Status of Batman in the popular culture.

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Mrkowi

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It's no secret that Batman is the most well-known and beloved superhero.
Not only in comics, movies and gaming, but popular culture as a whole.

There is a obvious explanation to this state of affairs, almost every piece
of entartainment Batman was in was a commercial , and very often a critical
success.

But i wonder, how long will it last ?

In the past, role of "the most badass person ever"(or however people describe him)
was taken by characters such as Chuck Norris, or Boba Fet.
But their "domination" faded over the years.

Do anyone thinks Batman will eventually share their fate ?
 

Shinsei-J

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Apr 28, 2011
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Well yes, eventually but I think he's still got some drive in him, IF they release more quality goods.
It really depends on how far the IP owners want to milk it.
Even if he fades into obscurity he can once again "rise".
It's because Bruce Wayne's story can be relatable in any time period and due to the nature of comics he can have near infinite reboots.
So I'd say he's going to be around for awhile.
 

SmoothGlover

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That and the fact that Batman has such a wide array of villains that are equally (and in some cases a lot more) interesting. I think with Batman, its not just that individual character. Its the associated package.

Edit: Just realised I didn't really add much to the discussion. In answer to the actual OP, I think its fair enough to say that Batman will probably stick around in some shape or another for many years to come. At the very least I think it will always be a big name in Comics, if not pop culture.
 

bastardofmelbourne

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I don't know if the OP is aware, but they've been making Batman films since 1989 and he's been a pop culture badass since at least the early 1980s, when comic writers stopped writing him like Adam West and started writing him like a terrifying ninja.

And even in that 1989-2012 cut-out he's had a dorky period (the Schumacher films) and recovered...so, no. I don't think Batman is going to stop appealing to people. He's a long runner.

The way I see it only two things will make people hate Batman;

- Grade-W (Wolverine) overexposure;
- a large-scale shift in social consciousness against wealthy crime-fighting vigilante ninjas.

Considering that even Wolverine managed to survive the first one (he's getting a new film soon) and the second one is almost impossible (there are no wealthy vigilante ninjas!), I think Batman's pretty stable.
 

aba1

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I would argue superman is larger on a world wide scale but I don't feel like getting into a pissing contest.
OT:
As what others are saying Batman has maintained popularity for generations even in the mainstream so I doubt he is going anywhere fast.
 

Scarim Coral

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The only time I would see Batman losing his popularity is when comicbook itself has become less popular aswell (as in no longer mainstream).
 

AgentCooper

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j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
Marketing.

With the right kind of marketing department, you can make anything popular. Hence why a wealthy billionaire playboy captain of industry is able to to put on a mask, go round beating up criminals (generally of the working classes), apparently to defend the same laws that he so readily breaks himself... and this guy is a cultural icon?

It's all to do with catharsis, I think. People don't like to admit that ideas like crime, justice and the law are actually very complicated subjects. For the most part, it's too difficult for a lot of people to think that crime happens for various reasons, not all of them unavoidable, and that definitions of justice and law are based on the social notions of any given period, rather than being based on objective 'truth'. As far as a lot of people are concerned, criminals are scum who deserve to be punished, and Batman is a character who dishes out punishment by going round and beating the everloving shit out of them. Moreso than practically any other superhero, in fact. Most other superheroes are defined by their weird alien sub-plots, and crazy science-fiction overtones. Batman is the one notable superhero (honourable mention to The Punisher) whose raison d'etre is beating up criminals, not aliens or robots or interdimensional beings. People enjoy vicariously watching other people get punished for the wrongs they believe they've done, and Batman does that in the same way Dirty Harry does (if less lethally). No bureaucracy of law or due process, simply the justice of a righteously flung fist cracking into someone's ribs.

I personally find the concept of Batman pretty abhorrent. He's an ineffective hypocrite who refuses try and real effort to change Gotham for the better. He claims to want to uphold law and justice, yet his methods are illegal, and he works in direct opposition to Gotham's appointed police service. And he claims to want to stop crime in Gotham, yet he has never done anything to significantly reduce its crime rates. Ask anyone who's studied sociology, and they'll say that if you want to remove crime, you need to remove the causes of crime. The vast majority of muggings, robberies and burglaries are caused by poverty. People turn to crime when they feel they have no other option to get by.

We can see that Gotham has incredible wealth inequality. Does Bruce Wayne ever try and tackle this? Does he ever think that perhaps, by trying to reduce the wealth gap and bring more Gotham citizens out of poverty, he may remove the very incentive for which so many citizens become criminals in the first place? Fuck no. He's content to remain a billionaire captain of industry, profiting from the exploitative practises of his corporation, so long as it allows him to buy yet more expensive toys with which to beat up people on the street.

Batman's a psycho who uses his parents death as an excuse to act out on his own sociopathic tendencies. A large number of the villains he fights against became criminals directly because of his vigilantism (the Joker, Two-Face), while the low level mooks are working-class people forced to take desperate measures to get by simply because of how low Gotham has sunk them into poverty. He hasn't, to my knowledge, instigated any major campaigns to reduce the wealth gap, and just as importantly, he hasn't launched any campaign for prison reform, focusing on rehabilitating and educating prisoners to allow them to become functional members of society. A billionaire campaigning for social change and reform is someone I'd argue is trying to fight crime. A man who dresses as a bat and goes round punching people is a mentally unstable psycho.

What really galls me is the complete dishonesty with which the comics portray his actions. Perhaps Wayne has some philanthropic ventures on the go. I wouldn't know, as if he does, the comics give them only a cursory glance. Even worse, the man claims to have a 'no-kill' philosophy, yet the sheer brutality with which he beats up criminals means that he must, by this point, have killed someone.

Talk to anyone who works in an A&E ward, and they'll tell you how lethal even one wrong punch can be. People have died because their stomach collapsed from a wrongly thrown punch. People have died because someone broke their ribs, only to then have one or both of their lungs punctured. People have died from being punched in the face, and having complications from brain damage subsequently appear. People have died from being kicked in the back, and having their spinal column shattered. People have died simply from being punched, then breaking their neck on the pavement, or a wrongly placed table ledge, or a concrete stair.

Batman is a character who is supposed to be as strong as it is possible for a mortal man to be. The idea that he can go round beating up people as much as he likes, and because he doesn't use a gun or bullets they'll never die, is a dishonest one. In real life, Batman would have dozens of deaths on his hands now, people dying from complications from the injuries he inflicted on them.

When even famous comic writers like Alan Moore end up showing contempt for the sort of vigilantism that Batman indulges in, I can't bring myself to support the character. His entire appeal lies in a base form of vicarious thrill, the sort that comes from boiling down complex sociological problems into 'good' vs 'evil' binary dilemmas that can be easily fixed with enough punching. The fact that Rorscach is arguably the most deranged, violent and disturbed character in Watchmen is a damning indictment of everything that is wrong with the sort of vigilantism championed by Batman.

I told you this before but they have the Wayne Foundation to help the needy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayne_Enterprises

Depends on what version you read or watch of Batman. Some versions of Batman describe the police force just as corrupt as the villains he brings in. Bruce knows he has made mistakes working in the line of duty and tries everyday to try and correct these. Not everything surrounded by Batman is supposed to make it out as everything he does is right and when he has just as many fans of his work and critics of his methods. Has Batman done well with Gotham? Yes, You could say so. Has he also screwed up during his work? absolutely.
 

Little Woodsman

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eyepatchdreams said:
j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
Marketing.

With the right kind of marketing department, you can make anything popular. Hence why a wealthy billionaire playboy captain of industry is able to to put on a mask, go round beating up criminals (generally of the working classes), apparently to defend the same laws that he so readily breaks himself... and this guy is a cultural icon?

It's all to do with catharsis, I think. People don't like to admit that ideas like crime, justice and the law are actually very complicated subjects. For the most part, it's too difficult for a lot of people to think that crime happens for various reasons, not all of them unavoidable, and that definitions of justice and law are based on the social notions of any given period, rather than being based on objective 'truth'. As far as a lot of people are concerned, criminals are scum who deserve to be punished, and Batman is a character who dishes out punishment by going round and beating the everloving shit out of them. Moreso than practically any other superhero, in fact. Most other superheroes are defined by their weird alien sub-plots, and crazy science-fiction overtones. Batman is the one notable superhero (honourable mention to The Punisher) whose raison d'etre is beating up criminals, not aliens or robots or interdimensional beings. People enjoy vicariously watching other people get punished for the wrongs they believe they've done, and Batman does that in the same way Dirty Harry does (if less lethally). No bureaucracy of law or due process, simply the justice of a righteously flung fist cracking into someone's ribs.

I personally find the concept of Batman pretty abhorrent. He's an ineffective hypocrite who refuses try and real effort to change Gotham for the better. He claims to want to uphold law and justice, yet his methods are illegal, and he works in direct opposition to Gotham's appointed police service. And he claims to want to stop crime in Gotham, yet he has never done anything to significantly reduce its crime rates. Ask anyone who's studied sociology, and they'll say that if you want to remove crime, you need to remove the causes of crime. The vast majority of muggings, robberies and burglaries are caused by poverty. People turn to crime when they feel they have no other option to get by.

We can see that Gotham has incredible wealth inequality. Does Bruce Wayne ever try and tackle this? Does he ever think that perhaps, by trying to reduce the wealth gap and bring more Gotham citizens out of poverty, he may remove the very incentive for which so many citizens become criminals in the first place? Fuck no. He's content to remain a billionaire captain of industry, profiting from the exploitative practises of his corporation, so long as it allows him to buy yet more expensive toys with which to beat up people on the street.

Batman's a psycho who uses his parents death as an excuse to act out on his own sociopathic tendencies. A large number of the villains he fights against became criminals directly because of his vigilantism (the Joker, Two-Face), while the low level mooks are working-class people forced to take desperate measures to get by simply because of how low Gotham has sunk them into poverty. He hasn't, to my knowledge, instigated any major campaigns to reduce the wealth gap, and just as importantly, he hasn't launched any campaign for prison reform, focusing on rehabilitating and educating prisoners to allow them to become functional members of society. A billionaire campaigning for social change and reform is someone I'd argue is trying to fight crime. A man who dresses as a bat and goes round punching people is a mentally unstable psycho.

What really galls me is the complete dishonesty with which the comics portray his actions. Perhaps Wayne has some philanthropic ventures on the go. I wouldn't know, as if he does, the comics give them only a cursory glance. Even worse, the man claims to have a 'no-kill' philosophy, yet the sheer brutality with which he beats up criminals means that he must, by this point, have killed someone.

Talk to anyone who works in an A&E ward, and they'll tell you how lethal even one wrong punch can be. People have died because their stomach collapsed from a wrongly thrown punch. People have died because someone broke their ribs, only to then have one or both of their lungs punctured. People have died from being punched in the face, and having complications from brain damage subsequently appear. People have died from being kicked in the back, and having their spinal column shattered. People have died simply from being punched, then breaking their neck on the pavement, or a wrongly placed table ledge, or a concrete stair.

Batman is a character who is supposed to be as strong as it is possible for a mortal man to be. The idea that he can go round beating up people as much as he likes, and because he doesn't use a gun or bullets they'll never die, is a dishonest one. In real life, Batman would have dozens of deaths on his hands now, people dying from complications from the injuries he inflicted on them.

When even famous comic writers like Alan Moore end up showing contempt for the sort of vigilantism that Batman indulges in, I can't bring myself to support the character. His entire appeal lies in a base form of vicarious thrill, the sort that comes from boiling down complex sociological problems into 'good' vs 'evil' binary dilemmas that can be easily fixed with enough punching. The fact that Rorscach is arguably the most deranged, violent and disturbed character in Watchmen is a damning indictment of everything that is wrong with the sort of vigilantism championed by Batman.


I told you this before but they have the Wayne Foundation to help the needy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayne_Enterprises

Depends on what version you read or watch of Batman. Some versions of Batman describe the police force just as corrupt as the villains he brings in. Bruce knows he has made mistakes working in the line of duty and tries everyday to try and correct these. Not everything surrounded by Batman is supposed to make it out as everything he does is right and when he has just as many fans of his work and critics of his methods. Has Batman done well with Gotham? Yes, You could say so. Has he also screwed up during his work? absolutely.
Plus all the jobs he creates as one of those horrible vile 'captains of industry'.
There are in fact good companies that take good care of their employees, and it is pointed out time and time again
that Wayne enterprises is among those.
Remember the BTAS episode where he actually sought out the man he had pursued when that man had
taken a job as a lookout for one of the Joker's capers and gave the man a job as a security guard at WE?
And then every time he went to the facility where the man worked, stopped and asked about his kid, and then
set up a fund to send the man's kid to college? Yeah, wish my boss was that horrible.
 

AgentCooper

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j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
eyepatchdreams said:
I told you this before but they have the Wayne Foundation to help the needy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayne_Enterprises
The Wayne Foundation is a token effort thrown in by writers in an effort to make Batman not look like a fascist, without actually having to do any real writing in order to do so.

How many Batman stories actually feature the Wayne Foundation? How many writers have actually focused on Bruce Wayne's efforts to use philanthropic means to combat crime? How many writers have actually looked at or explored just how succesful such an endeavour could be? Not even a fraction compared to the amount who have simply written more stories where Batman solves crime through yet more judicial use of violence.

It's self-serving power fantasy at best, with nothing more than a token effort made to please the 'left-wing hippies'. If writers were serious in exploring Batman's effect on crime, the Wayne Foundation would actually be a heavily explored, core concept of the character, rather than a rarely used device created only to be used as a shield whenever someone calls Batman out for being a Fascist.

Depends on what version you read or watch of Batman. Some versions of Batman describe the police force just as corrupt as the villains he brings in.
No police force can be that corrupt. Not in a major city like Gotham. Internal Affairs exists for the sole purpose of combating such corruption. While there are certainly corrupt police officers, and even cities where worrying large proportions of the police are on the take, to suggest that an entire city's police force can be corrupt is an idea that could only take hold in fiction. In reality, if Gotham Police were that bad, they'd have been brought before an Internal Affairs commission, and the entire force would have been put through the wringer and rebuilt from scratch.

Again, a lazy narrative device to justify yet more lazy writing.

Bruce knows he has made mistakes working in the line of duty and tries everyday to try and correct these.
By putting on the mask yet again, and beating up more criminals.

Not everything surrounded by Batman is supposed to make it out as everything he does is right and when he has just as many fans of his work and critics of his methods. Has Batman done well with Gotham? Yes, You could say so. Has he also screwed up during his work? absolutely.
If Batman were a real life character, would he be the most terrifying, amoral individual this side of Charles Manson? You can bet your life on it.

Here's a funny fact: We used to have masked vigilantes. They believed that society was on a downwards slide into amorality, and that someone needed to take a stand and try and save the moral values that were being lost. They wore masks in order to protect their identities, and stop their loved ones and families from being targetted, as well as to protect their own reputations. They weren't popular with everyone, and they ran foul of the law enforcement agencies, but they managed to have a lasting effect. In the end, they were no different from Batman in that they believed they were striving to make a better, more moral America.

The first season of Batman Beyond talk about the Wayne Foundation as something that is dear to him even in his retirement. He fought hard to keep his company in his name and away from Paxton and Derrick Powers. No, It was not thrown in there as just a "tokken" it plays a huge part in the Batman Mythos.

It's assumed that most (Not all) cops are corrupt and willing to take bribes. Gotham city has always been roped off in the DC universe and lives in this bubble.

Here is the thing. We are talking about Batman in the DC universe. Not in real life. Arguing about a real life Batman is pointless. You just made the dumbest comparison I have seen on the escapist and you should just feel bad. That is just awful.
 

Something Amyss

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Dec 3, 2008
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Little Woodsman said:
Plus all the jobs he creates as one of those horrible vile 'captains of industry'.
Which is really easy to do when your company is more fantastical than the guy who's faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, and able to leap tall buildings in a single bound.
 

HardkorSB

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Mrkowi said:
In the past, role of "the most badass person ever"(or however people describe him)
was taken by characters such as Chuck Norris, or Boba Fet.
The Chuck Norris thing was a joke to begin with and Boba Fett has nothing going for him except a cool looking mask.
 

AgentCooper

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j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
eyepatchdreams said:
It's assumed that most (Not all) cops are corrupt and willing to take bribes. Gotham city has always been roped off in the DC universe and lives in this bubble.
How convenient.

Here is the thing. We are talking about Batman in the DC universe. Not in real life. Arguing about a real life Batman is pointless. You just made the dumbest comparison I have seen on the escapist and you should just feel bad. That is just awful.
How is it awful? All I did was give an example of what happens when masked vigilantism happens in real life.

You're the one trying to argue that Batman is some kind of awesome force for good, who helps make Gotham a better place. All I did was give an example of what generally happens when people put on masks and try and fight for what they believe are 'moral values'. If you don't like it, then perhaps you need to re-evaluate just how you see vigilantism. Because as far as I'm concerned, trying to divorce the likes of Batmam from real life vigilantes like the KKK is like trying to show someone getting shot without any sort of blood or physical damage being shown. It completely ignores the reality of the situation, and insults the readers intelligence by trying to portray it as something it isn't.
You are equating one hate group to Batman. You drummed up one of the most infamously hate groups in America and took something and said this is what happens.

The reality of the situation is Batman is a flawed character who attempts to help and better a city that was not doing well to begin with. There is always the duality with Batman. He feels like he is doing the right thing and the other side of him doesn't know if what he has done has helped or hurt people.. He knows he is wrong and his moral ladder is always in question.
 

Mr. Omega

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Jul 1, 2010
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I have two major issues about Batman.

1 is as Jeffers said, Batman never actually tries to solve the root of the problem. The Wayne Foundation is a handwave a best. But this is easily fixed. A couple story arcs would be something fun to focus on. Plus, it'd be nice to possibly see Batman deal with white-collar crime for once. And maybe NOT have it be Lex Luthor.

Still, that can be justified. It'd be hard to write well. But my other problem... I'll just quote myself...

Batman has just gotten progressively more and more powerful as time went on. Some of it was because DC had to come up with a reason to justify him being in the Justice League without being a burden. Some of it was the Silver Age, which boosted the power of almost every hero in DC to absurd levels. Some of it was because eventually big fans got to write the character and wrote him to be supah speshul awesome. Not all of it was bad, but it's long since passed the point where Batman has become the Gary Stu to end all Gary Stus.
The fact that "Batman + Prep-time can beat anything!" is a serious statement should be a major red flag. It's been established he's the single greatest martial artist in the entire world. He has reflexes so great he can dodge shots miles away OR at point blank. He has a healing written in a way not unlike Wolverine. He's created the single biggest, most comprehensive survailence system in the world. He fucking KILLED THE DCU'S GOD OF EVIL. (before the reboot retconed it...)

The "Hero + Prep Time" is a trope as old as fiction. But the fact that it could genuinely be considered that Batman could take on the entire DCU and win and have the entire thing be written of as "He was prepared for the whole thing" just makes me roll my eyes. It certainly doesn't help that a common thing is that to make Batman seem smart, everyone else has to be dumb.

I still like Batman. But I HATE how they've made him Kung-Fu Detective Jesus, Most Awesome-est Man in the Universe.