller? People are clamoring for it, there IS demand... so why not?
On that note, instead of bringing Star Fox back with a simple revamp and a new title, we get motion controls and dual-screen gameplay. Granted, I really like the motion controls for aiming and I have a lot of fun with the game. I see what Miyamoto went for. But of course, we gotta push the hardware how he wants, so no options for normal controls is allowed. Also means a port for the Switch is probably a dead concept, so I have to keep my WiiU around if I ever wanted to play it again.
Another one is what happened to Paper Mario. A single survey hosted on Nintendo's site seemed to deem the entire fate of the series alongside some decisions he made, and now it's just been dropped down to basic world designs you come to expect, less plot and nothing but Toads for characters, cause apparently interesting NPCs isn't what people want, and Bowser being the bad guy like always.

I know Nintendo always likes to do something amazing with its properties, and doesn't often make a sequel for the sake of making one to top the other. They want the game to stand out for other reasons. And I have no doubt it's an idea he either helped create, or helps perpetuate. But sometimes I wish we'd just see Nintendo do things a little more normal, and see Miyamoto embrace simpler ideas to make a game great, without having to necessarily be unique.

I'm sure there's more to this and it's not just him, but being the figurehead that he is, one of the faces of Nintendo's, one can't help but associate him with a lot of big decisions. At least for the ones of the IPs he's directly involved in

 

[Yoshi178]

He doesn't even do much these days though. It's mostly new guys on the scene now with Iwata gone, Shibata no longer head of NOE and Reggie not going to be head of NOA anymore. Nintendos been changing quite alot recently

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

The only thing I have against Miyamoto is his noted dislike for Donkey Kong Country and 3D in general. I'm willing to bet DK's shitty rendering in the Mini SNES is a big fuck you from him.

I also think Miyamoto suffers from the Matt Groening effect of people giving him way more credit than he deserves for his "work". He hasn't actually directed anything in 20 years. He's spent the bulk of his career as "supervisor", whatever that means. I'm sure he gets a say in design (I like this, loose that) but I don't think he has as much control as people assume he does.

 

[Hades]

The only thing I have against Miyamoto is his noted dislike for Donkey Kong Country and 3D in general. I'm willing to bet DK's shitty rendering in the Mini SNES is a big fuck you from him.

I also think Miyamoto suffers from the Matt Groening effect of people giving him way more credit than he deserves for his "work". He hasn't actually directed anything in 20 years. He's spent the bulk of his career as "supervisor", whatever that means. I'm sure he gets a say in design (I like this, loose that) but I don't think he has as much control as people assume he does.

I think the cultural norms of Japan give Miyamoto a lot of control. Even if he's just a supervisor he has such a high status that its probably very daunting to say no to him even if he phrases things as suggestions.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

The only thing I have against Miyamoto is his noted dislike for Donkey Kong Country and 3D in general. I'm willing to bet DK's shitty rendering in the Mini SNES is a big fuck you from him.

I also think Miyamoto suffers from the Matt Groening effect of people giving him way more credit than he deserves for his "work". He hasn't actually directed anything in 20 years. He's spent the bulk of his career as "supervisor", whatever that means. I'm sure he gets a say in design (I like this, loose that) but I don't think he has as much control as people assume he does.

I think the cultural norms of Japan give Miyamoto a lot of control. Even if he's just a supervisor he has such a high status that its probably very daunting to say no to him even if he phrases things as suggestions.

Possibly, but to give another Japanese example, how much control does Suda51 have in all those "Suda51 games" he produces?

 

[BrawlMan]

The only thing I have against Miyamoto is his noted dislike for Donkey Kong Country and 3D in general. I'm willing to bet DK's shitty rendering in the Mini SNES is a big fuck you from him.

I also think Miyamoto suffers from the Matt Groening effect of people giving him way more credit than he deserves for his "work". He hasn't actually directed anything in 20 years. He's spent the bulk of his career as "supervisor", whatever that means. I'm sure he gets a say in design (I like this, loose that) but I don't think he has as much control as people assume he does.

I think the cultural norms of Japan give Miyamoto a lot of control. Even if he's just a supervisor he has such a high status that its probably very daunting to say no to him even if he phrases things as suggestions.

Possibly, but to give another Japanese example, how much control does Suda51 have in all those "Suda51 games" he produces?

Killer 7, No More Heroes, and all of his older works - He got all of the control.

No More Heroes 2 - Writer only.

Shadows of the Damned - A collaboration that was bastardized by EA. I still like it, but it's a far cry from his original concept.

Lollipop Chainsaw - None, just there to promote the game.

Killer Is Dead - Nearly the same, but he and three other writers wrote the story.

Travis Strikes Again - He's back to his directorial debut.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

The only thing I have against Miyamoto is his noted dislike for Donkey Kong Country and 3D in general. I'm willing to bet DK's shitty rendering in the Mini SNES is a big fuck you from him.

I also think Miyamoto suffers from the Matt Groening effect of people giving him way more credit than he deserves for his "work". He hasn't actually directed anything in 20 years. He's spent the bulk of his career as "supervisor", whatever that means. I'm sure he gets a say in design (I like this, loose that) but I don't think he has as much control as people assume he does.

I think the cultural norms of Japan give Miyamoto a lot of control. Even if he's just a supervisor he has such a high status that its probably very daunting to say no to him even if he phrases things as suggestions.

Possibly, but to give another Japanese example, how much control does Suda51 have in all those "Suda51 games" he produces?

Killer 7, No More Heroes, and all of his older works - He got all of the control.

No More Heroes 2 - Writer only.

Shadows of the Damned - A collaboration that was bastardized by EA. I still like it, but it's a far cry from his original concept.

Lollipop Chainsaw - None, just there to promote the game.

Killer Is Dead - Nearly the same, but he and three other writers wrote the story.

Travis Strikes Again - He's back to his directorial debut.

Ok, so he's spent the last 12 years not directing and not being in complete control, aping his style in token exec roles, right?

 

[BrawlMan]

The only thing I have against Miyamoto is his noted dislike for Donkey Kong Country and 3D in general. I'm willing to bet DK's shitty rendering in the Mini SNES is a big fuck you from him.

I also think Miyamoto suffers from the Matt Groening effect of people giving him way more credit than he deserves for his "work". He hasn't actually directed anything in 20 years. He's spent the bulk of his career as "supervisor", whatever that means. I'm sure he gets a say in design (I like this, loose that) but I don't think he has as much control as people assume he does.

I think the cultural norms of Japan give Miyamoto a lot of control. Even if he's just a supervisor he has such a high status that its probably very daunting to say no to him even if he phrases things as suggestions.

Possibly, but to give another Japanese example, how much control does Suda51 have in all those "Suda51 games" he produces?

Killer 7, No More Heroes, and all of his older works - He got all of the control.

No More Heroes 2 - Writer only.

Shadows of the Damned - A collaboration that was bastardized by EA. I still like it, but it's a far cry from his original concept.

Lollipop Chainsaw - None, just there to promote the game.

Killer Is Dead - Nearly the same, but he and three other writers wrote the story.

Travis Strikes Again - He's back to his directorial debut.

Ok, so he's spent the last 12 years not directing and not being in complete control, aping his style in token exec roles, right?

Yep. Let It Die he had nothing to do with either outside of some promotion. That said, I was pissed when they abandoned Lily Bergamo for some free-to-play Dark Souls clone. That game was a success so more power to Grasshopper on that one.

 

[PsychedelicDiamond]

I don't blame him for Paper Mario as much as I blame Tanabe. I think Myamoto was absolutely right in reigning him in after Super Paper Mario which, now, some people consider the last good one but was frankly the point the series jumped the shark. It does have a few redeeming qualities but, and I'm not sure if this is a controversial thing to say, while it may have been better than Sticker Star it's a worse Paper Mario game than Colour Splash. Which is a game I'd defend in general, gameplay and character designs still had a lot of SS's problems but in terms of writing and interesting, varied leveldesign it was getting there. Doesn't hold a candle to the first two games but doesn't deserve to be dismissed as "Sticker Star 2" either. Super Paper Mario is remembered way more fondly than it deserves, the gameplay was different for the sake of being different and the story and character designs had absolutely nothing to do with Mario which is why I understand that Miyamoto told them to stick to the established Mario iconography more.

Anyway, there's a point to be made that Miyamoto is a bit of a relic of a bygone age and that maybe not all of his ideas should be taken as gospel but he's still very much a guy who knows his shit and without whom Nintendo and video games in general wouldn't be what they are today. Because of him and people like him Nintendo is still as dedicated to innovation as it is. Innovation that doesn't always pay off but then, Microsoft has already proven this generation that just "competing with Sony" is not a path towards success. I mean, okay, doesn't help that the XBone has fuck all exclusives which wouldn't be an issue for Nintendo but that aside.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

I don't blame him for Paper Mario as much as I blame Tanabe. I think Myamoto was absolutely right in reigning him in after Super Paper Mario which, now, some people consider the last good one but was frankly the point the series jumped the shark. It does have a few redeeming qualities but, and I'm not sure if this is a controversial thing to say, while it may have been better than Sticker Star it's a worse Paper Mario game than Colour Splash. Which is a game I'd defend in general, gameplay and character designs still had a lot of SS's problems but in terms of writing and interesting, varied leveldesign it was getting there. Doesn't hold a candle to the first two games but doesn't deserve to be dismissed as "Sticker Star 2" either. Super Paper Mario is remembered way more fondly than it deserves, the gameplay was different for the sake of being different and the story and character designs had absolutely nothing to do with Mario which is why I understand that Miyamoto told them to stick to the established Mario iconography more.

Anyway, there's a point to be made that Miyamoto is a bit of a relic of a bygone age and that maybe not all of his ideas should be taken as gospel but he's still very much a guy who knows his shit and without whom Nintendo and video games in general wouldn't be what they are today. Because of him and people like him Nintendo is still as dedicated to innovation as it is. Innovation that doesn't always pay off but then, Microsoft has already proven this generation that just "competing with Sony" is not a path towards success. I mean, okay, doesn't help that the XBone has fuck all exclusives which wouldn't be an issue for Nintendo but that aside.

In what ways did Super Paper Mario jumped the shark?

Because Super Paper Mario essentially just made the game play more or less like a traditional 2D Side-Scrolling platformer like the mainline Mario games, but with RPG elements of the first 2 games.

And imo it was more or less a seamless integration between the 2 gameplay styles.

 

[PsychedelicDiamond]

I don't blame him for Paper Mario as much as I blame Tanabe. I think Myamoto was absolutely right in reigning him in after Super Paper Mario which, now, some people consider the last good one but was frankly the point the series jumped the shark. It does have a few redeeming qualities but, and I'm not sure if this is a controversial thing to say, while it may have been better than Sticker Star it's a worse Paper Mario game than Colour Splash. Which is a game I'd defend in general, gameplay and character designs still had a lot of SS's problems but in terms of writing and interesting, varied leveldesign it was getting there. Doesn't hold a candle to the first two games but doesn't deserve to be dismissed as "Sticker Star 2" either. Super Paper Mario is remembered way more fondly than it deserves, the gameplay was different for the sake of being different and the story and character designs had absolutely nothing to do with Mario which is why I understand that Miyamoto told them to stick to the established Mario iconography more.

Anyway, there's a point to be made that Miyamoto is a bit of a relic of a bygone age and that maybe not all of his ideas should be taken as gospel but he's still very much a guy who knows his shit and without whom Nintendo and video games in general wouldn't be what they are today. Because of him and people like him Nintendo is still as dedicated to innovation as it is. Innovation that doesn't always pay off but then, Microsoft has already proven this generation that just "competing with Sony" is not a path towards success. I mean, okay, doesn't help that the XBone has fuck all exclusives which wouldn't be an issue for Nintendo but that aside.

In what ways did Super Paper Mario jumped the shark?

Because Super Paper Mario essentially just made the game play more or less like a traditional 2D Side-Scrolling platformer like the mainline Mario games, but with RPG elements of the first 2 games.

And imo it was more or less a seamless integration between the 2 gameplay styles.

By... making the game more like a traditional 2D Side-Scrolling platformer, for one. I think that by making the game mostly 2D they made the exploration much less fun. But mostly I'm unhappy with the plot and the character designs. If you looked at characters like Counts Bleck and his gang, Francis, those cavemen guys, the characters in the samurai kingdom... would you assume that they were from a Mario game if you didn't know? The characters designs were honestly pretty awful and didn't belong in a Paper Mario game.

Take the first one. In the first chapter you had Koopas and Bob-Ombs, in the second one the mice from Yoshis island and Bedouin Toads, in the third one it was Boos, in the fourth Shy Guys, in the fifth Yoshis, in the sixth... well, okay, mostly flowers, it was kind of a weird chapter, but also Lakitus. And in the seventh one it was Penguins from Yoshi's island. All characters clearly associated with the Mario universe.

The second game already had quite a few characters original to it, like the Punies, those gloomy looking fellas from the third chapter, but it was still mostly character that looked they had a place in the Mario universe. In Super Paper Mario they all looked like weird squiggly shapes arranged in a vaguely humanoid way and nothing about it looked like it was from a Mario game. You can blame a game like Colour Splash for overcompensating in the other direction by making most of the friendly characters Toads, and I wouldn't disagree, but at least all the character and enemy designs in that game are based on recognizable Mario characters.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

I don't blame him for Paper Mario as much as I blame Tanabe. I think Myamoto was absolutely right in reigning him in after Super Paper Mario which, now, some people consider the last good one but was frankly the point the series jumped the shark. It does have a few redeeming qualities but, and I'm not sure if this is a controversial thing to say, while it may have been better than Sticker Star it's a worse Paper Mario game than Colour Splash. Which is a game I'd defend in general, gameplay and character designs still had a lot of SS's problems but in terms of writing and interesting, varied leveldesign it was getting there. Doesn't hold a candle to the first two games but doesn't deserve to be dismissed as "Sticker Star 2" either. Super Paper Mario is remembered way more fondly than it deserves, the gameplay was different for the sake of being different and the story and character designs had absolutely nothing to do with Mario which is why I understand that Miyamoto told them to stick to the established Mario iconography more.

Anyway, there's a point to be made that Miyamoto is a bit of a relic of a bygone age and that maybe not all of his ideas should be taken as gospel but he's still very much a guy who knows his shit and without whom Nintendo and video games in general wouldn't be what they are today. Because of him and people like him Nintendo is still as dedicated to innovation as it is. Innovation that doesn't always pay off but then, Microsoft has already proven this generation that just "competing with Sony" is not a path towards success. I mean, okay, doesn't help that the XBone has fuck all exclusives which wouldn't be an issue for Nintendo but that aside.

In what ways did Super Paper Mario jumped the shark?

Because Super Paper Mario essentially just made the game play more or less like a traditional 2D Side-Scrolling platformer like the mainline Mario games, but with RPG elements of the first 2 games.

And imo it was more or less a seamless integration between the 2 gameplay styles.

By... making the game more like a traditional 2D Side-Scrolling platformer, for one. I think that by making the game mostly 2D they made the exploration much less fun. But mostly I'm unhappy with the plot and the character designs. If you looked at characters like Counts Bleck and his gang, Francis, those cavemen guys, the characters in the samurai kingdom... would you assume that they were from a Mario game if you didn't know? The characters designs were honestly pretty awful and didn't belong in a Paper Mario game.

Take the first one. In the first chapter you had Koopas and Bob-Ombs, in the second one the mice from Yoshis island and Bedouin Toads, in the third one it was Boos, in the fourth Shy Guys, in the fifth Yoshis, in the sixth... well, okay, mostly flowers, it was kind of a weird chapter, but also Lakitus. And in the seventh one it was Penguins from Yoshi's island. All characters clearly associated with the Mario universe.

The second game already had quite a few characters original to it, like the Punies, those gloomy looking fellas from the third chapter, but it was still mostly character that looked they had a place in the Mario universe. In Super Paper Mario they all looked like weird squiggly shapes arranged in a vaguely humanoid way and nothing about it looked like it was from a Mario game. You can blame a game like Colour Splash for overcompensating in the other direction by making most of the friendly characters Toads, and I wouldn't disagree, but at least all the character and enemy designs in that game are based on recognizable Mario characters.

But it was clearly established that they are in an alternate universe.

The whole block-y look had a point since we are no longer in the Mushroom Kingdom or even "Earth" anymore.

Count Bleck was also very tragic character when you know his full back story.

 

[Hades]

I don't blame him for Paper Mario as much as I blame Tanabe. I think Myamoto was absolutely right in reigning him in after Super Paper Mario which, now, some people consider the last good one but was frankly the point the series jumped the shark. It does have a few redeeming qualities but, and I'm not sure if this is a controversial thing to say, while it may have been better than Sticker Star it's a worse Paper Mario game than Colour Splash. Which is a game I'd defend in general, gameplay and character designs still had a lot of SS's problems but in terms of writing and interesting, varied leveldesign it was getting there. Doesn't hold a candle to the first two games but doesn't deserve to be dismissed as "Sticker Star 2" either. Super Paper Mario is remembered way more fondly than it deserves, the gameplay was different for the sake of being different and the story and character designs had absolutely nothing to do with Mario which is why I understand that Miyamoto told them to stick to the established Mario iconography more.

Anyway, there's a point to be made that Miyamoto is a bit of a relic of a bygone age and that maybe not all of his ideas should be taken as gospel but he's still very much a guy who knows his shit and without whom Nintendo and video games in general wouldn't be what they are today. Because of him and people like him Nintendo is still as dedicated to innovation as it is. Innovation that doesn't always pay off but then, Microsoft has already proven this generation that just "competing with Sony" is not a path towards success. I mean, okay, doesn't help that the XBone has fuck all exclusives which wouldn't be an issue for Nintendo but that aside.

In what ways did Super Paper Mario jumped the shark?

Because Super Paper Mario essentially just made the game play more or less like a traditional 2D Side-Scrolling platformer like the mainline Mario games, but with RPG elements of the first 2 games.

And imo it was more or less a seamless integration between the 2 gameplay styles.

By... making the game more like a traditional 2D Side-Scrolling platformer, for one. I think that by making the game mostly 2D they made the exploration much less fun. But mostly I'm unhappy with the plot and the character designs. If you looked at characters like Counts Bleck and his gang, Francis, those cavemen guys, the characters in the samurai kingdom... would you assume that they were from a Mario game if you didn't know? The characters designs were honestly pretty awful and didn't belong in a Paper Mario game.

The pixels definitely looked out of place but not Count Bleck. The good Count always looked like a traditional Mario rpg villain. Bleck's face was almost copypasted from the ''evil'' treasure chests in TTYD and his huge space cape isn't any stranger than Cackletta's bat cape.

 

[wings012]

For one, he's been on record saying that they don't want to do a new F-Zero because of something about needing a new/better "controller interface" to make it happen... Why? What's wrong with a basic controller? People are clamoring for it, there IS demand... so why not?
On that note, instead of bringing Star Fox back with a simple revamp and a new title, we get motion controls and dual-screen gameplay. Granted, I really like the motion controls for aiming and I have a lot of fun with the game. I see what Miyamoto went for. But of course, we gotta push the hardware how he wants, so no options for normal controls is allowed. Also means a port for the Switch is probably a dead concept, so I have to keep my WiiU around if I ever wanted to play it again.

I kinda understand where he's coming from maybe. He doesn't want to just keep releasing more of the same perhaps, and wants it to actually count when there's a new iteration. Maybe better there be no sequel than there be yearly rote releases like that of EA sports games. Is it better that we get more of something until it is driven into the dirt or we just be left with fond memories of the past?

Not to say a balance cannot exist.

 

[Elvis Starburst]

I kinda understand where he's coming from maybe. He doesn't want to just keep releasing more of the same perhaps, and wants it to actually count when there's a new iteration. Maybe better there be no sequel than there be yearly rote releases like that of EA sports games. Is it better that we get more of something until it is driven into the dirt or we just be left with fond memories of the past?

I do too, and the last thing I want is for Nintendo's IPs to go the way of an every year release. But for some game series that simply don't get the same love as Nintendo's other IPs, like Star Fox or F-Zero, without needing to force "unique ideas" into them or saying there needs to BE a "unique idea" for it to even exist at all is pretty crappy. Especially when the games reach into a 5+ year drought. Even Metroid got shafted pretty hard, but it at least got spared most of the usual Nintendo-isms with its latest releases that revived it

 

[themistermanguy]

Miyamoto's no longer in charge of Nintendo's first party output, so already this thread feels 4 years too late. Miyamoto is focused more on overseeing other ventures like the Super Nintendo World theme park or the Upcoming Mario Movie. He's no longer the man in charge of green-lighting or overseeing software at Nintendo. That's Shinya Takahashi's job.