Still think you think straight even AFTER the philosophical health check, think again

[radioactive lemur]

This is based on the thread http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.270885-Poll-Think-you-think-straight-Think-again

All in all I found that test extremely interesting. However, I was disappointed that what I consider the biggest and most common contradictions in our society were not addressed, so I made my own such test. In my opinion it's quite a bit harder. Enjoy! I will explain where the contradictions lie after a few people have answered. Also note that the way I worded questions does NOT necessarily reflect my own opinion.

1. "Theft, defined as the removal of property by force or threat of force is never morally acceptable."

2. "I believe in equal rights in society. No race, gender, profession, or religion should be discriminated against or given special rights or protections."

3. "The ends justify the means"

4. "I believe institutions like socialized medicine and public schools should be maintained and improved"

5. "Non-consenting activity is not morally acceptable"

6. "Eating animals is not fundamentally immoral as it is natural behavior"

7. "I believe that at least some element of gun control (ex. special bullet tax, licensing, restriction of automatic weapons) should be maintained"

8. "Rape could be morally acceptable if it resulted in a super-intelligent child who would cure world hunger."

9. "I believe abortion is fundamentally the murder of a child"

10. "Gays should be free to marry just like heterosexual couples"

 

[Jonluw]

1. No, I believe it can be justified
2. Yes.
3. Only in some cases.
4. Yes.
5. Sometimes it is.
6. Indeed.
7. Yup.
8. Only if you could prove that would be the outcome beforehand (in which case the woman would have to be a horrible person to refuse)
9. Nope.
10. For the most part, yes. I don't believe they should be allowed to marry in any church they like, if that churche's views conflict with homosexuality. I do think that church should be shunned though. i.e. I don't think anyone should be allowed to force someone to go against their own values for such a selfish reason as getting married.

 

[CactiComplex]

1. Disagree
2. Agree
3. Not always, so for the sake of simplicity I'm disagreeing
4. Agree
5. Agree
6. Agree
7. Agree
8. Disagree
9. Disagree
10. Agree, though there are some religious issues to consider when it comes to church (churches of any religion, I should probably say) marriages

 

[Bakuryukun]

How about, I don't think a set of values and thoughts should be rigid like and on or off switch, I think they should be malleable and change depending on the situation, that any rule no matter how absolute will always have exceptions and it is up to all of us personally to draw those line. That arguing the semantics of a rule down to the very letter, is a fruitless endeavor when matters of law aren't involved, especially when the rule in question has to do with personal morality as opposed to any action.

I think by boiling down the situations and rules here to a single sentence, you really limit any amount of conversation you could have on these topics to very basic dichotomic nature, which really hampers complex discussion and just sort of want to make a point about what you believe, which is fine, but don't hide it under a pretense of fair discussion.

 

[Jamboxdotcom]

1. Agree, mostly.

2. Agree... which is unfortunate because it allows for groups like WBC, but so be it.

3. Neither. I believe that's something that cannot be absolute.

4. Agree. These things are vital for a society to advance.

5. Not really sure what you mean there.

6. Agree. However, this does not justify cruel treatment of animals.

7. Agree.

8. Disagree, very strongly. And if you are going to suggest that this is a contradiction of my belief in socialized education and medicine, we have no more to discuss. Mostly, though i completely agree with Jonluw above.

9. Agree. However, i disagree that it should be illegal.

10. Agree. However, as mentioned by others, no church should be forced to perform such a marriage if it is against their values. Honestly, though, if one is gay, why would one attend a church that feels homosexuality is wrong? That's like being a gay republican.


if you can't tell from my answers, i believe in principles or guidelines, rather than concrete rules. there are exceptions to almost everything, so everything should be considered case-by-case.

 

[radioactive lemur]

1. No, I believe it can be justified
2. Yes.
3. Only in some cases.
4. Yes.
5. Sometimes it is.
6. Indeed.
7. Yup.
8. Only if you could prove that would be the outcome beforehand (in which case the woman would have to be a horrible person to refuse)
9. Nope.
10. For the most part, yes. I don't believe they should be allowed to marry in any church they like, if that churche's views conflict with homosexuality. I do think that church should be shunned though. i.e. I don't think anyone should be allowed to force someone to go against their own values for such a selfish reason as getting married.

Very interesting answers so far, but for the record, perhaps I should clarify 3) as "at least sometimes the ends justify the means" and 8) for the purpose of argument the outcome would be 100% provable beforehand.

 

[Jonluw]

1. No, I believe it can be justified
2. Yes.
3. Only in some cases.
4. Yes.
5. Sometimes it is.
6. Indeed.
7. Yup.
8. Only if you could prove that would be the outcome beforehand (in which case the woman would have to be a horrible person to refuse)
9. Nope.
10. For the most part, yes. I don't believe they should be allowed to marry in any church they like, if that churche's views conflict with homosexuality. I do think that church should be shunned though. i.e. I don't think anyone should be allowed to force someone to go against their own values for such a selfish reason as getting married.

Very interesting answers so far, but for the record, perhaps I should clarify 3) as "at least sometimes the ends justify the means" and 8) for the purpose of argument the outcome would be 100% provable beforehand.

Then I'm going for no, since there are ways to impregnate a woman without raping her, and that would sure be a strange woman who does not consent.

Edit: and for 3, that's a yes then.

 

[Dimitriov]

1. Sometimes it is.

2. Agree.

3. The ends can justify the means, but rarely. As an absolute statement I disagree with it.

4. As an absolute statement I disagree with this as well. These are fine institutions but I don't believe they should be maintained no matter the cost.

5. Another absolute statement where I feel flexibility is required.

6. I agree.

7. I agree.

8. Disagree.

9. Agree.

10. Agree, but as stated above they have no right to force a religious institution to perform the ceremony against their will.

 

[Haydyn]

1. By that definition, reposessing someone's things for not paying their debt is theft, so no.

2. Of course

3. Sometimes

4. Yes

5. Again, what if someone breaks the law? You have to force them to pay for their crime.

6. Yes. Humans function a lot better when eating animals. Watch Fat Head, it will change what you think about healthy eating.

7. Yes.

8. Hmmm, depends. My first thoughts went towards not morally acceptable, but if rape was going to happen anyways, might as well get a super baby out of it. But only if the person being raped actually deserved it.

9. No formal stance on abortion.
Pros: Less overpopulation
Crime goes down
Less responsibility

Cons:
Babies dieing
Gives people (teenagers) excuse to have tons of (unprotective) sex, resulting in regret and STIs.

10. This is coming from a Christian: Homosexuals should have the same rights as everybody else, and if they want to marry eachother, that's perfect! No one religion or group OWNS marriage, and for anyone to say you have to have a penis and a vagina to have a functioning marriage, then they obviously have not seen how many straight couples get divoriced.

 

[Morrowind393]

1. Agree
2. Agree
3. Disagree
4. Disagree
5. I have no clue what you mean on this one
6. Agree
7. Disagree
8. Disagree
9. Disagree
10. Agree

 

[Floppertje]

It should be noted I HATE yes-no statements, because there are ALWAYS nuances. that's also why voting guides suck

having said that:
1. it can be
2. only in the perfect society where everyone is respectful to one another. otherwise, it's fine to give certain groups protection
3. depends on the ends, depends on the means
4. of course!
5. well... no, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it in some cases.
6. agree. also, I like meat
7. hell yes.
8. disagree, and this question is completely irrelevant because that's not a possible scenario
9. disagree, or I'd be a mass murderer every time I had a wank.
10. Of course, or I'd be in conflict with question 2

 

[baker80]

No offense, but some of your question are very loaded and badly formulated.

1: Obviously an attempt to conflate theft and taxation. You are made to pay your taxes via threat of legal consequences, but that doesn't make it theft, because theft is by definition unlawful, which taxes are not. Redefining the meaning of theft doesn't make the question less loaded, by the way.

2: Too vague. Do con artists and drug dealers count as a profession? Human sacrifice rituals as a religion? Impossible to answer meaningfully because you're making some assumptions we don't know about, which tie into different ethical issues altogether.

3: Ok.

4: Ok.

5: Conflating two separate issues again. Getting thrown into prison is obviously not consensual, but that doesn't make it the same as rape. You're excluding a middle position here.

6: Would be ok except for the "natural." Tempting people into a naturalistic fallacy is bad form.

7: Ok.

8: Ok

9: Ok.

10: Ok.

Also I think it's kind of funny that you consider gun control, rape and gay rights the biggest issues our society is facing right now.

 

[radioactive lemur]

No offense, but some of your question are very loaded and badly formulated.

1: Obviously an attempt to conflate theft and taxation. You are made to pay your taxes via threat of legal consequences, but that doesn't make it theft, because theft is by definition unlawful, which taxes are not. Redefining the meaning of theft doesn't make the question less loaded, by the way.

2: Too vague. Do con artists and drug dealers count as a profession? Human sacrifice rituals as a religion? Impossible to answer meaningfully because you're making some assumptions we don't know about, which tie into different ethical issues altogether.

3: Ok.

4: Ok.

5: Conflating two separate issues again. Getting thrown into prison is obviously not consensual, but that doesn't make it the same as rape. You're excluding a middle position here.

6: Would be ok except for the "natural." Tempting people into a naturalistic fallacy is bad form.

7: Ok.

8: Ok

9: Ok.

10: Ok.

Also I think it's kind of funny that you consider gun control, rape and gay rights the biggest issues our society is facing right now.

At least you got what I was going for, not everyone would. You're wrong though, legality could not be less relevant in terms of morality. Everything Hitler did was 100% legal according to the laws of his time and place. Taxation IS theft, I challenge anyone to see an actual logical way around that. The "rape" question was also about taxation by the way. Both consensual sex and business transaction are inherently good, whereas rape and taxation are inherently bad regardless of the consequences. The key is consent. I was frankly amazed how many thought theft and rape would be okay, so a lot of people were consistent about social programs. However, only TestEcull got the equality and gun control questions right. In a society with gun control of any kind, there can be no equality between citizens and cops, and genocide is the inevitable result over a long enough timeframe, making it THE most important issue in our society right now. The stuff about abortion, gay marriage, and meat was just to throw people off.

 

[Dimitriov]

Double post by mistake -_-

 

[Dimitriov]

No offense, but some of your question are very loaded and badly formulated.

1: Obviously an attempt to conflate theft and taxation. You are made to pay your taxes via threat of legal consequences, but that doesn't make it theft, because theft is by definition unlawful, which taxes are not. Redefining the meaning of theft doesn't make the question less loaded, by the way.

2: Too vague. Do con artists and drug dealers count as a profession? Human sacrifice rituals as a religion? Impossible to answer meaningfully because you're making some assumptions we don't know about, which tie into different ethical issues altogether.

3: Ok.

4: Ok.

5: Conflating two separate issues again. Getting thrown into prison is obviously not consensual, but that doesn't make it the same as rape. You're excluding a middle position here.

6: Would be ok except for the "natural." Tempting people into a naturalistic fallacy is bad form.

7: Ok.

8: Ok

9: Ok.

10: Ok.

Also I think it's kind of funny that you consider gun control, rape and gay rights the biggest issues our society is facing right now.

At least you got what I was going for, not everyone would. You're wrong though, legality could not be less relevant in terms of morality. Everything Hitler did was 100% legal according to the laws of his time and place. Taxation IS theft, I challenge anyone to see an actual logical way around that. The "rape" question was also about taxation by the way. Both consensual sex and business transaction are inherently good, whereas rape and taxation are inherently bad regardless of the consequences. The key is consent. I was frankly amazed how many thought theft and rape would be okay, so a lot of people were consistent about social programs. However, only TestEcull got the equality and gun control questions right. In a society with gun control of any kind, there can be no equality between citizens and cops, and genocide is the inevitable result over a long enough timeframe, making it THE most important issue in our society right now. The stuff about abortion, gay marriage, and meat was just to throw people off.

That last bit about gun control makes no sense. Any form of gun control? Such as for instance merely having to be licensed to own a gun, which effectively is what any police officer's badge is. That is equality. The stuff about genocide is too ludicrous for me to comment on.

 

[Trolldor]

This is based on the thread http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.270885-Poll-Think-you-think-straight-Think-again

All in all I found that test extremely interesting. However, I was disappointed that what I consider the biggest and most common contradictions in our society were not addressed, so I made my own such test. In my opinion it's quite a bit harder. Enjoy! I will explain where the contradictions lie after a few people have answered. Also note that the way I worded questions does NOT necessarily reflect my own opinion.

1. "Theft, defined as the removal of property by force or threat of force is never morally acceptable."

2. "I believe in equal rights in society. No race, gender, profession, or religion should be discriminated against or given special rights or protections."

3. "The ends justify the means"

4. "I believe institutions like socialized medicine and public schools should be maintained and improved"

5. "Non-consenting activity is not morally acceptable"

6. "Eating animals is not fundamentally immoral as it is natural behavior"

7. "I believe that at least some element of gun control (ex. special bullet tax, licensing, restriction of automatic weapons) should be maintained"

8. "Rape could be morally acceptable if it resulted in a super-intelligent child who would cure world hunger."

9. "I believe abortion is fundamentally the murder of a child"

10. "Gays should be free to marry just like heterosexual couples"

1. Moral absolute. Dismissed.
2. Again, absolute position. Dismissed.
3. Wut? What ends and what means? Again, absolute. Dismissed.
4. Absolute. Dismi...

Actually, let's save myself some time.
1 through to 10: Absolute position and statement. Dismissed.

 

[BonsaiK]

This is based on the thread http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.270885-Poll-Think-you-think-straight-Think-again

All in all I found that test extremely interesting. However, I was disappointed that what I consider the biggest and most common contradictions in our society were not addressed, so I made my own such test. In my opinion it's quite a bit harder. Enjoy! I will explain where the contradictions lie after a few people have answered. Also note that the way I worded questions does NOT necessarily reflect my own opinion.

1. "Theft, defined as the removal of property by force or threat of force is never morally acceptable."

2. "I believe in equal rights in society. No race, gender, profession, or religion should be discriminated against or given special rights or protections."

3. "The ends justify the means"

4. "I believe institutions like socialized medicine and public schools should be maintained and improved"

5. "Non-consenting activity is not morally acceptable"

6. "Eating animals is not fundamentally immoral as it is natural behavior"

7. "I believe that at least some element of gun control (ex. special bullet tax, licensing, restriction of automatic weapons) should be maintained"

8. "Rape could be morally acceptable if it resulted in a super-intelligent child who would cure world hunger."

9. "I believe abortion is fundamentally the murder of a child"

10. "Gays should be free to marry just like heterosexual couples"

I supose I'll bite.

1. No. Your definition of a thief also perfectly fits the definition of a repo man. While I don't like thieves, repo men are fucking cool.
2. No, I don't believe that. Equality is deluded. Which society, anyway?
3. Which ends? What means? The answer depends on the question. Abstaining due to a basic lack of information.
4. Not going to touch this with a ten foot pole as "socialised" medicine is just some phony concept Americans thought up to scare rednecks. Medicine isn't about socialism, communism, capitalism or any other ism, it's about fucking health and people in the USA need to wake up and realise this and stop bringing irrelevant politics into it before they drown in a sea of their own medical bills.
5. Depends on the activity. If you're a thief and I handcuff you, you probably didn't consent to that. However, I probably wouldn't then rape you.
6. Fuck "natural behaviour", eating animals is good because it's tasty. Besides, they'd eat us if they could. Animals agree and are keen to demonstrate this whenever we let them get away with it.
7. Yes. I believe in gun control for everyone except me. Give me all the guns, I don't trust you guys.
8. Not worth it. Some people deserve to go hungry.
9. Yes, I agree. However I don't think there's anything wrong with murder in this instance.
10. I question whether heterosexual couples should be free to marry. I suppose if hetero couples really want to do something that silly we might as well let homo couples do it too. In both cases it's a good idea to try and at least talk them out of it first though.

In summary, I'm not sure if you really thought your questions through all that well.

 

[baker80]

At least you got what I was going for, not everyone would. You're wrong though, legality could not be less relevant in terms of morality. Everything Hitler did was 100% legal according to the laws of his time and place. Taxation IS theft, I challenge anyone to see an actual logical way around that. The "rape" question was also about taxation by the way. Both consensual sex and business transaction are inherently good, whereas rape and taxation are inherently bad regardless of the consequences. The key is consent. I was frankly amazed how many thought theft and rape would be okay, so a lot of people were consistent about social programs. However, only TestEcull got the equality and gun control questions right. In a society with gun control of any kind, there can be no equality between citizens and cops, and genocide is the inevitable result over a long enough timeframe, making it THE most important issue in our society right now. The stuff about abortion, gay marriage, and meat was just to throw people off.

Ok, now I simply regret that I ever bothered answering your silly little questionnaire.

Ugh...