I have to say, I used to think it was lame we couldnt murder questline NPCs but he has a good point there that changed my mind on that issue, if a dragon killed Ulfric while I was making my first walk to Whiterun I would be pissed! Which wasnt something that could have happened in Morrowind with npcs standing in one spot forever.
Anyway, Im just curious to see some rebuttals, I know theres a lot of people who call Morrowind the best ES ever here. I dont necessarily agree with this guy, but I think this is the first time Ive seen someone make a good argument against the dumbing down stuff.
i remember watching this a while ago and i thought it was interesting even if i didnt agree with everything he said.
i do fully agree with the killable NPCs bit. i remember in Oblivion theres an orc who's a steward to the vampire count. theres a major quest the orc is involved in so hes unkillable. however after you do that he can die and frequently does by accidently walking off a bridge (oblivion's AI being dumb as bricks) but theres a non major quest with this guy which if done after the main quest may not be do-able because he may have accidently killed himself.
in terms of faction membership i disagree with him. i think morrowind had the right idea but it could have implemented it a bit better.
again the quest marker situation worked for the most part on morrowind. there were a few hick ups (grrrr) and the journal system... and infact the entire UI in morrowind needed to be better laid out and redone. but its still in my opinion better then the quest marker arrows and try to find places in skyrim without using those... yh.
reduced NPC conversations.... yh i sort of agree. it would be much nice to have more of how it was in Oblivion then skyrim however.... but with more variety. then again one you think about it that is kind of asking for quite a bit
I'll watch the video then come back but until then, hw about this.
Fieldy409 said:
I have to say, I used to think it was lame we couldnt murder questline NPCs but he has a good point there that changed my mind on that issue, if a dragon killed Ulfric while I was making my first walk to Whiterun I would be pissed! Which wasnt something that could have happened in Morrowind with npcs standing in one spot forever.
This is a stupid reason. Really stupid. You can have an invincible flag on NPCs that's not applied for player attacks. You can do various other stuff as well to ensure that NPCs don't just all die while you're out picking flowers in the field. OK, you can do it in general, that is, it might be out of Bethesda's reach but it's still not an excuse - Bethesda can spend more money on system
architecture to allow it but it seems they are happy with things right now.
For the record, I like a lot of the changes and steamlining in later ES titles, I just don't think that particular argument is an argument at all, as it shows lack of perspective - it's saying "Yeah, it's good because X" where X is not really needed to begin with.
You can have an invincible flag on NPCs that's not applied for player attacks. You can do various other stuff as well to ensure that NPCs don't just all die while you're out picking flowers in the field.
Which could well rule out any attempts at creative kills, players could just be reduced to whacking them or throwing fireballs in their face. At that point they might as well be invincible.
OT- I've always been of two mind regarding the whole "dumbing down" versus "streamlining" argument (for the sake of this post dumbing down has a negative connotation and streamlining a positive one). On the one hand, some games (even Skyrim) just take out somethings that didn't work in previous games, rather than trying to improve them, which just strikes me as lazy (spell crafting anyone?). On the other hand, some things, like the "no murdering NPCs who are necessary to the plot" thing, are done for good reasons. Because even though you might want someone to be able to die randomly, it might frustrate the hell out of someone else. Also, with most games I don't really accept, "You can fix it with mods" as an excuse, and it might be a dangerous precedent, but honestly, the Elder Scrolls has one of the largest modding communities of any AAA series, and as such, it's pretty easy to turn something like this off if you wish.
You can have an invincible flag on NPCs that's not applied for player attacks. You can do various other stuff as well to ensure that NPCs don't just all die while you're out picking flowers in the field.
Which could well rule out any attempts at creative kills, players could just be reduced to whacking them or throwing fireballs in their face. At that point they might as well be invincible.
What if I told you you can do it? Also that you don't seem to be thinking over the point. What do you mean "creative kills" - leading them in the wilderness to be mauled by a bear? Important NPCs shouldn't be stupid, you know - you can easily have them decline your offer of visiting Savage Bloodthirsty Bear Meadow. They can also have guards and such. You can furthermore just plain reduce their number, so you can position them strategically in a more controlled environment where it makes sense they won't randomly die unless somebody made an attempt at their life. There you go.
I'm actually really wandering now, what creative kills you're talking about. I can think of only mauled by a bear type, where you make the NPC meat a hostile NPC - something I can't see an "important character" conceivably doing, or alternatively pushing them off a ledge - forcing them into a world hazard...in which case, the fact you forced them there (push, pull, shout, magic them off a ledge) should be enough to bypass the immortality flag.
OT: Watched the video. The guy makes good points but sort of misses some points either. He's talking about the failings of Morrowind and I agree with him - these are failings, the steps taken he outlines do improve upon the ideas. And yet
TheCommanders said:
On the one hand, some games (even Skyrim) just take out somethings that didn't work in previous games, rather than trying to improve them
Let's see - factions. I agree with him about the failings of Morrowind. But I feel there were steps back taken in later titles that he didn't touch upon - becoming an archmage with barely knowing any magic, anyone? I think in Oblivion you can easily do that - you just need to use 3-4 scrolls or so. In Skyrim there isn't really a pretence of your skill - you're chosen because...you're the chosen, that's it.
Then there is the quest arrow. Oh the quest arrow. His argument was that in Morrowind there exist NPCs which give you very confusing or plain wrong directions. And that is a fact
I didn't remember the NPC he showed, but I do remember spending three hours following directions that barely made sense only to find out that the NPC could have just as well been speaking in dream logic when describing the path. And to make it worse, the directions were to a cave on a small island - there wasn't a lot to actually get wrong. Then there was the first time I started the Morag Tong questline - I never finished it then (I can't remember if I ever did) because the directions to find one of the targets were "go to the middle of nowhere, then head to the middle of nowhere, turn left at the other middle of nowhere and the target should be somewhere up ahead. Maybe".
At any rate, there is an easy solution - have better directions. Or even just add map markers - that's something Daggerfall did beautifully - you're tasked to go in the middle of nowhere and you can just ask random townsfolk how to get there, since it's conceivable they'll know - they would give you directions, it that doesn't work they can give you other set of directions and finally if you press the issue, they'll just mark it on your map, or at least mark the closest landmark and you just need to head east from it or something. You don't have a quest marker now. Or offer both. This is something Skyrim completely dropped the ball at - you can turn off quest markers but you cannot know where to go at that point, as your journal just says "I was told where to go", sometimes pretty much literally. The guy's argument was that you can't have both a quest arrow and no quest arrow which is false as the many other quests of Morrowind show - there are just few that are confusing, it's not nearly all. Moreover, there are mods for Skyrim that do add explanations about your target location in your journal, further proving the guy wrong on that point.
NPC and dialogues. OK, this point is confusing. Not because it's wrong necessarily but because it's correct and yet not correct. As I said confusing. Actually, I think it all comes down to exactly how the guy's points are wrong. Erm, and aren't. OK, OK, here it goes - he makes valid criticism against Morrowind. I repeat that yet again. But that's what he does - criticism against Morrowind, while the points he is making are about the evolution of the gameplay aspects. And here is how his arguments go goes more specifically - "Morrowind's dialogue is generic. The dialogue in Skyrim is not. Therefore, we shouldn't have any of what Morrowind had because it had bad aspects". Criticism, praise, praise be praised because of the criticism. It's not even discussing, you know, improving on Morrowind's system but outright dismisses it. Also, a lot of his argument is built upon "Well, it's not actually done with casualisation in mind" - erm, yes, it's not, that doesn't mean it's a reason enough to dismiss the opposite point. I'm not sure how one can claim "There is less dialogue" is somehow because of "causal gamers" (ugh, hate using that word). However, having less dialogue is criticism I have with newer ES titles. Most notably Oblivion, since it just axed large amounts of conversation in favour of some big name VA repeating the rest over and over again. It's like Morrowind but the genericness of the dialogue and the NPCs is drilled into you. Skyrim did better with actually interesting characters, as the guy also mentioned. And yet, Morrowind is not entirely worse than Skyrim - it had its more memorable NPCs - the sheer number of the total NPCs means that even if the interesting ones are a smaller portion, there is still a good amount of them. It's not quantity over quality - no, however it means that having a lot of dialogue and a lot of NPCs is not entirely a negative thing.
The man starts off going full on troll and then proceeds to justify gutting features on the basis they weren't perfected in previous games...
I really have no rebuttals because this is the sort of childish nonsense I would debated with my mates in elementary school (I believe you call it that), so quite frankly I'm too old for this shit.
Honestly I don't think Skyrim is dumbed down, I don't think because combat relies on numbers and virtual dice rolls based on armor/skill/buffs is more intelligent than using your own reflexes and such to beat an enemy. I also think the stat based combat in first person isn't great for immersion when it translates to you pressing up against an enemy and hitting the attack button quickly while the game decides if you block/dodge/hit. I do recall someone telling me combat was dumbed down because there was no durability, yes I felt endlessly immersed and challenged when I could stop at any point even MID combat and repair my gear by slapping the mouse on the worn equipment.
I don't know Skyrim isn't perfect, none of the TES games are, Morrowind has by far the most interesting areas,scenery, but the combat just takes me out and bores me while in Skyrim I'm interested and I'm actively fighting. (yes there's ways to break it due to dumb AI but that's if you exploit it).
But it boils down to opinion, personally I think Morrowind has awesome stuff going for it, so does skyrim and skyrim happens to take the cake because of superior combat. Oblivion takes the cake in being the most bland and ugly between the two, least interesting designs on armor and weapons, characters look mishapen and strange and bla bla bla.
You can have an invincible flag on NPCs that's not applied for player attacks. You can do various other stuff as well to ensure that NPCs don't just all die while you're out picking flowers in the field.
Which could well rule out any attempts at creative kills, players could just be reduced to whacking them or throwing fireballs in their face. At that point they might as well be invincible.
What if I told you you can do it? Also that you don't seem to be thinking over the point. What do you mean "creative kills" - leading them in the wilderness to be mauled by a bear? Important NPCs shouldn't be stupid, you know - you can easily have them decline your offer of visiting Savage Bloodthirsty Bear Meadow. They can also have guards and such. You can furthermore just plain reduce their number, so you can position them strategically in a more controlled environment where it makes sense they won't randomly die unless somebody made an attempt at their life. There you go.
I'm actually really wandering now, what creative kills you're talking about. I can think of only mauled by a bear type, where you make the NPC meat a hostile NPC - something I can't see an "important character" conceivably doing, or alternatively pushing them off a ledge - forcing them into a world hazard...in which case, the fact you forced them there (push, pull, shout, magic them off a ledge) should be enough to bypass the immortality flag.
Thats all well and fine but we all know how well Bethesda actually put these games together, if they tried a complicated essential character system it would be full of bugs. Defenestration and such should be a viable way of disposing of characters, luring them into traps and things or getting them away from guards and getting a stealth kill is fun or. We agree that it should be part of the game.
I read a great saying about Skyrim, its the size of the Ocean with the depth of a paddling pool. I still like it, the world is beautiful and it had some great characters. Although the main story is a little bland the Deadric quests are brilliant and very creative.
Less commands, simpler interface tailored to controllers, magic system got much worse, quest markers, simpler leveling system with no choices or even classes now in Skyrim, "dumbing down" is a dumb term but simplified? I believe so.
Morrowind on the other hand had terrible cringe-worthy combat, so none is perfect either but oblivion and skyrim could have been far better, their stock versions anyway.
How is the quest tracker system in Skyrim not a stupid, terrible and utter atrocious idea and implemented poorly?
There is basically no quest info given, at all, just "Go fetch this item here, we have no idea where it is. Probably in this region. Fortunately it has GPS in it."
Sadly, you can't complete anything in the game without it because no other info is given.
His argument about "This lady here, ya? Her quest was broken!" Skyrims "genius" quest tracker system was more wrong than right the first couple of months that shit was launched.
As far as nostalgia goes. I started playing Morrowind and Oblivion for the first time this year. Putting a decent 50+ hours into each of them.
*dies laughing* S0rry but you can not show anything to prove that Oblivion is not a dumbed down Morrowind and its almost as true that Skyrim is a dumbed down Oblivion.
Just because they they added on acouple things dose not mean that the 50 other things they removed make the game better. I mean just look at the DLC for SKyrim only 3? Why did Fallout 3 get twice as much?
I never got the hate for streamlining a game and making it more open. I mean, lets be honest, the levelling system in Morrowind was bad, it took some people at least 3 attempts to create a character that suited them in Morrowind and Oblivion, and I distinctly remember using a bow close range (as in directly in front of me) and missing...even though the screens image showed the arrow going directly through his chest. Is Skyrim more simple? Yes, it is. Is that a bad thing? No, not really.
Interesting, how New Vegas went in the exact opposite direction with regards to Fallout 3. And I thought it was a great element of the game. And the fact that I couldn't massacre the Thieves' Guild (when I could kill the Dark Brotherhood... through a quest), or kill Maven Black-Briar, or the Silver-Blood dudes, or just goddamn anybody I wish (I guess I wouldn't want to kill the kids, annoying as they may be) was really, really annoying. The things I did in Skyrim felt... meaningless. The only thing that ever changed anything was the Civil War, and even that was an exceedingly minimal change. I know it would take way too much effort to fix all that... but maaan, I dunno. I guess TES was always a bit like that. Just less so back in Morrowind.
I also hated the removal of the attributes system. And a couple skills. Like Mysticism (rolled into Alteration, I know) and Acrobatics (useful for sequence breaking, now impossible). Having an attribute system would've probably helped alleviate the weakness of Werewolfism and Vampirism too, assuming they get like strength and agility bonuses on top of what they have in Skyrim.
Skyrim was great but slightly too simple in many aspects. Morrowind was far too dense but it was very rich and hardcore so I can see why people like it.
I personally think a modded Oblivion hits the sweet spot between the two.
Heh, I've actually been subscribed to this guy for quite a while now. His Oblivion Let's Play is absolutely epic, one of the best LP's I've ever seen, in fact. Unfortunately he's said that he'll be stopping LP'ing for whatever reason...Quite saddened by this. Very sad indeed...
OT:
I'd have to agree with a lot of what he says. Though to be honest I have no nostalgia for Morrowind, I only started playing it a small while ago.
The big thing he says, though, is whilst Skyrim and Oblivion make a lot of improvements over Morrowind, They are by no means *Ideal*. A lot of people seem to miss this, and think the improvements he's pointing out are, in his mind, perfect, and cannot be improved. Which couldn't be further from the truth.
Personally, I think Skyrim is most definitely better than the other TES games in various ways. However, all of the previous TES games seem to have a few very cool things about them that DIDN'T transfer over to Skyrim. For instance, Daggerfall's climbing system, Morrowind's amazing architecture and magic system, Oblivion's...Erm...Yeah, well you get the point.
None of these games are perfect, but Skyrim has gotten the closest (For me, anyway), especially with mods...
Also, the guy who did that video also made a part 2, in which he goes into further analysis.
How is the quest tracker system in Skyrim not a stupid, terrible and utter atrocious idea and implemented poorly?
There is basically no quest info given, at all, just "Go fetch this item here, we have no idea where it is. Probably in this region. Fortunately it has GPS in it."
Sadly, you can't complete anything in the game without it because no other info is given.
His argument about "This lady here, ya? Her quest was broken!" Skyrims "genius" quest tracker system was more wrong than right the first couple of months that shit was launched.
As far as nostalgia goes. I started playing Morrowind and Oblivion for the first time this year. Putting a decent 50+ hours into each of them.
It depends on the quest. there are certain quests -- such as The Dark Brotherhood Quests -- where the dialogue itself will provide you the quest locations and such, but the journal entry will be extremely sparse. Without quest markers, you're suddenly forced to memorize quest details.
Then there are the quests where the journal entries are relatively detailed, but the dialogue is generic "do this mission for me" crap.
My point? It's not even poor design, just shoddy programming, as opposed to any actual malicious "dumbing down" as many a Morrowind fan is wont to do. Not so much a "dumbing down" as it is a lack of internal consistency/QA. Then again this is Bethesda we're talking about.
As for Morrowind, I gave it about 7 hours last year, but just couldn't get into it thanks to the hit-or-miss combat and the torturously slow speed. The journal didn't help, as parsing that data for quests involves either searching for it alphabetically or by date.
And before anyone call me a filthy casual, I'm a PC gamer, I've been playing PC games since the goddamned 80's, I've played tabletop RPGs, played Deus Ex to completion twice, logged over 500 hours on Skyrim, played 40 hours of every Mass Effect game, and I've probably sunk more than $3,000 on my computer in the last 2 years alone. So yeah, I'm heavily invested in gaming, both figuratively and literally.
I agree with the video. I preferred Skyrim so much more over Oblivion... IN fact, Oblivion is probably one my my least favourite game of all times- this is coming from someone who states Bethesda as their favourite game developer.
Morrowind was the first one i played, and they have been getting dumber from Oblivion to Skyrim. In everything from the cultures, weapons, armour, stories and quests. Morrowind feels more real. Different cultures in the different towns and cities. Different areas from woods, deserts etc. Granted Oblivion/Skyrim are limited based on the area they are set, one being more forest and the other snow based. But the lack of weapon and armour is stupid.
The thing i loved about Morrowind, was the secret stories. Where exploring paid off. Where you find a basement Daedra temple or the guy trapped by scamps. The zombie guy under Vivec. Its those little snippets of life that made the overall game awesome....even though the controls, fighting and mission control aspects sucked.
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