Shouldn't Bethesda Just Use The Term "Open World Sandbox"?

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Cyncial_Huggy

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Because honestly, after playing through many of Bethesda's post-Morrowind games it seems that everything I do in the game just doesn't matter and in the end I wind up getting the same exact experience that the person across the room got. For example, in Skyrim, when you pick to be either a Stormcloak or Imperial - you still get the same exact set of quests and the same wrapup in the end with only the slightest different in dialogue or comments from the only people who give a rat's ass, the guards.

You're always the CHOSEN ONE. You're the Dragonborn, you're the Listener, you're the MASTER THIEF, you're a VAMPIRE and a fucking WEREWOLF. You can join every single faction without your stats being any matter, you can be the head of the College of Winterhold and only know one or two spells. In the other games, you're just some guy that has to prove yourself, sure you have a certain destiny but in the end you have to prove that you are capable of that destiny. In Skyrim, two story quests in people hail you as a GOD. And I understand Bethesda's motto of, "Giving you as much freedom as possible." But honestly, in RPGs your choices matter, your character build matters. Like, in the E3 gameplay footage of Fallout 4, the character's intelligence was set at 3. He still talked perfectly fine,but in reality, that stat would suffer major consequences and throughout the game he would be talking as if his mom beat his head against the coffee table constantly when he was young such as the original Fallouts and New Vegas.

But again, consequences. The storyline is always the same when you replay the game, you have no choice in the matter. When you kill an important NPC, they go unconcious. When you kill a quest giver, you still have the quest but you recieve it from another NPC. Just because you have a leveling up system doesn't make it an RPG, an RPG has choices and when you make those choices they should have some more impact other than a mention from the guards and should have a consequence even if you don't know it. For example, in Oblivion, there was group of Vampire Hunters in the Imperial City. If you are famous but they vampire, you never get that quest. If you were a Vampire in Skyrim they would be like the love child of Helen Keller and Ray Charles. Just because an RPG has leveling up elements doesn't make it an RPG, even Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas has somewhat of a leveling system - but that's an element, but it doesn't change the whole way the game is played neccessarly, sure doing them will give you perks but that's it. Fallout 4 will be a good game, I'm sure, but a good OPEN WORLD game - just not an RPG.

And don't bring up mods, because becoming too lenient on a community is dangerous. Sure, it doesn't neccesarly make them lazy, because Bethesda puts hardwork into their games - but they seem to miss market their games and depending on the community for content that should already be finished beforehand should be in the hands of the developers. Again, this is just my opinion. But, when I think RPG, I think - every decision I do will bite me in the ass, I have to remember to drink water, I can't access this yet because this or that is a higher level then me, I have to constantly manage and think my attack first beforehand (which Fallout 4 seems to be doing good with the real-time Pipboy.)
 

BloatedGuppy

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It's a sandbox RPG.

Bethesda has cheerfully referred to their games as sandboxes for a very long time now. It's considered a positive distinction.

Sandbox describes the method with which you interact with the environment. It's not a genre.
 

Cyncial_Huggy

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BloatedGuppy said:
It's a sandbox RPG.

Bethesda has cheerfully referred to their games as sandboxes for a very long time now. It's considered a positive distinction.

Sandbox describes the method with which you interact with the environment. It's not a genre.
Again, the term RPG. It's not really an RPG, it's a hybrid of the genre. RPG is means Role-Playing. Which means I'm pretending and being immersed into my own decisions and my own world, but the problem with Skyrim is my own world and my own decisions are 100% everyone else in terms of plot and story. While, in say, the original Fallout what I did might have been completely different from a lot of others and sure you all did the same thing and got to the end, you could do it immensley different from the other person beside you.

If you want an RPG experience play Planescape: Torment, Baldur's Gate, Fallout 1 and 2. Games where every single detail of what you do is observed and played through.
 

tippy2k2

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I think you're taking the term RPG way too literally. A couple of RPGs off the top of my head include

Final Fantasy series
Mass Effect/Dragon Age
Ni No Kuni
Fire Emblem

Except for a limited amount of freedom in Mass Effect and Dragon Age, all of these give you zero choice. You are playing their story with their rules. There is no freedom in those games as you are following the path the developers have put you on and you have no way to deviate from that path (unless you go Spec-Ops on the bit and turn the game off?). Are you telling me that those five games up there are not RPGs?

Total freedom RPGs exist but they are a sub-genre of the RPG genre.
 

Cyncial_Huggy

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tippy2k2 said:
I think you're taking the term RPG way too literally. A couple of RPGs off the top of my head include

Final Fantasy series
Mass Effect/Dragon Age
Ni No Kuni
Fire Emblem

Except for a limited amount of freedom in Mass Effect and Dragon Age, all of these give you zero choice. You are playing their story with their rules. There is no freedom in those games as you are following the path the developers have put you on and you have no way to deviate from that path (unless you go Spec-Ops on the bit and turn the game off?).

These are current RPGs, and Final Fantasy is J-RPG. I'm talking about Baldur's Gate, Morrowind, Fallout 1 & 2. The RPGs from the 1990s'. The ones that Bethesda originally made. The Morrowinds, the Daggerfalls, etc. Honestly, I'm just being a nostalgia ***** and yearning for the past, I presume. But again, most mainstream RPGs you just described are not the ones that I'm talking about, the true RPGs.

Total freedom RPGs exist but they are a sub-genre of the RPG genre.
Again, Fallout 1 and 2. Planescape: Torment. Etc. Also, the ones you described are from today. What I'm saying is this, in Fallout 1 and 2 - you know, the series the fourth one they're making is from - you had all these decisions and options at your disposal. I could kill everything and everyone, I could kill kids, I could be a boxer, I could be a porn star. I had decisions, I had choices. J-RPGs are a whole different thing, and fall in the line of Skyrim, there are no decisions and the ones you do make our shit. The true RPG genre is the C-RPG genre, the one where you do what you want and the decisions are vast and huge.
 

tippy2k2

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Cyncial_Huggy said:
These are current RPGs, and Final Fantasy is J-RPG. I'm talking about Baldur's Gate, Morrowind, Fallout 1 & 2. The RPGs from the 1990s'. The ones that Bethesda originally made. The Morrowinds, the Daggerfalls, etc. Honestly, I'm just being a nostalgia ***** and yearning for the past, I presume. But again, most mainstream RPGs you just described are not the ones that I'm talking about, the true RPGs.

Again, Fallout 1 and 2. Planescape: Torment. Etc. Also, the ones you described are from today. What I'm saying is this, in Fallout 1 and 2 - you know, the series the fourth one they're making is from - you had all these decisions and options at your disposal. I could kill everything and everyone, I could kill kids, I could be a boxer, I could be a porn star. I had decisions, I had choices. J-RPGs are a whole different thing, and fall in the line of Skyrim, there are no decisions and the ones you do make our shit. The true RPG genre is the C-RPG genre, the one where you do what you want and the decisions are vast and huge.
So none of those are "True" RPGs because....you've decided that they are not true RPGs? A "True" RPG has to fit your bullet list in order to count as a real RPG and the rest of these RPGs are....fake I guess?

I'm sorry if you miss "True" RPGs but the definition of RPG does not change just because you don't like the games being made. Your "True" RPG is a subgenre of the RPG genre; they are not the definition of RPGs. That's why Bethesda calls their games "Sandbox RPGs"; there is a whole wide variety of what belongs in the RPG genre besides what you like.
 

Cyncial_Huggy

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tippy2k2 said:
Cyncial_Huggy said:
These are current RPGs, and Final Fantasy is J-RPG. I'm talking about Baldur's Gate, Morrowind, Fallout 1 & 2. The RPGs from the 1990s'. The ones that Bethesda originally made. The Morrowinds, the Daggerfalls, etc. Honestly, I'm just being a nostalgia ***** and yearning for the past, I presume. But again, most mainstream RPGs you just described are not the ones that I'm talking about, the true RPGs.

Again, Fallout 1 and 2. Planescape: Torment. Etc. Also, the ones you described are from today. What I'm saying is this, in Fallout 1 and 2 - you know, the series the fourth one they're making is from - you had all these decisions and options at your disposal. I could kill everything and everyone, I could kill kids, I could be a boxer, I could be a porn star. I had decisions, I had choices. J-RPGs are a whole different thing, and fall in the line of Skyrim, there are no decisions and the ones you do make our shit. The true RPG genre is the C-RPG genre, the one where you do what you want and the decisions are vast and huge.
So none of those are "True" RPGs because....you've decided that they are not true RPGs? A "True" RPG has to fit your bullet list in order to count as a real RPG and the rest of these RPGs are....fake I guess?

I'm sorry if you miss "True" RPGs but the definition of RPG does not change just because you don't like the games being made. Your "True" RPG is a subgenre of the RPG genre; they are not the definition of RPGs. That's why Bethesda calls their games "Sandbox RPGs"; there is a whole wide variety of what belongs in the RPG genre besides what you like.
Again, Fallout 1 and 2. Those are the true RPGs because they don't hold your hand and tell you where to go, the worst thing about Bethesda's games are that they treat the player like he's an idiot. Every quest it vaguely tells you what to do, no directions or anything. Just, do this and come back and you follow a quest marker.

Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNKfVfRiPoQ

Watch that. DWTerminator has points that will show.
 

tippy2k2

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Cyncial_Huggy said:
Again, Fallout 1 and 2. Those are the true RPGs because they don't hold your hand and tell you where to go, the worst thing about Bethesda's games are that they treat the player like he's an idiot. Every quest it vaguely tells you what to do, no directions or anything. Just, do this and come back and you follow a quest marker.

Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNKfVfRiPoQ

Watch that. DWTerminator has points that will show.
...are you seriously expecting me to watch a 55 minute video to find out why only your definition of RPG is the true definition and why all these other RPGs evidently don't count as real RPGs?

I have a feeling we're just going to go around in circles so I will end it here; RPGs is a wide genre. C-RPGs (as you called them) are PART of that genre; they are not THE genre. You can feel free to play nothing but "True" RPGs but Fallout 1 is just as much a RPG as Fallout 3 or Skyrim or Dragon Age or Ni No Kuni or many, many other varieties of the RPG genre.
 

Cyncial_Huggy

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tippy2k2 said:
Cyncial_Huggy said:
Again, Fallout 1 and 2. Those are the true RPGs because they don't hold your hand and tell you where to go, the worst thing about Bethesda's games are that they treat the player like he's an idiot. Every quest it vaguely tells you what to do, no directions or anything. Just, do this and come back and you follow a quest marker.

Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNKfVfRiPoQ

Watch that. DWTerminator has points that will show.
...are you seriously expecting me to watch a 55 minute video to find out why only your definition of RPG is the true definition and why all these other RPGs evidently don't count as real RPGs?

I have a feeling we're just going to go around in circles so I will end it here; RPGs is a wide genre. C-RPGs (as you called them) are PART of that genre; they are not THE genre. You can feel free to play nothing but "True" RPGs but Fallout 1 is just as much a RPG as Fallout 3 or Skyrim or Dragon Age or Ni No Kuni or many, many other varieties of the RPG genre.
It's 55 minutes you'll never regret. No, Fallout 1 is in a completely different genre from Fallout 3, Skyrim or Dragon Age. It is in a different category of its own, it is in a subgenre. It's not THE genre of RPGs, its the TRUE genre of RPGs, the TRUE subgenre.
 

DrownedAmmet

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Why do people always draw lines in the sand of what a "true" thing is, and then act all superior to fans of the "non-true" thing?

I mean yeah, the new Bethesda games are a lot more linear and hand-holdy than the older ones, but you don't need to act all high and mighty.

I think Skyrim and Fallout New Vegas took some good steps forward. In Skyrim at least you had the option of joining the Empire or the Stormcloaks, and New Vegas had tons of extra dialogue options and different ways to finish quests. Yeah they could have been better, but I still look forward to FO4 and whenever the next Elder Scrolls game comes out.
 

JamesStone

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Cyncial_Huggy said:
tippy2k2 said:
Cyncial_Huggy said:
Again, Fallout 1 and 2. Those are the true RPGs because they don't hold your hand and tell you where to go, the worst thing about Bethesda's games are that they treat the player like he's an idiot. Every quest it vaguely tells you what to do, no directions or anything. Just, do this and come back and you follow a quest marker.

Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNKfVfRiPoQ

Watch that. DWTerminator has points that will show.
...are you seriously expecting me to watch a 55 minute video to find out why only your definition of RPG is the true definition and why all these other RPGs evidently don't count as real RPGs?

I have a feeling we're just going to go around in circles so I will end it here; RPGs is a wide genre. C-RPGs (as you called them) are PART of that genre; they are not THE genre. You can feel free to play nothing but "True" RPGs but Fallout 1 is just as much a RPG as Fallout 3 or Skyrim or Dragon Age or Ni No Kuni or many, many other varieties of the RPG genre.
It's 55 minutes you'll never regret. No, Fallout 1 is in a completely different genre from Fallout 3, Skyrim or Dragon Age. It is in a different category of its own, it is in a subgenre. It's not THE genre of RPGs, its the TRUE genre of RPGs, the TRUE subgenre.
A 55 minute video won't change reality. You can argue that they SHOULD be the "TRUE" genre of RPGs, and others shouldn't, but reality won't bulge because of a 55 minute video. Fallout 1 and 2 is as much of a RPG as Fallout 3 and New Vegas, and that's something that you'll either have to deal with or do something to change the definitions.
 

Aiddon_v1legacy

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DrownedAmmet said:
Why do people always draw lines in the sand of what a "true" thing is, and then act all superior to fans of the "non-true" thing?

I mean yeah, the new Bethesda games are a lot more linear and hand-holdy than the older ones, but you don't need to act all high and mighty.

I think Skyrim and Fallout New Vegas took some good steps forward. In Skyrim at least you had the option of joining the Empire or the Stormcloaks, and New Vegas had tons of extra dialogue options and different ways to finish quests. Yeah they could have been better, but I still look forward to FO4 and whenever the next Elder Scrolls game comes out.
Because it's a way for people to distance games they don't like from the genre they're in. It's why I hate the term "JRPG" because it was clearly invented to distance them from Western-made RPGs, like they're saying games such as Final Fantasy, Persona, Shin Megami Tensei, Etrian Odyssey, Vagrant Story, etc are inherently inferior and will never be TRUE RPGs. Just good, old-fashioned intellectual bigotry.
 

09philj

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Cyncial_Huggy said:
Fallout 4 will be a good game, I'm sure, but a good OPEN WORLD game - just not an RPG.]
Under your ludicrously tight definition of "RPG", the only things left we can define as "proper" RPGs are the ones which use the Dungeons and Dragons rules or are inspired by them, and possibly a few old Bioware titles. Which leaves the burning question as to what Final Fantasy VI, Earthbound, and Pokemon are. I'm waiting.

Aiddon said:
DrownedAmmet said:
It's why I hate the term "JRPG" because it was clearly invented to distance them from Western-made RPGs, like they're saying games such as Final Fantasy, Persona, Shin Megami Tensei, Etrian Odyssey, Vagrant Story, etc are inherently inferior and will never be TRUE RPGs. Just good, old-fashioned intellectual bigotry.
What? I'm pretty sure that to most people from the west it means RPGs made in Japan or in the Japanese style, as opposed to the ones made in the western style we just call RPGs. Do you want us to call them WRPGs or something?
 

Odbarc

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The idea that you can be so many chosen ones of so many is a little off putting assuming you play one character to complete all the quests.

What I like to do is use that another-life mod where you start off in a specific guild (or other options) but then I only join that one guild to play. Once I hit level 50 my character retires. He's gotten old.

I consider being Dragonborn to be it's own guild and I mostly avoid the main story (and all the dragons ruining my strolls safely down the road).
 

Hawki

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Something to keep in mind when declaring things to be "true RPGs" or "true fans" or "true whatever."
 

lacktheknack

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You're MASSIVELY overstating the effects of your decisions in the early Fallout games.

Actually, you're MASSIVELY overstating a whole whackload of things.

This whole topic reeks of the "Fighting Games Are Not Skill Based, Only Memorization Based" thread we had a few months ago. So you don't like a specific subgenre. That doesn't mean you have to act like it needs to be disconnected from everything else.

That would be like me saying that everything Telltale does today is utterly inferior and a different genre to the masterwork of Cyan.

And that would make me annoying.

Very, very annoying.
 

sXeth

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tippy2k2 said:
I think you're taking the term RPG way too literally. A couple of RPGs off the top of my head include

Final Fantasy series
Mass Effect/Dragon Age
Ni No Kuni
Fire Emblem

Except for a limited amount of freedom in Mass Effect and Dragon Age, all of these give you zero choice. You are playing their story with their rules. There is no freedom in those games as you are following the path the developers have put you on and you have no way to deviate from that path (unless you go Spec-Ops on the bit and turn the game off?). Are you telling me that those five games up there are not RPGs?

Total freedom RPGs exist but they are a sub-genre of the RPG genre.
Well the distinction to be made is that in Elder Scrolls, you are making the character, and should have relative freedom in your own choices. You aren't Commander Shephard, or Cloud, or Geralt of Riviera who are all predefined characters with their own backstories. Or if you are supposed to be this existing character, you're horribly lacking in characterization or backstory.
 

Lufia Erim

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DrownedAmmet said:
Why do people always draw lines in the sand of what a "true" thing is, and then act all superior to fans of the "non-true" thing?

I mean yeah, the new Bethesda games are a lot more linear and hand-holdy than the older ones, but you don't need to act all high and mighty.

I think Skyrim and Fallout New Vegas took some good steps forward. In Skyrim at least you had the option of joining the Empire or the Stormcloaks, and New Vegas had tons of extra dialogue options and different ways to finish quests. Yeah they could have been better, but I still look forward to FO4 and whenever the next Elder Scrolls game comes out.
Labels help us define things. The whole genre naming thing has been mucked up. Someone reload a a new save so we can try again.

I kinda agree in the sense that the naming of these genres are inaccurate at best. Every other game now is an action adventure game, which doesn't really say a whole lot.
 

CrystalShadow

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So, basically you use a logical fallacy to redefine the meaning of what constitutes an RPG because you don't like the actual definition?

I'm sorry, but languages don't work that way. All you'll accomplish with that is confusing yourself and everyone you talk to about the subject.

Besides, by that kind of definition, a computer is more or less incapable of running a 'proper' RPG because the choices you have are always going to be limited, and have only a handful of possible paths and consequences. (unlike a pen & paper RPG where the GM can, if nessesary, improvise a response to pretty much any action you could possibly think of)

An RPG simply has a different, broader definition than the one you wish it did. But that doesn't make you right, and everyone else wrong. Sit down for a moment, take a deep breath, and take a good look at everything that gets called an RPG, then see if you can work out the actual definition in use, not the definition you wish existed.
 

WonkyWarmaiden

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I guess you should just not play current RPGs then, huh?

Bethesda makes awesome sandbox RPGs with as many choices as they can give the player. You don't have to join the Thieves Guild or the Dark Brotherhood but they make sure to give you the option. It's up to you to choose how you want to play the game.

God, I'm tired of people trying to discredit Bethesda and say that they're inferior to other game studios. Can't we all just get along?