Sweden Moves Towards Gender Neutrality [Support Thread]

[Darken12]

I would like to thank OhJohnNo for bringing this up to my attention. You deserve all the credit.

I have selected an array of websites that tell the same story from different angles, and focusing on different issues. You may peruse these at your leisure:

From Slate [http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2012/04/hen_sweden_s_new_gender_neutral_pronoun_causes_controversy_.html]. From Care2 [http://www.care2.com/causes/sweden-adopts-a-gender-neutral-pronoun.html]. From The Economist [http://www.economist.com/blogs/johnson/2012/04/gender].

The highlights reel, for those without the time or inclination to read the full articles:

• * Sweden has incorporated a pronoun ("hen"), which is intended to be gender-neutral (as opposed to "han" and "hon", which are the feminine and masculine pronouns).
  * Sweden does not intend to eliminate masculine and feminine pronouns from use, but to incorporate the gender-neutral pronouns as an alternative when gender is irrelevant (as is in almost every facet of life).
  * Other advances towards gender neutrality include a reformation of pedagogy, the education system, children toys and children books.

This is a cause for celebration for those of us who seek the systematic destruction and deconstruction of gender in society, and these news fill my heart with much-needed hope and joy. It is my sincerest hope that this ushers a new wave of change and progress in the world.

Since I know how these types of threads go and I don't want to see it locked because people can't tolerate divergent opinions, I have one thing to politely request of everyone:

[HEADING=3]If you vehemently disagree with gender deconstructivism and its goals and you cannot phrase your disagreement politely, neutrally or within the board rules, please hit the back button or close the tab. You are completely free to start your own thread on the matter to bemoan these terrible news.[/HEADING]

[HEADING=2]This thread is intended by me as a positive take on the matter. It is not intended to condemn or derogate these practices, but to show my support. This is a positive thread. Please keep counter opinions or disagreements in polite and measured tones. Thank you.[/HEADING]

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

I find the whole thing rather silly. Not to part about them wanting gender neutrality (that's completely fine), but the fact that they actually had to come up with a new word and incorporate it into their language in order to have a pronoun that's gender unspecific. I mean, couldn't they just re-appropriate some other word from their language and give it a secondary definition, kind of like "one" in English.

Also, "hen" seems a rather poor choice for a gender neutral word. If they were looking for a word that resembled "han" and "hon" then why not "hin" or "hun"?

Anyway, good luck to them I guess if they are trying to make their country entirely gender neutral. I've always been a fan of the fact that Sweden has really great gender equality (especially that they give both the mother and the father of a new born baby government mandated "maternity leave").

 

[ultrachicken]

I find the whole thing rather silly. Not to part about them wanting gender neutrality (that's completely fine), but the fact that they actually had to come up with a new word and incorporate it into their language in order to have a pronoun that's gender unspecific. I mean, couldn't they just re-appropriate some other word from their language and give it a secondary definition, kind of like "one" in English.

The "one" solution is really crappy, though, as it makes sentences sound very clunky. We need a real gender-neutral, singular pronoun.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

I find the whole thing rather silly. Not to part about them wanting gender neutrality (that's completely fine), but the fact that they actually had to come up with a new word and incorporate it into their language in order to have a pronoun that's gender unspecific. I mean, couldn't they just re-appropriate some other word from their language and give it a secondary definition, kind of like "one" in English.

The "one" solution is really crappy, though, as it makes sentences sound very clunky. We need a real gender-neutral, singular pronoun.

Only one who is not used to using the word "one" as a pronoun would find it to be clunky. Although I could see how it could be awkward if one had to use it multiple times in the same paragraph in place of all the pronouns, though I feel like any word would feel clunky in that context, and would look like an overuse of pronouns. I think that most people who find the pronoun "one" to be distasteful are people who grew up without having to use it for school work, so they just aren't used to it.

Then again, this probably isn't the thread to debate the merits of English grammatical structure, which can be unnecessarily convoluted in general.

 

[Darken12]

I find the whole thing rather silly. Not to part about them wanting gender neutrality (that's completely fine), but the fact that they actually had to come up with a new word and incorporate it into their language in order to have a pronoun that's gender unspecific. I mean, couldn't they just re-appropriate some other word from their language and give it a secondary definition, kind of like "one" in English.

The usage of the word "hen" actually dates back a number of years. It was simply rescued from the disuse pile and reincorporated into the language. Instead of making up an entirely new word, they used one that already served that purpose.

I've always been a fan of the fact that Sweden has really great gender equality (especially that they give both the mother and the father of a new born baby government mandated "maternity leave").

This is indeed the purpose. The theorycraft behind this gender neutrality movement is to make a concrete, definitive change towards gender equality. As they correctly deduced, such change must begin with the way we gender-segregate children, and in the language we use every day.

The psychology and sociology behind these changes is pretty solidly researched.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Hmmm...watch this space. The idea is good, but we shall have to wait and see if it's implemented well and successfully.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

I find the whole thing rather silly. Not to part about them wanting gender neutrality (that's completely fine), but the fact that they actually had to come up with a new word and incorporate it into their language in order to have a pronoun that's gender unspecific. I mean, couldn't they just re-appropriate some other word from their language and give it a secondary definition, kind of like "one" in English.

The usage of the word "hen" actually dates back a number of years. It was simply rescued from the disuse pile and reincorporated into the language. Instead of making up an entirely new word, they used one that already served that purpose.

From what I read in the Slate article it seems like it was never a real word, it was just a theoretical word made up in the 1960s as an example of something that could be used as a gender neutral pronoun. It doesn't seem like it was a disused word, rather it was a word that had never been incorporated into the language. You could still have the spirit of an official gender neutral pronoun by choosing another word.

 

[Darken12]

From what I read in the Slate article it seems like it was never a real word, it was just a theoretical word made up in the 1960s as an example of something that could be used as a gender neutral pronoun. It doesn't seem like it was a disused word, rather it was a word that had never been incorporated into the language. You could still have the spirit of an official gender neutral pronoun by choosing another word.

Correct, but words get made up all the time. There's a reason we have a word for that, even (neologism).

Just like scientific, medical and technological progress demands an actualisation of language, I fail to see why social progress should be any different. We have to accept the limitations of the language and create new words when the need arises.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

From what I read in the Slate article it seems like it was never a real word, it was just a theoretical word made up in the 1960s as an example of something that could be used as a gender neutral pronoun. It doesn't seem like it was a disused word, rather it was a word that had never been incorporated into the language. You could still have the spirit of an official gender neutral pronoun by choosing another word.

Correct, but words get made up all the time. There's a reason we have a word for that, even (neologism).

Just like scientific, medical and technological progress demands an actualisation of language, I fail to see why social progress should be any different. We have to accept the limitations of the language and create new words when the need arises.

I understand that, I just don't like the word itself. It's not a great word, and if they're making up words anyway they could have easily made up something better, or just re-purposed another word by giving it an extra meaning.

 

[krazykidd]

So what? This is a positive thread only? No place for criticision or opinion? Thus no discussion? Really ? Well that makes this thread pretty ...boring . I was looking for flame wars , but peoples opinion would be nice. Anyways, i think this is silly but since this is a "positive" thread i'll just leave it at that . If i had something positive to say it would be i applaud them on having the courage and will to support change .

 

[Darken12]

I understand that, I just don't like the word itself. It's not a great word, and if they're making up words anyway they could have easily made up something better, or just re-purposed another word by giving it an extra meaning.

That's perfectly understandable.

So what? This is a positive thread only? No place for criticision or opinion? Thus no discussion? Really ? Well that makes this thread pretty ...boring . I was looking for flame wars , but peoples opinion would be nice. Anyways, i think this is silly but since this is a "positive" thread i'll just leave it at that . If i had something positive to say it would be i applaud them on having the courage and will to support change .

That is exactly what I want to avoid. I know how feminism/gender threads end up (closed due to flame wars), and I have no desire to see that happening here.

I have no intention of censoring anyone or restricting free speech, so if people want to rail against this, I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with them creating a thread of their own.

Thank you for staying positive, I genuinely appreciate it.

 

[Genocidicles]

I don't know how I feel about this. I mean what's wrong with just Gender equality? It just sounds like they're changing everything just for the benefit of transgendered people, who make up a tiny percent of the population.

I also think it's ridiculous one school took away the toy cars because the boys preferred them. Letting the kids choose is fine, but taking away their choice because it's 'normal' is fucking stupid.

Also, this is hilarious:

 

[repeating integers]

Thanks for the credit, though I personally got the link from the RelicNews Forums [http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?271861-Sweden-introduces-gender-neutral-pronoun] in the first place. Anyway, yeah, I think this is a great idea from multiple perspectives - people who identify as gender-neutral now have a pronoun they can use, children are not as railroaded down the traditional gender paths from the early age and it makes writing a lot easier (if you're writing a biography of an RPG character who could be of any gender the player wants, for example, or want to hide the gender of a character from your readers).

I will say, though... we should probably allow discussion in this thread. I know, Escapist gender threads have a habit of descending into flamewars, but I doubt the thread will go anywhere if it stays like this. Plus, we'll probably end up with a host of passive-aggressive replies from people against it.

 

[Froggy Slayer]

'I do not have gender as you know, and as such 'he' and 'her' are inaccurate descriptors. Hence I shall be reffered to as 'shklim' or 'shkler'.'

 

[Darken12]

I don't know how I feel about this. I mean what's wrong with just Gender equality? It just sounds like they're changing everything just for the benefit of transgendered people, who make up a tiny percent of the population.

Actually, the main rationale comes from feminism, not transgender activists. The theory behind this is that gender constructs are inherently oppressive and harmful, and true gender equality cannot be reached until we deconstruct the meaning of gender in society at large.

I will say, though... we should probably allow discussion in this thread. I know, Escapist gender threads have a habit of descending into flamewars, but I doubt the thread will go anywhere if it stays like this. Plus, we'll probably end up with a host of passive-aggressive replies from people against it.

Neutral discussion is fine, my request was aimed at excessive anti-feminism that would get this thread locked. I'd rather deal with passive-aggressiveness (to which I can reply with politeness) than lengthy flamewars that force moderator lockdown. If the thread gets closed, the people who wish to silence this kind of social progress win. So not only they get to say their piece, they also get to shut down the discussion in the first place. Which is something I have no interest in seeing or facilitating.

 

[Esotera]

Will the government creating a word actually lead to it being used? If history shows us one thing it's that encouraging/discouraging words doesn't seem to have much effect in the long-run - we'd just have to hope that it catches on & is memorable.

As for English, we already have gender neutral pronouns, although they're rarely used. It can also get a bit confusing when you state 'they' instead of 'he' or 'she' as it implies you're talking about more than one person...

 

[generals3]

While I think adding a neutral pronoun is good for practical reasons I don't really see how this is a feminist issue.

Now what I do find rather distasteful are some of the actions taken towards toys, removing cars just because male children would gender-code them is pushing the line.

 

[Kopikatsu]

I think the English language needs a gender neutral pronoun, too. Less embarrassing when addressing someone over the phone whose voice you can't identify, or when speaking to someone that's androgynous, or whatever.

As for English, we already have gender neutral pronouns, although they're rarely used. It can also get a bit confusing when you state 'they' instead of 'he' or 'she' as it implies you're talking about more than one person...

'It' and 'They' are way too clunky to be used as singular pronouns, I think. Plus offensive. I don't think most people would take kindly to be referred to as an 'It'.

 

[Beffudled Sheep_v1legacy]

This is some pretty good news. Hopefully they implement it well and not manage to create massive backlash through stupidity.
But then again this is government and we all know that even the best governments run by the smartest people still somehow act very stupidly fairly often.

I'll be keeping my eye on this news to see how well it progresses. Thanks Darken

 

[lee1287]

I've always liked Sweden, they just seem so chilled (badumtish) this seems like a good idea in theory, just have to wait and see I guess.