So far, the Witcher 3 seems kind of sexist

[The Almighty Aardvark]

Hoo boy, I'm sure I'll regret having made this thread. I would love to be proven wrong though. I'm going to do my best to be civil in my arguments, and I would appreciate it if everyone else discussing in this thread could be as well. This includes condescension, personal attacks, provocative comments, and everything else like that. If everyone coming in could keep that in mind, hey, maybe this thread won't get locked. If it devolves into that, I'll request it gets locked.

Just to start off with a disclaimer, I'm not all that far in the Witcher. I'm approaching the end of the Baron's quest (And I've got a lot to say about that), and am only level 8. It's also worth mentioning that I haven't played either of the first two Witcher games. Given that I'm only this far in the game, it'd be nice if people could either spoiler tag spoilers, or at least acknowledge that I'll be averting my eyes whenever they're brought up, and won't be addressing them.

Also worth noting, I think that in a lot of regards this is a fantastic game. From a standpoint of the graphics, it's one of the most technically impressive games I've seen to date. The gameplay is fun, though not exceptional, and I am very much enjoying the game.

Now to business

First off, this game is blatantly one sided in its sex appeal, and it's shown off quite frequently. Out of the three main female characters I've seen so far, two of them were introduced totally naked, and one of them is your daughter figure. From what I know of Triss, I wouldn't be at all surprised if she was introduced with a similar level of apparel. The degree to which everyone seems to fawn over Geralt, attractive stud that he is, is kind of remniscient of a harem anime.

Speaking of Geralt being an attractive stud, this is not chiefly because he is particularly attractive, but because just about every other male NPC in the world is incredibly ugly. You see this kind of trope very often in games, movies, etc... where the world is full of drop dead gorgeous female NPCs, and fuck ugly male NPCs. Except for the player character of course, because the player doesn't want their avatar to be ugly, they just don't have any interest in the other male NPC's attractiveness because the player is quite evidently assumed to be a guy.

So far, you could just respond to these complaints with "So what? The game's just made for guys. There's no crime in that. What's actually sexist here?" Which leads me to the Bloody Baron questline. Now don't get me wrong, I think this questline overall very good, and I love just how personal it is, as well as how they didn't straight up paint the Baron as an inhuman monster. From here, it's worth noting that there's spoilers for the Bloody Baron questline.

It made me kind of uncomfortable watching the Bloody Baron's questline, I liked that they made him human, but they kept toeing the line between making him understandable and human, to making him seem sympathetic and justified. Now that I've almost finished the quest, I have a better idea of where it stands, and as things look, it's kind of shitty.

Spoiler: Summary of Bloody Baron questline

To start off with, the Baron requests that you find his missing wife and daughter. You don't have much detail to start off with, but he appears to just be a doting father and husband. As the quest unfolds, however, you see that this is a facade, and that his wife and daughter ran away because he regularly beat his wife. To the point that she apparently miscarried the child. As even more unfolds, it turns out that the child was not miscarried from the beatings, but from a deal she made with the Crones because she couldn't stand the thought of giving birth to child of this husband who she didn't love and beat her.

Where this turns south for me, is the conversation you have with the Baron after you find out Anna's (The wife's) fate. The Baron explains that he's not the only guilty party here, and elaborates more on the story. When they first wed, the Baron was a soldier, they were in love to start off with, but then he spent all his time in battle, in campaigns. During that time, Anna fell out of love with him, and cheated on him with another man. When he returned, she declared that she was in love with this new man, and that she was going to take their daughter and go live with him. The Baron was furious, and drunk, so he killed the man his wife loved, tore him to pieces and fed it to his dogs. Anna became upset, and tried to kill him with a knife, the Baron then hit her, because it was the only way to calm her. Over the remaining years of their marriage she would keep trying to kill him, kill herself, or goad him into violence, after which he'd continue to beat her until she stopped.

First of all, Anna cheating on her husband was wrong, no question. So was her just taking their child and leaving. However, the Baron's response to dismember the man that she loves, feed him to dogs, and then expect his wife to then continue living with him happily? Holy fucking shit, that's just whole other level of wrong. If the Baron was still portrayed as in the wrong after this, then that would have been fine, but the two dialogue choices were:

"Sounds like you two deserve each other"

And

"You're still in the wrong".

What happens if you choose the latter? The bit that Geralt decides to pick at for what makes him in the wrong is that "The Baron was in the wrong for being away from his wife, which led her to cheat on him". Uh... what? Out of everything that happened - having driven his wife to the point of suicide by slaughtering the man she loved in front of her, keeping her trapped in a relationship with a man who murdered someone he loved, and beating her regularly in fits of rage - the mistake he made was "Putting her in a position to cheat"? All this leads me to believe is that they wanted to have a dialogue choice besides "You were both in the wrong", and the closest they could figure out was "Uh, how about if he was somehow responsible for her cheating?". This is further reinforced by how Geralt is totally shut down if he says that. Showing that anything besides "You were both in the wrong" is the answer for people who clearly didn't think this situation through enough.

Frankly, the elaboration that the Bloody Baron gave make him seem a lot worse to me, as opposed to more sympathetic. And everything following it gives rise to this notion that cheating on your husband is pretty much equivalent to murdering your wife's lover in front of her, driving her to suicide, then beating her regularly over the years. Thus far, everything that I'm seeing is convincing me that they were going for a "Both people were at fault" situation.

Why is this sexist? The notion of years of spousal abused being even close to equivalent to cheating on your husband is incredibly dismissive of the severity of spousal abuse, and gives the suggestion that somehow she was asking for it by goading him, and cheating on him.

----------

Just to end this off, I want to remind everyone again that I like this game, and moreover, there is a lot that I really like in the Bloody Baron arc. That being said, the way it handles a lot of things leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

What are your opinions on this? Do you agree with me, and are there more instances that bothered you about this game? Do you disagree with me? Which parts, and how?

EDIT:
The Madman made a timeline of events that happen in the Bloody Baron questline, whether or not you've played the game, this may be a useful reference.

*snip*

 

[Elfgore]

Why is this sexist? The notion of years of spousal abused being even close to equivalent to cheating on your husband is incredibly dismissive of the severity of spousal abuse, and gives the suggestion that somehow she was asking for it by goading him, and cheating on him.

I think you're looking far, far, far to deep into that line. I took that line as "Holy shit, you are both terrible people!" not "Holy shit, You are both equally at fault and terrible people". I'm just not really seeing it from my end here.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

Is Geralt not allowed to have backwards opinions as well about things? He's a monster killer in a a feudal fantasy world, like how progressive do you actually expect him to be?

I mean the little I've played of Witcher 3, Geralt doesn't come across as a guy who's really good with relationships. So it kinda fits the character that he would say something like that.

To draw a comparison... LA Noir would be a sexist game too, even racist. Well no shit, it's 1950s america and it's characters are flawed. Not every character needs to be a rolemodel, ya know?

EDIT: My feeling would be a little different if the game's main character was suppose to be a proxy for the player to project on to, like Fallout 3.

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

People just have to see sexism in everything. If they can't find it easy, they'll dig and dig and dig until they can find something and call it sexist. It's bullshit.

Just to remind you, you're talking about a medieval setting where men had all the power anyway. What the fuck do you expect from a medieval period? Progressivism and equal rights?

 

[Casual Shinji]

Why is this sexist? The notion of years of spousal abused being even close to equivalent to cheating on your husband is incredibly dismissive of the severity of spousal abuse, and gives the suggestion that somehow she was asking for it by goading him, and cheating on him.

What this is trying to say is that the Baron isn't just someone who likes to beat his wife for kicks. He has problems and it's making him hurt the people closest to him, but he is aware and ashamed of it. That doesn't mean the game is absolving him of the bulk of the blame in the matter.

His wife also obviously had problems, problems he couldn't deal with, and it sent him even further into alchoholism and rage. Also note that the game saying she goaded him are his words, and he's hardly the most objective narrarator.

The Bloody Baron is a "bad guy", but he's not a simple cartoon villain, he's a human being. So I wouldn't say the game is trying to make spousal abuse equivalent to cheating, but merely that it tries to humanize it.

First off, this game is blatantly one sided in its sex appeal, and it's shown off quite frequently. Out of the three main female characters I've seen so far, two of them were introduced totally naked, and one of them is your daughter figure. From what I know of Triss, I wouldn't be at all surprised if she was introduced with a similar level of apparel. The degree to which everyone seems to fawn over Geralt, attractive stud that he is, is kind of remniscient of a harem anime.

Speaking of Geralt being an attractive stud, this is not chiefly because he is particularly attractive, but because just about every other male NPC in the world is incredibly ugly. You see this kind of trope very often in games, movies, etc... where the world is full of drop dead gorgeous female NPCs, and fuck ugly male NPCs. Except for the player character of course, because the player doesn't want their avatar to be ugly, they just don't have any interest in the other male NPC's attractiveness because the player is quite evidently assumed to be a guy.

Can't argue too much with this though, the game does love it's beautiful women. But when you think about it, both Geralt and Yennifer get introduced naked. And I find the 'naked backside' always the more tasteful variety.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

First, I think just the important female NPC's look good, with the rest of the NPC's (not important ones) looking pretty mediocre, considering that those NPC's are witches who can change their looks it's not too weird, I don't see the important male NPC's as ugly either, especially Gerald and Dandelion.

I already mentioned the main character, of course you don't want the main character ugly, the main character is you. And unless a female NPC is very old, or literally a monster, they tend to be quite attractive. At the very least miles over every single other male NPC.

As for the second thing, The Baron was in the wrond for killing his wife's lover (though it mitigates when you remember he was in a war with probably has some kind of issue after it), but she was a fucking psychopath, she pretty much mentally abused him until he started hitting her plus selling her unborn baby to witch's thing (if I remember correctly). Yeah, "technically" he is the one with power, but mentally torturing your spouse is as bad as beating him. Especially as learning about him you see he tries to be a good husband and father only to be driven mad by his wife.

Everything that you cite as her being a psychopath for happened after he dismembered the man she loved in front of her. Given that the Witcher 3 takes place in a misogynistic society, she was fighting back using basically the only means she could. Those are, running away, killing him, or killing herself. All of which she tried. If someone killed someone I loved, and fed them to dogs in front of me, I can't say I'd be treating them in all that great of a manner.

I think you're looking far, far, far to deep into that line. I took that line as "Holy shit, you are both terrible people!" not "Holy shit, You are both equally at fault and terrible people". I'm just not really seeing it from my end here.

It's honestly hard to not hear the words "You two deserve each other" said about an abuse victim and her husband (Said in that context), and not interpret it as saying she deserved a husband who beat her.

Is Geralt not allowed to have backwards opinions as well about things? He's a monster killer in a a feudal fantasy world, like how progressive do you actually expect him to be?

I mean the little I've played of Witcher 3, Geralt doesn't come across as a guy who's really good with relationships. So it kinda fits the character that he would say something like that.

To draw a comparison... LA Noir would be a sexist game too, even racist. Well no shit, it's 1950s america and it's characters are flawed. Not every character needs to be a rolemodel, ya know?

EDIT: My feeling would be a little different if the game's main character was suppose to be a proxy for the player to project on to, like Fallout 3.

Geralt is generally portrayed as a good guy (Or at the very least has the option to be), though he may use iffy means to achieve those ends. Regardless, through this entire situation you've had the option to play the "good guy" taking a stand against the abuse, and treating this guy like how we would in a more modern society. You even get that option at this point too, only if you pursue it the game focuses on something that's incredibly reaching and indefensible, and you come across as stupid for suggesting it. It just doesn't seem to me like the writers think that the option that they don't deserve each other is valid.

They could have definitely done something like LA Noire, and Madmen, and then it wouldn't have bothered me. The problem is that it isn't coming across like that, and saying that it is just seems like an adhoc response to justify his actions. Even in Madmen, the show doesn't portray the actions the characters are making as positive, even if the characters do.

 

[Phasmal]

I already mentioned the main character, of course you don't want the main character ugly, the main character is you. And unless a female NPC is very old, or literally a monster, they tend to be quite attractive. At the very least miles over every single other male NPC.

Yeah but Geralt is ugly. That's one of the reasons I can't get into The Witcher.

Anyway, yeah, I have this game. It's been sitting on my shelf for ages. I played about 5 minutes, got creeped out by how obsessed with 'how Yennifer smells' Geralt is. (Seriously, if my boyfriend lost me and went around describing how I smelled to strangers- that's a restraining order).

I heard about the Baron questline, and that gives me even less reason to ever get round to playing the game more. I'm really not interested in a game that tries to make me sympathise with a domestic abuser. Noooo thanks.

Of course, if you describe anything as 'sexism' in a game, prepare to be drowned in a flood of guys telling you 'no there's no sexism here no sexism anywhere no no shhhh'.

 

[B-Cell_v1legacy]

I wish game didnot have insane amount of sex scenes. i never understand the point of them.

 

[B-Cell_v1legacy]

Yeah but Geralt is ugly. That's one of the reasons I can't get into The Witcher.

so you want main characters to looks like super model my friend?

come on, main characters should looks badass. not supermodel.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

Is Geralt not allowed to have backwards opinions as well about things? He's a monster killer in a a feudal fantasy world, like how progressive do you actually expect him to be?

I mean the little I've played of Witcher 3, Geralt doesn't come across as a guy who's really good with relationships. So it kinda fits the character that he would say something like that.

To draw a comparison... LA Noir would be a sexist game too, even racist. Well no shit, it's 1950s america and it's characters are flawed. Not every character needs to be a rolemodel, ya know?

EDIT: My feeling would be a little different if the game's main character was suppose to be a proxy for the player to project on to, like Fallout 3.

Geralt is generally portrayed as a good guy (Or at the very least has the option to be), though he may use iffy means to achieve those ends. Regardless, through this entire situation you've had the option to play the "good guy" taking a stand against the abuse, and treating this guy like how we would in a more modern society. You even get that option at this point too, only if you pursue it the game focuses on something that's incredibly reaching and indefensible, and you come across as stupid for suggesting it. It just doesn't seem to me like the writers think that the option that they don't deserve each other is valid.

They could have definitely done something like LA Noire, and Madmen, and then it wouldn't have bothered me. The problem is that it isn't coming across like that, and saying that it is just seems like an adhoc response to justify his actions. Even in Madmen, the show doesn't portray the actions the characters are making as positive, even if the characters do.

I mean, he is a Good Guy, but that means he can't be fucked up in someway? It makes perfect sense to me that Geralt would have that point of view between the setting and the fact that he's not a relationship expert.

Does the game have to beat the audience over the head? You were clearly smart enough to catch that it was a pretty fucked up thing to say. It is a fucked up thing to say. I don't feel like art has a responsibility to be like "DON'T LOOK UP TO THE HERO RIGHT NOW, CAUSE THIS IS FUCKED UP AND IF YOU DO YOU'RE PART OF THE RAPE CULTURE" thing.

I don't feel the game is sexist. I think the character has sexist views. It's a part of who he is.

 

[Phasmal]

Yeah but Geralt is ugly. That's one of the reasons I can't get into The Witcher.

so you want main characters to looks like super model my friend?

come on, main characters should looks badass. not supermodel.

Yeah. If every woman is immediately down to drop her panties at the sight of Geralt, he should at least be good-looking enough to merit that.

Female main characters are always sexy. Give me a sexy Geralt.

 

[B-Cell_v1legacy]

Yeah but Geralt is ugly. That's one of the reasons I can't get into The Witcher.

so you want main characters to looks like super model my friend?

come on, main characters should looks badass. not supermodel.

Yeah. If every woman is immediately down to drop her panties at the sight of Geralt, he should at least be good-looking enough to merit that.

Female main characters are always sexy. Give me a sexy Geralt.

Good looking characters always suck like shepard from mass effect or nathan drake. they looks like never been into any fight.

beside portal I dont really found games that include female main characters are very good. Never liked tomb raider games etc.

 

[Phasmal]

Good looking characters always suck like shepard from mass effect or nathan drake. they looks like never been into any fight.

beside portal I dont really found games that include female main characters are very good. Never liked tomb raider games etc.

Ok sure. Let's agree to disagree. And I didn't really ask if you liked female main characters, that's kind of irrelevant. But you know. You do you.

 

[B-Cell_v1legacy]

Good looking characters always suck like shepard from mass effect or nathan drake. they looks like never been into any fight.

beside portal I dont really found games that include female main characters are very good. Never liked tomb raider games etc.

Ok sure. Let's agree to disagree. And I didn't really ask if you liked female main characters, that's kind of irrelevant. But you know. You do you.

my dear friend, you dont like because geralt is not handsome. i dont like it much because its dissapointing comare to witcher 2. have bad controlling and terrible combat system and boring story/characters.

I prefer badass Anti hero type of main characters. they are best like Agent 47, Lo Wang, JC denton etc

 

[Casual Shinji]

I wish game didnot have insane amount of sex scenes. i never understand the point of them.

What insane amount of sex scenes does it have that you can't easily ignore? I've heard this arguement from you before, and again, if you don't go looking for it you're not gonna get it.

Anyway, yeah, I have this game. It's been sitting on my shelf for ages. I played about 5 minutes, got creeped out by how obsessed with 'how Yennifer smells' Geralt is. (Seriously, if my boyfriend lost me and went around describing how I smelled to strangers- that's a restraining order).

I think that's just noting that she has a peculiar smell, one that it might stand out amidst the general crowd of peasants. And I also figured that this being the "old timey days", actually smelling nice and not like total crap would be regarded as more special than it would now. Sort of like having clean hair or all your teeth.

 

[Dragonlayer]

Wait what? "The world is full of drop dead gorgeous female NPCs"? Did we play the same game? I understand beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that, but the only female characters I would consider conventionally attractive - I wasn't fussed about them myself, but my tastes are far more fantastical - are the potential romance interests of Yennifer, Triss and....errr....the redhead from Hearts of Stone. Now granted, that last character was written in a creepy fawning way, as every single man on Earth couldn't stop gushing about how she was the sexiest thing since sex, but all of them had their own personalities and were not just pin-up girls for the player's pleasure. The majority of female NPCs were pretty average in my opinion, with plenty of haggard, worn-out looking prostitutes and generally decrepit poor women (to go with the generally decrepit poor men), so I have no idea where you're getting this idea of the Northern Kingdoms being Land of the Babes.

As for the Bloody Baron, one of my personal favourite gaming questlines of all time, Inu-Kun already raised the point about the Baron's wife psychologically abusing him (a shell-shocked veteran who took to drink in order to cope with the horrors he'd seen in war, from which his temper arose). Obviously, the Baron murdering her lover in a fit of rage was not an appropriate response but the game makes it clear by that point their once loving marriage had degenerated into a battlefield - even at his most sympathetic, Geralt beats up the Baron and calls him a spineless bullying asshole (in so many words), with nary a mention of the wife's misdeeds other then the aforementioned "You two deserve each other". Before anyone leaps on me for totally condoning domestic abuse against women, I would like to point out the Baron and wife are not equally at fault, but do share fault and in the best conclusion to their arc, make the first tentative steps to recovery.

 

[Dragonlayer]

I already mentioned the main character, of course you don't want the main character ugly, the main character is you. And unless a female NPC is very old, or literally a monster, they tend to be quite attractive. At the very least miles over every single other male NPC.

Yeah but Geralt is ugly. That's one of the reasons I can't get into The Witcher.

Anyway, yeah, I have this game. It's been sitting on my shelf for ages. I played about 5 minutes, got creeped out by how obsessed with 'how Yennifer smells' Geralt is. (Seriously, if my boyfriend lost me and went around describing how I smelled to strangers- that's a restraining order).

I heard about the Baron questline, and that gives me even less reason to ever get round to playing the game more. I'm really not interested in a game that tries to make me sympathise with a domestic abuser. Noooo thanks.

Of course, if you describe anything as 'sexism' in a game, prepare to be drowned in a flood of guys telling you 'no there's no sexism here no sexism anywhere no no shhhh'.

I remember Geralt mentioning Yennifer's distinctive scent of lilac and gooseberries to strangers only twice, both times in the form of a question to discern her location; he's hardly "obsessed".

 

[Phasmal]

I remember Geralt mentioning Yennifer's distinctive scent of lilac and gooseberries to strangers only twice, both times in the form of a question to discern her location; he's hardly "obsessed".

Spoiler: Sure

While my original comment contained hyperbole, I'm still allowed to think it's weird and creepy and it still took me out of the experience for a moment.

 

[B-Cell_v1legacy]

What insane amount of sex scenes does it have that you can't easily ignore? I've heard this arguement from you before, and again, if you don't go looking for it you're not gonna get it.

near the start of game scene with yen.