The FTL cloning question

[Redlin5_v1legacy]

So in the game FTL (a game about ships in space doing the typical things ships in space do) you can opt to have a part of your ship be dedicated to cloning. Whenever one of your crew bites the dust its just a matter of a few seconds until a fresh clone pops out, a perfect copy of the original.

Now for game balance reasons, these clones lose some experiences. However, for this thread's purposes, let's say nothing is different aside from the flesh created to replace you. You retain every memory when you are cloned back into life. The catch is, like the game, if the cloning equipment shorts out while you're being reconstituted, you die forever.

So. You can effectively throw your body into harms way without fear as long as that machine is running smoothly. You'll still feel the pain of death of course but it isn't the end of the road anymore.

What kind of shenanigans are you going to get up to?

Myself? Maybe I can cure my fear of heights... By constantly jumping off of skyscrapers.

Your turn.

 

[Vendor-Lazarus]

I don't see that scenario as a continuation of myself, much like Star Trek transporters.
It's a copy of you, but not you you.

I know I'm not me from an hour ago, nor the me of the future, but those are all flowing in a continuous stream of consciousness.
Now, I could be cloned every night and the old me destroyed for all I know. The point is that I would know it I guess I'm saying.

I'm looking forward to the day I can Transcend humanity via technology.

Oh, right. On topic.

I..don't know..actually..Hmm.. Do Science!!?
Bound to be an explosion or two.

 

[Diablo1099_v1legacy]

Well, while they didn't exactly point it out in game, I do remember that in a few situations, namely the Virus colony one, you are not allowed to clone the person who got infected because of some Fed regulations, meaning he/she is still, game play wise, dead.
So I'm not entirely sure if you would be able to kill yourself over and over, I think the FTL crew get a pass because of the whole "War" thing.

Now, I know this isn't what you intended for this forum, but when is the next time someone is going to talk about the cloning in FTL? ^^;

 

[Roxas1359]

Hm, throw my body in to direct harms way, no. Be way more reckless about what I do and about my general well-being? Sorry, can't hear you over the sound of me eating 15 pizzas after finding out I can be cloned and effectively wipe out the fear of dying, bar the equipment being destroyed. Only main thing I'd add on would be I'd add a clone number for each one, like in Destroy All Humans with Cryptosporidium-136. We'd have Neronium-1 to probably Neronium-337 after those pizzas are done. :3

 

[Thaluikhain]

Hey, we've got someone to replace you, so you can die if you want?

Yeah...no thanks.

 

[kurupt87]

Yeah, like the others have said; it isn't me coming back, it's some other mother fucker just like me.

For it to work you need that all important continuation. So, the mind/brain must be separate from the body and control it remotely. Then, if the body dies it can be replaced and a new connection made to the mind. Of course if the brain dies you're done.

 

[oreso]

'Continuation of identity' is an odd thing, since we don't actually seem to possess it.

I have regular breaks in my consciousness, my memories, etc. Every time I sleep, drink heavily or just forget stuff, as well as the couple of times I've been knocked unconscious.

Spoiler: For those who reject this, there are other thought experiments that might help

What if we instantly replace each neuron of your brain with an identical one, one at a time? Is that different than replacing everything at once? At which point are you a 'different person'?

More contrived still: We take all the neurons from your body and place them in a new one. The old body gets a fresh set of neurons which are identical to the first. Which is the 'real you'? What if we only move half the neurons, say, your entire left hemisphere?

If you believe that minds are entirely emergent by arrangements of matter, then at some point we will have to face the uncomfortable fact that arrangements of matter are not magical and unique as we are evolutionary driven to believe our minds to be; they're just information that can be copied, stored, discontinued and altered. And indeed, actually are altered and discontinued as part of its normal operations through sleep, memory and so on.

There is still something quite uncomfortable about trusting a copy to continue in my name, so to speak. But I'd still like the option to have one, and if I had one, I probably -would- be more cavalier with my life.

That guy might not be me, but he's much closer to 'being me' than who I was as a child, or even a month ago. I don't feel distress at the 'death' of child-me, despite the numerous discontinuities of identity between us, nor month-ago-me. That copy-me might do, I guess.

 

[Kae]

It wouldn't really be me since the original me would be dead, however I am already pretty reckless as it is, I'm not really the kind of person that backs down from a fight even if they pull knives or guns on me, I'm actually rather surprised I'm still alive considering I've punched a couple of drug dealers and shoved aside a mugger one time, in any case I don't think that much would change, maybe because I get to live again I may actually go full on vigilante, but to tell the truth the only reason I haven't done that yet is because people have stopped when I finally snap, fortunately I haven't snapped in years, I mean every now and again I get in that "I should do something" mood but I manage to calm myself down, unlike before when I would start patrolling the streets at night, I didn't find much trouble but if I had bumped into it I would've done "something" without even thinking twice....
Huh, so that's why people think I'm crazy.

 

[Quellist]

Im totally behind the idea that its not me so screw that about killing myself, instead i'll hack the system and create an army of duplicates, slightly reprogrammed so they follow my commands without question, then i'll just take over the world with my clone army!

 

[Grouchy Imp_v1legacy]

Hey, we've got someone to replace you, so you can die if you want?

That's basically the whole deal with having kids, right?

OT: A clone of me is not me. I wouldn't be chucking myself into any wood-chippers anytime soon.

 

[blackrave]

That's... complicated
For one, it isn't really you but rather copy of you (someone else that looks like you, behaves like you, thinks like you and believes it is you)
On the other hand you aren't you either
I know it sounds insane, but follow me on this
We can surely tell that it's your brain that encapsulates your personality and memories
Brain cells die and get replaced during your lifetime
Also new cells appear and neural connections change regularly
So question- is that baby your mother gave birth x years ago is really you at this point?

 

[Vendor-Lazarus]

As an addendum to my previous post.

I'd be fine with replacing my neurons "one by one" with artificial ones. (It's my goal actually.)
My "self" would flow from old cells to new nano/femto-ones instead of new neurons.
There would be no break in the flow so to speak.

Replacing half the neurons at the same time would not be me, either one of the ..clones.
<spoiler=Contains Farscape and Voyager related spoilers>That is the reason I mostly don't watch beyond John Crichton getting "doubled" in Farscape, it just doesn't feel like I'm watching the same lead as I did before. My ickiness factor I presume.
While I'm still spoilered I'll say that I've no problems with Harry Kim getting "replaced" with Harry Kim in Voyager.
It's still him, in one flow.

The me being born is the same me that will die. I've only gained and lost some neurons along the way. (and experience of course.)
The funny thing is that if I'm copied while I'm out, I (copy-me) would still believe me to be me.
Now I'm getting that ickiness again.
I'd best stop here before I ... ..

 

[Thaluikhain]

Now to turn this into a cross between what everyone thinks Ghost in the Shell was about when in actual fact it never focused on it and it was actually the show that spent the most time on the topic, crossed with the topic from 999.

If that clone is exactly like you, what makes it not you? Sure you do not share the same conspicuousness, but lets say you had your memory wiped and it didn't, is it now less like you or are you less like it? If I were to build a robot and moved your conciousness into it, but your body still functioned and had your personality and memories, is robot you you or is the original you you? If you were to lose your bodies lower half (and assume your a white male) and I cloned some black chick and moved your brain into the clone, are you now a clone of the black chick? And if all these situations were a robot instead of a clone and since robots are things and therefore not people, are you now not a person? And would it therefore not be murder if I killed you?

And if I were to make a clone of you in a digital game, and had it be the random goons you kill in a Call of Duty game, would I now be murdering you because it has your personality, memories and dreams and actually felt like it was dying before its digital consciousness was snuffed out?

Headache is now coming back. :|

Next question, why just a one for one swap? Why not make 2-3 copies?

Are they all you if one copy is?

 

[Something Amyss]

I'd just clone myself five or six times. I might get a day's worth of productivity in if I had six or seven of me.

 

[Pinkamena]

Now to turn this into a cross between what everyone thinks Ghost in the Shell was about when in actual fact it never focused on it and it was actually the show that spent the most time on the topic, crossed with the topic from 999.

If that clone is exactly like you, what makes it not you? Sure you do not share the same conspicuousness, but lets say you had your memory wiped and it didn't, is it now less like you or are you less like it? If I were to build a robot and moved your conciousness into it, but your body still functioned and had your personality and memories, is robot you you or is the original you you? If you were to lose your bodies lower half (and assume your a white male) and I cloned some black chick and moved your brain into the clone, are you now a clone of the black chick? And if all these situations were a robot instead of a clone and since robots are things and therefore not people, are you now not a person? And would it therefore not be murder if I killed you?

And if I were to make a clone of you in a digital game, and had it be the random goons you kill in a Call of Duty game, would I now be murdering you because it has your personality, memories and dreams and actually felt like it was dying before its digital consciousness was snuffed out?

Headache is now coming back. :|

Next question, why just a one for one swap? Why not make 2-3 copies?

Are they all you if one copy is?

This is a much more interesting question than "what would you do if you could clone yourself". What makes you "you"? Ones sense of self is built upon memories of experiences, so if you copy those into a new body, will that new consciousness be just as much 'you' as you are yourself?

 

[Thaluikhain]

This is a much more interesting question than "what would you do if you could clone yourself". What makes you "you"? Ones sense of self is built upon memories of experiences, so if you copy those into a new body, will that new consciousness be just as much 'you' as you are yourself?

I'd say that it doesn't make all of them you. And so, likewise, a single copy isn't either.

 

[Harpalyce]

Does new cloned me have the same physical flaws/disadvantages that old me has? Because to be honest I don't really see the point of new me is also going to be disabled by debilitating chronic pain. We'd still be just as useless.

...I think the moral in my case might be "don't make me part of your crew in a roguelike space adventure where you are scrambling to flee the tyrannical rebellion in aid of the federation"

edit: Though if the answer is no, then please show me to a suicide booth and then welcome new clone me with ice cream cake and fucking confetti. I can debate the whole moral-ethical-spiritual-philosophical points once I'm not constantly in pain, but truthfully I'll probably skip that and just be stuck running around laughing in joy.

 

[Rariow]

I stay as safe as possible and try to avoid coming to physical harm. Why? Because, if I die, my consciousness dies. That is to say, the mind that's writing this message right now disappears. Sure, the cloning process ensures that an identical copy of my mind exists, it thinks exactly how I would think and it acts exactly like I would act in any given situation, but it's not me. I'm now dead, which, assuming I'm correct in my atheism, means my consciousness stops existing. The fact that there's an identical one out there doesn't mean I can continue experiencing things, it just means that whatever contribution or harm I might bring to the world still happens, brought about by someone who is exactly like me but is NOT me.