So imagine this for an opening scene...

[Wendigo172]

From a first person perspective, you look over the remnants of a broken down, sleazy bar. A bystander cowers behind a pool table, broken glass litters the place, and there a small fire in a trash bin by an open emergency exit. As you are huffing and gasping and generally catching your breath, this dude appears, right? You know the type. The sort of man who rides a motorcycle, wears a black leather vest with a heavy metal motif on the back, and picks fights with people physically weaker than him on a Saturday night, just to boost his own lacking self-confidence. So, he gloats for a bit. Talks about what you were thinking, coming into his bar, and how he?s going to beat your ass until the sun comes up. Then, he winds up for a great big punch, and promptly knocks your lights out. The image goes fuzzy, the colour fades, and you fall like a chopped tree. Then, as you see the world from a sideways, ground-level perspective, the man kneels in front of you with a much more amiable expression on his face, and says, ?Well, that didn?t go very well, did it? Let?s try again.?

Pause

Rewind effect.

-until the sun comes up. Then, he winds up for a great big punch, and promptly, the world goes into slow-mo, the focal depth plummets, and you see a fist and an arm coming against you, connected to the very same man who clobbered you before. At this point, you?re given hints on how to fight, targeting body parts and attempting punches, throws, block, kicks and take-downs. This is a short summary of a game concept I thought up while trying to figure out if there were a way to make a first-person hand-to-hand fighting game interesting to play. It would feature a slow-motion effect which could be triggered at critical points during play, an upgrade system for punch strength, speed, endurance and the like. It would also feature a create-a-move mode, where you create one or many signature moves which you can utilize with a simple button push.

Thoughts? Ideas? Is this a horrible idea? Why/why not?

 

[rokkolpo]

Sounds awesome, good for immersion.
Not sure how a hand to hand fighting game can work.(in a 1st person perspective that is)
Since it's clearly not meant to be a stealth game.

Still an interesting intro.

 

[JaymesFogarty]

It sounds like a good idea. But however good it is without a dedicated team of programmers, and a solid art direction, it's not going anywhere. I spent 1 and a half years trying the create Pacman using C++, before realising that I was just not going anywhere.

As an idea though, it sounds very good. It's always hard for developers to blend tutorials with good action sequences, (although Uncharted 2 did very well at that) and that sets the scene and makes it interesting enough for the player.

 

[Wendigo172]

Oh, don't get me wrong, Jaymes. This is just a spur-of-the-moment idea I'm throwing out there. I'm in no way inclined toward any sort of game making other than perhaps writing RPG modules. I don't think I could be creative enough on command to do that sort of stuff.

 

[The Cheezy One]

Sounds good, a rewind time tutorial!

I've been thinking of writing a game and having a friend make it, but it's hard. One thing that seems to happen recently is this - games put you in the middle of the action from the off. In ModWar, you were back in England. There was a feeling of security, which drops into a one sided fight, and then open conflict against a disadvantaged enemy, eventually skewing the other way entirely.
Mod War 2, you are already in the field, and you start at part two and move on.
Black ops, you start literally in the middle of the story, and I have to stop now before I quote Yahtzee and call it my opinion, a bugbear of mine.

 

[SomeLameStuff]

Sounds like a good idea, but a first person fighting game? That'll be pretty damn hard to pull off, like what if you do a spinning kick?

 

[elbrandino]

I'd play a game like that. Sounds like a really fun thing to play in a game.

 

[Wendigo172]

Sounds like a good idea, but a first person fighting game? That'll be pretty damn hard to pull off, like what if you do a spinning kick?

I'm no martial artist myself, but I imagine you'd want to keep eye contact with the opponent at all times, so you would just look at him while you're rotating, and when you're about to turn your back, quickly rotate your head 180 degrees to the other side and continue with your kick. Think like a ballet dancer doing spins. Their head stays perfectly still while their bodies rotate, for most of the time, which is why they don't get dizzy. This might be enhancing the rhythmic element you can have in a great fight scene even more, as you're effectively adding a "beat" to the rhythm.

 

[SomeLameStuff]

I'm no martial artist myself, but I imagine you'd want to keep eye contact with the opponent at all times, so you would just look at him while you're rotating, and when you're about to turn your back, quickly rotate your head 180 degrees to the other side and continue with your kick. Think like a ballet dancer doing spins. Their head stays perfectly still while their bodies rotate, for most of the time, which is why they don't get dizzy. This might be enhancing the rhythmic element you can have in a great fight scene even more, as you're effectively adding a "beat" to the rhythm.

True, but even so, the spinning camera is bound to make some people (read: ME) sick.

Also another thing I just thought of, what about distance? It can be a bit hard to judge how far the target is from a first person perspective. Also would have to take the torso into account as well.

I think I see why most devs stick to third person fighting games...

 

[Danceofmasks]

Sounds like a good idea, but a first person fighting game? That'll be pretty damn hard to pull off, like what if you do a spinning kick?

I'm no martial artist myself, but I imagine you'd want to keep eye contact with the opponent at all times, so you would just look at him while you're rotating, and when you're about to turn your back, quickly rotate your head 180 degrees to the other side and continue with your kick. Think like a ballet dancer doing spins. Their head stays perfectly still while their bodies rotate, for most of the time, which is why they don't get dizzy. This might be enhancing the rhythmic element you can have in a great fight scene even more, as you're effectively adding a "beat" to the rhythm.

If you're just fighting 1 person, maybe.
However, that's how NOT to learn martial arts properly. You are supposed to be aware of your surroundings at all times, in addition to knowing what your opponent's entire body is doing.
Of course, you can take cues from your opponent's techniques .. for instance, paying a disproportionate amount of attention to the rear shoulder sort of works vs a practitioner of (most) karate, but not against wing chun.


On the subject of games, though .. there have been games with first person melee, with varying degrees of success.

Oblivion has first person slasher elements, but frankly I'm only mentioning it as a reference point, since it has AWFUL first person melee.

Zeno Clash has passable mechanics, but falls victim to the one move syndrome. Why bother trying to block & kick, or dodge & punch, or wearing down your opponent's defence with heavy attacks, etc. when 1 or 2 hits with the almighty elbow stuns them .. which sets up a grab (+3 knees & throw) for mega damage?

Dark Messiah of Might and Magic has similar issues, too ... while defence is actually necessary here (and it's not easy, 'cos you have to actively aim your block in the direction of the incoming weapon), it's all about knockdowns. Whether you start by landing a stunning attack or simply hurling a barrel, the damage multiplier from impaling a prone opponent is so huge most other tactics are simply too weak.
Of course, with the ridiculous level design, you can get by just booting your foes into walls of spikes or bonfires or water or some other fatal hazard ... that just happen to be everywhere.

Still, I really dig the Dark Messiah system. I'm not recommending it, though. The moronic story and terrible level design makes it a bad game.

 

[Wendigo172]

I'm no martial artist myself, but I imagine you'd want to keep eye contact with the opponent at all times, so you would just look at him while you're rotating, and when you're about to turn your back, quickly rotate your head 180 degrees to the other side and continue with your kick. Think like a ballet dancer doing spins. Their head stays perfectly still while their bodies rotate, for most of the time, which is why they don't get dizzy. This might be enhancing the rhythmic element you can have in a great fight scene even more, as you're effectively adding a "beat" to the rhythm.

True, but even so, the spinning camera is bound to make some people (read: ME) sick.

Also another thing I just thought of, what about distance? It can be a bit hard to judge how far the target is from a first person perspective. Also would have to take the torso into account as well.

I think I see why most devs stick to third person fighting games...

I agree. Still, it's a fun thought experiment, and would look pretty cool if executed correctly, if not feel or play very well.

I'm no martial artist myself, but I imagine you'd want to keep eye contact with the opponent at all times, so you would just look at him while you're rotating, and when you're about to turn your back, quickly rotate your head 180 degrees to the other side and continue with your kick. Think like a ballet dancer doing spins. Their head stays perfectly still while their bodies rotate, for most of the time, which is why they don't get dizzy. This might be enhancing the rhythmic element you can have in a great fight scene even more, as you're effectively adding a "beat" to the rhythm.

If you're just fighting 1 person, maybe.
However, that's how NOT to learn martial arts properly. You are supposed to be aware of your surroundings at all times, in addition to knowing what your opponent's entire body is doing.
Of course, you can take cues from your opponent's techniques .. for instance, paying a disproportionate amount of attention to the rear shoulder sort of works vs a practitioner of (most) karate, but not against wing chun.

That's a valid couple of points, but that's still en par to piloting a plane or operating heavy construction machinery, both of which you can easily do in many FPS games. What I'm saying is, there is room for simplifying. Perhaps something as simple and cheesy as making sure you only ever fight one person at a time, à la some early kung fu flicks where the baddies predictably line up for the hero to one-hit punch into a daze. Also, while reading the opponent in a fight is very difficult to say the least, visual cues could be implemented, or you could make sure he telegraphs his moves ahead of time, while still keeping it challenging. Either that, or one could go for the exact feeling of being ganged up on by a band of thugs. Some people like games that are brutally challenging as well, of course.

On the subject of games, though .. there have been games with first person melee, with varying degrees of success.

Oblivion has first person slasher elements, but frankly I'm only mentioning it as a reference point, since it has AWFUL first person melee.

Zeno Clash has passable mechanics, but falls victim to the one move syndrome. Why bother trying to block & kick, or dodge & punch, or wearing down your opponent's defence with heavy attacks, etc. when 1 or 2 hits with the almighty elbow stuns them .. which sets up a grab (+3 knees & throw) for mega damage?

Dark Messiah of Might and Magic has similar issues, too ... while defence is actually necessary here (and it's not easy, 'cos you have to actively aim your block in the direction of the incoming weapon), it's all about knockdowns. Whether you start by landing a stunning attack or simply hurling a barrel, the damage multiplier from impaling a prone opponent is so huge most other tactics are simply too weak.
Of course, with the ridiculous level design, you can get by just booting your foes into walls of spikes or bonfires or water or some other fatal hazard ... that just happen to be everywhere.

Still, I really dig the Dark Messiah system. I'm not recommending it, though. The moronic story and terrible level design makes it a bad game.

I agree about Dark Messiah. The combat element of it is really good when it is good, but a lot of it is ruined by either drops of doom and AI stupid enough to be standing right in front of them, or just such an ample amount of environmental hazards that all you need to do is to run around, occasionally kicking something over. The chandelier in Menelag's manor comes to mind. the thing just wouldn't stop swinging! I must have kicked over half a dozen black guards into that thing. Still, good times. "I've got you now!" *half a tonne of wax and steel comes tumbling down*

 

[Danceofmasks]

I must have kicked over half a dozen black guards into that thing. Still, good times. "I've got you now!" *half a tonne of wax and steel comes tumbling down*

Oh man .. that stage is so annoying.
Not 'cos it's difficult, but 'cos at that point there hasn't been enough XP to get my spell combos up (since I prefer magic builds).

If you're interested, I uploaded a zero death run (on hardcore difficulty) to youtube .. I think about 2 years ago, don't remember.
To date, I think the build I used there is the most reliable, if somewhat boring.

 

[Wendigo172]

I heard about that in the "most annoying enemy" thread a couple of days ago. I probably should check that out, as it's been years since I last beat it.

 

[teisjm]

I think it'd be messy in first person.

think about an FPS game of your choice, now think of how annoying it is to keep track of people trying to melee you (disregard games with insta-kill melee, cause you just die fast) runnign around you so close to you that you have to turn around all the time.

First person works well for shooters, cause you have some distanceto what you need to pay attention to, but up-close first person has a problem of a somewhat limited view due to tv's and monitors not beeing panorama screens, and they narrow your field of vision a lot compared to real life.