Should Feminism and Gaming Mix?

[KissingSunlight]

This question came up couple weeks ago in a blog. It detailed one guy's experience playing an online multiplayer game. He performed a violent action against a male avatar that he has done hundreds of times before. A female voice, who was playing that particular male avatar, accused him of being sexist for doing that to her. If that wasn't enough of a buzzkill, half an hour later, she tracked him down in the game and continue to berate him.

I'm for women equality. There are serious issues around the world where that kind of passion and dedication is needed. When you take up an issue in gaming, and claim that you are doing so because you are a feminist. You are devaluing what feminism is about.

What it's actually about is faux rage. Being self-righteously upset about a non-issue. So, you can release whatever anger and stress you've dealt with that day on somebody anonymous online. Yeah, doing that is fun and addictive. Yet, it really does negative impact.

So, isn't about enough time to call B.S. on anyone who try to make a mountain over a molehill about sexism. When you take the time and breakdown their argument about videogames. It really comes down to lazy writing in general. Not some evil patriarchy trying to keep the women down by having Princess Peach getting kidnapped in every game.

 

[Zhukov]

Ugh.

"What it's actually about..."

In other words, "I understand your motivations better than you yourself do, because dismissing your complaints as "faux rage" suits my views".

Yeah. Not the best argument I've seen today.

Also, if it really is just a matter of lazy writing, why does lazy writing always seem to take those forms?

 

[Smooth Operator]

Actual feminism yes, but whatever you guys imagine when waging a war on all sense and reason is not that.

 

[Norithics]

I'm for women equality. There are serious issues around the world where that kind of passion and dedication is needed. When you take up an issue in gaming, and claim that you are doing so because you are a feminist. You are devaluing what feminism is about.

This is the Fallacy of Relative Privation [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_relative_privation].

Read up. Think it over. Come back when you've got something better.

 

[Smeatza]

No.
Obnoxious political groups shouldn't mix with anything.
Which is pretty much all of them.

 

[RickyChinese]

Aside from anecdotal evidence/distortion of feminism/'who's the real oppressor?', it's kind of funny that the OP has a Newsroom avatar, among the worst shows currently airing in terms of misogyny and not being an old white guy's corny soapbox.

 

[Hazy992]

Actual feminism absolutely has a place in gaming, because there is a problem with the way women are treated and represented in this industry, and if people can't see that then they're either not looking hard enough or they're lying.

There is no way people don't see how some female characters in games like Dragon's Crown are problematic; no way they don't see a problem with all-male focus testing and developers having to fight tooth and nail just to get a female on the cover of a game; no way they don't understand the difference between sexual fantasy and power fantasy. I'm sorry but I don't believe you when you say these things.

'ZOMG Anita Sarkeesian blocked teh comments! That's against the First Ammendment and a YouTube video IS America!' Well I'd probably do the same if I was threatened with murder and rape and called anti-Semitic slurs because I had the audacity to make some videos. I wonder how many rape threats the guys who started the 'Tropes vs. Men' Kickstarter received? Because I bet it was zero.

What you described is not feminism, it is just some random woman being an arsehole. It is not the same, and it is certainly not an indictment of the feminist movement.

 

[Karoshi]

Yes, feminism should absolutely never show up in games. Just look at Dishonored, the sheer amount of female characters killed the game, just killed it. Or Fallout: New Vegas, I mean sheesh, why on earth does it have so many female soldiers or NPCs?

As far as I'm concerned, feminism means better written female characters that matter beyond being eye-candy. Is there something outrageous about this request? To emphasize, it's a request and not a demand.

I know that it is lazy writing and that's why people call out on it. Sexism is not as much about men hating women, but it's mostly just lazy thinking and hardmful stereotypes - without an actual intent to harm.

 

[SonicWaffle]

This question came up couple weeks ago in a blog. It detailed one guy's experience playing an online multiplayer game. He performed a violent action against a male avatar that he has done hundreds of times before. A female voice, who was playing that particular male avatar, accused him of being sexist for doing that to her. If that wasn't enough of a buzzkill, half an hour later, she tracked him down in the game and continue to berate him.

Forgive my cynicism, but did he provide proof? A video, a sound recording, his report to the game mods, anything at all? Because there are literally thousands of clearly made-up stories floating around the web about "hysterical women" treating whatever they don't like as sexism. Can he actually prove that he didn't make the story up as part of some imaginary point-scoring game?

I'm for women equality. There are serious issues around the world where that kind of passion and dedication is needed. When you take up an issue in gaming, and claim that you are doing so because you are a feminist. You are devaluing what feminism is about.

Discussing feminist issues which affect women devalues feminism?

 

[Archer666]

Feminism needs to be involved in everything to a certain degree. Of course there will be shitheels who take advantage of it by calling sexism whenever something bad is done against them, but that's the way it has always been. People trying to exploit a system. Personally, this is a bit of a non-issue to me. I'd rather discuss the wage gap between sexes than how a sprite is drawn..

 

[Tribalism]

This is the Fallacy of Relative Privation [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_relative_privation].

Read up. Think it over. Come back when you've got something better.

...but he has a fair point. Sexual objectification and mistreatment of women is present in video games, but they're usually to the tune of RapeLay or Rance Quest where sexual objectification is the core element of gameplay. A sexually attractive woman in a video game is no need to go up in arms. I'd like to see an actual study of people who exclusively played games with "realistic women" (Faith in Mirror's Edge, pre-Other M Samus) vs people who exclusively played games with "unrealistic women" (the sorceress from Dragon's Crown, Princess Peach and a few highlights from Skullgirls) and see how the sex-related crimes stack up. Actual sexism in mainstream AAA Western titles is a non-issue. For every Ivy from Soul Calibur we have a Nathan Drake from Uncharted.

Games like RapeLay and Rance Quest (I could pull up more examples, but honestly, these are enough) have a place in the market because they're niche or controversial. They're not having a huge impact on mainstream attitude towards women. It's the old "violence in video games" argument that was all the rage around the time of Mortal Kombat's, GTA 3's and Manhunt's release. Do women get a lesser representation in gaming? Yes, but this is a consequence of it being a male dominated hobby for the best part of 30+ in the same way you don't see many female football teams.

If people feel women are misrepresented in a video game, enter an indie project into the scene. The indie scene is thriving at the moment. Hits like Gone Home and Dear Esther show you don't need the gameplay aspect to sell a game, Angry Birds has shown us that even simplistic gameplay sells and countless games have shown us that a well told story can sell a game alone... but if we're not prepared to do that, can we at least fight for the rights of women's education in middle Eastern countries without people being shot for that right or having acid thrown in their face?

 

[Tribalism]

I'm for women equality. There are serious issues around the world where that kind of passion and dedication is needed. When you take up an issue in gaming, and claim that you are doing so because you are a feminist. You are devaluing what feminism is about.

Discussing feminist issues which affect women devalues feminism?

"I'm a feminist, I fight for the equal representation of women in the workforce, healthy appearing female role models in the media and the right for Princess Peach to not be captured all the time"

A strawman argument, perhaps, but it doesn't deflect the fact that we have a movement asking for $6,000 in funding to make a series of videos which up until now has only shown examples of women being captured in video games. It does trivialise the movement, since most people on this board see Sarkeesian as the figurehead of feminism (being a video game forum and all that). Her case is trivial compared to many other issues fought by the feminist movement and as such, it trivialises the movement by association.

 

[Norithics]

...but he has a fair point.

Uh, no he doesn't? His point is unfair, and I pointed out exactly the reason why.

Sexual objectification and mistreatment of women is present in video games, but they're usually to the tune of RapeLay or Rance Quest where sexual objectification is the core element of gameplay.

I would posit that you're entirely wrong on this. In a game like RapeLay, it's very extreme and obvious what the intent is toward the female characters. It says "we're gonna victimize some women" right on the tin. However, if you take an ordinary story and then put something very subtly demeaning in it, that normalizes it. So instead of having your defenses up for "oh that's just gonna be a totally ridiculous thing," you're sucker-punched out of nowhere with this perception they put in. It's an old writer's trick to make something seem normal and acceptable to the audience, but in a lot of cases it's done purely out of ignorance.

A sexually attractive woman in a video game is no need to go up in arms. I'd like to see an actual study of people who exclusively played games with "realistic women" (Faith in Mirror's Edge, pre-Other M Samus) vs people who exclusively played games with "unrealistic women" (the sorceress from Dragon's Crown, Princess Peach and a few highlights from Skullgirls) and see how the sex-related crimes stack up. Actual sexism in mainstream AAA Western titles is a non-issue. For every Ivy from Soul Calibur we have a Nathan Drake from Uncharted.

... Because Nathan Drake walks around in a speedo? I don't even see what you're equivocating. But it doesn't even matter; I think that the Ivys can stay. The problem isn't that women get put in skimpy outfits or kidnapped or anything like that. It's that this has been primarily what happens to them. See what I'm saying? Existence isn't the problem, volume is. It's when an 11 year old girl picks up comics and can't find a single heroine she can relate to because they're all written badly- that kind of thing. Nobody with any credibility is saying that they need to go away entirely; just that people need to be aware of this sort of thing so they can have a fair shot at writing/designing more believable and/or varied characters. Because like I said earlier, it's usually done not out of malice, but ignorance- and if nobody says anything, then nobody gets a chance to learn anything. See what I'm saying?

... but if we're not prepared to do that, can we at least fight for the rights of women's education in middle Eastern countries without people being shot for that right or having acid thrown in their face?
...
Her case is trivial compared to many other issues fought by the feminist movement and as such, it trivialises the movement by association.

*facepalm*
Again, fallacious and irrelevant. You literally just gave me the "yeah but still" argument on this "starving kids in Africa" garbage. It's wrong when he said it, it's wrong when you said it. It doesn't get any more compelling by repeating it.

 

[SonicWaffle]

I'm for women equality. There are serious issues around the world where that kind of passion and dedication is needed. When you take up an issue in gaming, and claim that you are doing so because you are a feminist. You are devaluing what feminism is about.

Discussing feminist issues which affect women devalues feminism?

"I'm a feminist, I fight for the equal representation of women in the workforce, healthy appearing female role models in the media and the right for Princess Peach to not be captured all the time"

...right? I'm honestly not sure what you're saying here. That those aren't laudable goals to have?

A strawman argument, perhaps, but it doesn't deflect the fact that we have a movement asking for $6,000 in funding to make a series of videos which up until now has only shown examples of women being captured in video games. It does trivialise the movement, since most people on this board see Sarkeesian as the figurehead of feminism (being a video game forum and all that). Her case is trivial compared to many other issues fought by the feminist movement and as such, it trivialises the movement by association.

I'm not sure how you reach that conclusion. If the movement is intended to cover all issues relating the women's treatment as inferior, from the major to the minor, then how is the movement trivialised by someone doing just that?

 

[xPixelatedx]

Feminism is more then welcome in gaming, in fact I hope to see more games where the women are treated like real people instead of exaggerated boy fantasies. But at the same time I would like to remind everyone of the obvious. At the end of the day, video games are a form of media, fiction, and what they show is not indicative of what society allows, nor should we bound them by those restraints. We shouldn't restrain any form of media by those standards, that is complete absurdity. That's why we can be war criminals in games, even with real wars happening around the world (wars that involve our friends and loved ones), or mass murders, even with real ones making their way onto the evening news all the time. Video games aren't real, their characters aren't real, and their stories aren't real. No one should be using them to learn real lessons, or set criterias for how they feel about women, homosexuals, religion, government or even themselves. It's a game, like chess. It's very much aware of how stupid it is, so why aren't you?

I really wish video games would stop being treated as the new "bible" on which we should govern our society. Their origins are one of absurdity and exaggeration. That is why we have a fat, Italian plumber from Brooklyn jumping through pipes and stomping on turtles in a magical shroom land. It's not some sort of racist cartoon of Italians (even though it could easily be seen as such with the way Mario talks). It really is just a fat, Italian plumber from Brooklyn jumping through pipes and stomping on turtles. Astounding, I know.

 

[carnex]

Look, Feminist are all about opinion on everything in this world so they are going to be in gamers faces. Nothing to do about that. Only thing is to be in their face if you don't agree with them.

Now about how feminist affect games and what people think about their opinions would be whole different subject, one where intelligent discussion is hard to come by.

 

[sweetylnumb]

This question came up couple weeks ago in a blog. It detailed one guy's experience playing an online multiplayer game. He performed a violent action against a male avatar that he has done hundreds of times before. A female voice, who was playing that particular male avatar, accused him of being sexist for doing that to her. If that wasn't enough of a buzzkill, half an hour later, she tracked him down in the game and continue to berate him.

I'm for women equality. There are serious issues around the world where that kind of passion and dedication is needed. When you take up an issue in gaming, and claim that you are doing so because you are a feminist. You are devaluing what feminism is about.

What it's actually about is faux rage. Being self-righteously upset about a non-issue. So, you can release whatever anger and stress you've dealt with that day on somebody anonymous online. Yeah, doing that is fun and addictive. Yet, it really does negative impact.

So, isn't about enough time to call B.S. on anyone who try to make a mountain over a molehill about sexism. When you take the time and breakdown their argument about videogames. It really comes down to lazy writing in general. Not some evil patriarchy trying to keep the women down by having Princess Peach getting kidnapped in every game.

Look, men. Bringing up dried up old twats who complain about such STUPID nonsense as being hit in a game about being hit is like saying that all men are stupid and shouldn't be around...say....idk....shopping malls (be nice im ranting here) because one bloke complained that there were shops everywhere. Or two blokes. Or a hundred. the point is there are billions upon billions of males and writing off their entire gender because a few are incredibly dumb is dumb dumb dumb.

On that note, however, the same shopping mall should still have at least some shops for men, and shouldn't actively discourage men from visiting other stores because its bad for business and its bad for peoples feelings, alright?!

Now with this tortured metaphor i have thus solved the sexism situation and we never need to discuss it again.

 

[Zhukov]

Also, if it really is just a matter of lazy writing, why does lazy writing always seem to take those forms?

I'm not being funny, but I don't quite think you get the obvious flaw with this.

Of course lazy writing winds up taking the same handful of forms, because it's LAZY. If lazy writers endeavoured to present myriad forms or create a breadth of perspectives they would cease to be lazy writers, wouldn't they?

Fair point. I did not express myself clearly.

Perhaps what I should have said is, "Why is it that those are the default forms that lazy writers consistently fall back on?"