The Inherent Problem with Loot Systems

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

The video is named poorly because it's not about leveling but about loot systems in reality. It does highlight some level problems like how numbers just increasing doesn't change gameplay and even a game like Souls falls into said trap. The video mainly highlights the reason why loot systems only work for endgame. What's the point in getting an orange drop in Borderlands at level 10 when it will be useless in a couple levels? What the video doesn't bring up is the fact loot systems end up wasting so much of the player's time. You're constantly in your inventory switching weapons and gear for slightly better versions that don't change gameplay but only change numbers. Then, you sell all the obsolete crap for money that you really don't need anyway since you find everything looting obviously. Souls, on the flip side, does actually avoid this trap by upgrading stuff so you can settle with your weapon of choice for the whole game. Witcher 3 basically goes half-cock with its loot system as it has one for the 1st 15 levels or so, then you can use Witcher Gear sets that you just upgrade every few levels and the loot system is then basically bypassed.

 

[RJ 17]

So you feel that loot and/or leveling should fundamentally change the gameplay? I think that's a pretty tall order.

The thing is that most RPG's run off a class based system. So even if all RPGs were converted to a table-top format (i.e. using levels to pick which stat to upgrade, which skill to put points into, and what new abilities to select) you're still kinda locked into the role of your class. Kinda what the "role" in "role playing game" is referencing. Casters gonna cast, healers gonna heal, fighters gonna fight, etc. Leveling up gives you access to new abilities, but your "gameplay" doesn't really change, regardless. You're going to settle into your bread'n'butter combat preferences and go from there, tweaking it as necessary each time you level up. The only time your gameplay experience actively changes is when/if you decide to switch classes...and even then that just means that you'll settle into a new bread'n'butter gameplay cycle. But this format is incredibly tedious considering the amount of consideration and thought that has to be put into each level.

Then again, there's games like Monster Hunter which don't even have levels. Your strength is dependent upon how strong the gear you create is, and your gameplay changes drastically depending on what weapon you're using. Even so: most people pick 3 or 4 favored weapons and switch between them accordingly depending on what they hunt....unless you're like me and you already know that the Bow is clearly the best weapon in the game and that's all you'll ever need. :3

The (arguably sad) fact of the matter is simply that the only real way to instill a sense of "growing stronger" in an RPG is to crank the numbers up, regardless of what method is used to do this. That shiny orange gun you get at lvl 10 in Borderlands might carry you for the next five or six levels, and while it does become obsolete the moment you find something better, the act of finding something better gives you that "Ding! PROGRESSION!" feeling, because you can now see/feel like you're actually stronger than you were before. You say that Souls avoids this...but it still falls into the "gameplay doesn't change" considering you're sticking with your preferred weapon the entire game.

 

[Trunkage]

The (arguably sad) fact of the matter is simply that the only real way to instill a sense of "growing stronger" in an RPG is to crank the numbers up, regardless of what method is used to do this. That shiny orange gun you get at lvl 10 in Borderlands might carry you for the next five or six levels, and while it does become obsolete the moment you find something better, the act of finding something better gives you that "Ding! PROGRESSION!" feeling, because you can now see/feel like you're actually stronger than you were before. You say that Souls avoids this...but it still falls into the "gameplay doesn't change" considering you're sticking with your preferred weapon the entire game.

I made a mistake with Dark Souls 1. I heard you should go in blind to get the full experience. I did intuit that you should increase levels but I knew nothing of kindling bonfires, or unhollowing to get a buddy to help, or about blacksmiths, how weapon scaling works, and upgrading armours etc. I had such a frustrating time until I have up and did research. After Anor Londo. Turns out that the progression system in the game makes Dark Souls a breeze if you know how to you it properly.

 

[Captain Marvelous_v1legacy]

Yeah, Loot systems are great for variety, but variety doesn't really matter when all the weapons are basically the same. The difference is apparent when comparing BloodBourne to Nioh. Bloodbourne's weapons are unique, interesting, and play different from one another. In Nioh, even if you find a unique Katana it still plays like every other Katana, but with some added effects. I'd prefer a few unique weapons over getting the same items over and over again with slightly different numbers.

I've been getting tired of the traditional level system as well. I'd be interested in playing a game that ditches the traditional level system in favor of a gear and skill based system. Base stats will always stay the same and strength, defense, etc can only be buffed with gear or magic. And a system that allows the player to customize their attack string. So the basic string the player used at the start is replaced with something much more complex and visually appealing down the line.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

So you feel that loot and/or leveling should fundamentally change the gameplay? I think that's a pretty tall order.

The (arguably sad) fact of the matter is simply that the only real way to instill a sense of "growing stronger" in an RPG is to crank the numbers up, regardless of what method is used to do this. That shiny orange gun you get at lvl 10 in Borderlands might carry you for the next five or six levels, and while it does become obsolete the moment you find something better, the act of finding something better gives you that "Ding! PROGRESSION!" feeling, because you can now see/feel like you're actually stronger than you were before. You say that Souls avoids this...but it still falls into the "gameplay doesn't change" considering you're sticking with your preferred weapon the entire game.

What's the point in having systems that don't really change anything outside of really wasting your time? Borderlands is actually a great example on how to change gameplay via leveling due to the skills, that's where it builds actually come from, not the guns. The only reason I enjoy Borderlands is for the skills. If it just had the gun loot system, I totally wouldn't play the games. When I get an orange/purple gun prior to endgame, it's more of a relief than excitement because I don't need to replace it for an extra couple levels compared to say greens or blues, less stupid inventory management. Souls does avoid the inventory management aspect, though it does have the numbers issue (there's no skills or abilities to gain outside of its rather weak spell list). RPGs are bloated with systems that really don't do much than waste your time, which is why they're my least played genre.

 

[RJ 17]

RPGs are bloated with systems that really don't do much than waste your time, which is why they're my least played genre.

And that's fair enough, I doubt anyone is going to change your mind on that matter considering your stance (which is justified, btw).

The point I was getting at is that if you're looking for games in which your gameplay changes then - indeed - RPGs likely aren't for you. As I said, when you boil it all down the classes that most every RPG has maintain their gameplay style throughout the course of the game. Say you're playing a mage. You might get bigger fireballs to through, more powerful lightning to call down, or - GASP! - now you can throw frozen ice shards! But really you're still standing in the back hurling different colored magic at your enemies.

Again: the purpose of leveling up and increasing your numbers is to give you a sense of progression. You're now objectively stronger than you were before you leveled up. The loot is just there to help you get to the end game by giving you intermittent power boosts.

Take Diablo 3, for example. The primary goal for that game is "Get To Max Level". On that journey loot means absolutely nothing and is completely disposable. But once you've reached that primary goal, then you get to choose what kind of specialization you want to focus on. Each class has three or four different sets of gear, each of those sets offers bonuses for specific abilities. The purpose is to funnel you down into a specific way of playing your class. If you're playing a Necromancer, for example, you might want to get the set that focuses on summoning ridiculous amounts of Skeletal Mages, there's a set that makes everything the Skeletal Mages do be even more powerful. Suppose, instead, you want to focus on melee combat, there's a set out there that focuses on building around your Bone Armor skill.

The same premise applies to Borderlands. As you're heading towards max level, you're deciding on what kind of build you want to be running with. The loot is entirely disposable on your way to max level, but that's the very nature of RPG's and leveling. As I said in my first post, if you want a game that doesn't revolve around ever disposable loot, you'll need a game that doesn't even have levels to begin with, such as Monster Hunter. But even that game can get a bit tedious since you have to farm up the materials to make your own gear.

Soooooo I guess what I'm really getting at is that it's surprising that someone who has admitted they really don't like RPGs in the first place would make a topic complaining about a core mechanic of the genre. By that I mean a mechanic that is intrinsically linked to the genre itself, something that can't really be changed without simply shifting to a different genre all together. Monster Hunter, for example, is something that most people would actually probably consider a Character Action game as opposed to an RPG. There's no leveling, no experience, no learning new skills or abilities...everything about your character is completely defined by what gear you're wearing and what weapon you're using.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

RPGs are bloated with systems that really don't do much than waste your time, which is why they're my least played genre.

And that's fair enough, I doubt anyone is going to change your mind on that matter considering your stance (which is justified, btw).

The point I was getting at is that if you're looking for games in which your gameplay changes then - indeed - RPGs likely aren't for you. As I said, when you boil it all down the classes that most every RPG has maintain their gameplay style throughout the course of the game. Say you're playing a mage. You might get bigger fireballs to through, more powerful lightning to call down, or - GASP! - now you can throw frozen ice shards! But really you're still standing in the back hurling different colored magic at your enemies.

Again: the purpose of leveling up and increasing your numbers is to give you a sense of progression. You're now objectively stronger than you were before you leveled up. The loot is just there to help you get to the end game by giving you intermittent power boosts.

Take Diablo 3, for example. The primary goal for that game is "Get To Max Level". On that journey loot means absolutely nothing and is completely disposable. But once you've reached that primary goal, then you get to choose what kind of specialization you want to focus on. Each class has three or four different sets of gear, each of those sets offers bonuses for specific abilities. The purpose is to funnel you down into a specific way of playing your class. If you're playing a Necromancer, for example, you might want to get the set that focuses on summoning ridiculous amounts of Skeletal Mages, there's a set that makes everything the Skeletal Mages do be even more powerful. Suppose, instead, you want to focus on melee combat, there's a set out there that focuses on building around your Bone Armor skill.

The same premise applies to Borderlands. As you're heading towards max level, you're deciding on what kind of build you want to be running with. The loot is entirely disposable on your way to max level, but that's the very nature of RPG's and leveling. As I said in my first post, if you want a game that doesn't revolve around ever disposable loot, you'll need a game that doesn't even have levels to begin with, such as Monster Hunter. But even that game can get a bit tedious since you have to farm up the materials to make your own gear.

Soooooo I guess what I'm really getting at is that it's surprising that someone who has admitted they really don't like RPGs in the first place would make a topic complaining about a core mechanic of the genre. By that I mean a mechanic that is intrinsically linked to the genre itself, something that can't really be changed without simply shifting to a different genre all together. Monster Hunter, for example, is something that most people would actually probably consider a Character Action game as opposed to an RPG. There's no leveling, no experience, no learning new skills or abilities...everything about your character is completely defined by what gear you're wearing and what weapon you're using.

You can do things that alter gameplay even with say magic. For example, the simple upgrade of a lightning spell to chain, freeze spell to literally freeze from say a slow status, or fire spell to spread to nearby enemies. Divinity has a whole element system that plays off each other for interesting effects. So you can do far better than just increasing damage on a fireball spell. You mention how gear in Diablo has different effects/bonus and Borderlands weapons/gear do similar things. Why can't you just get lucky and find something that ups said Skeletal Mages that you can use all game instead of having to find a replacement once it becomes useless? Of course, you can have the loot system still in place and you're then looking for a drop with a larger bonus to that specific thing vs needing to switch out your piece of gear just because its numbers are too low. The skill system in Borderlands is where the progression comes from IMO. Monster Hunter is basically the same system as a loot system just disguised as something else, something worse. I wouldn't say loot systems are at all a core mechanic to the RPG genre. You spend far far far less time in your inventory in DnD than most video game RPGs. Sure you get a better weapon here or there but your main damage increases come from character leveling (since your CHARACTER is getting better at utilizing his tools of the trade) like a rogue getting more sneak attack damage or characters getting more attacks per turn. Any game, regardless of genre, shouldn't have systems or elements that really don't do anything or don't support what the game's core is. Sometimes the loot system doesn't even make sense to the game like Witcher 3 and Geralt not being able to even hold a level 2 sword when he's a master witcher.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

I've been getting tired of the traditional level system as well. I'd be interested in playing a game that ditches the traditional level system in favor of a gear and skill based system. Base stats will always stay the same and strength, defense, etc can only be buffed with gear or magic. And a system that allows the player to customize their attack string. So the basic string the player used at the start is replaced with something much more complex and visually appealing down the line.

Sounds like you basically want an RPG version of God Hand.

 

[sXeth]

You can do things that alter gameplay even with say magic. For example, the simple upgrade of a lightning spell to chain, freeze spell to literally freeze from say a slow status, or fire spell to spread to nearby enemies. Divinity has a whole element system that plays off each other for interesting effects. So you can do far better than just increasing damage on a fireball spell. You mention how gear in Diablo has different effects/bonus and Borderlands weapons/gear do similar things. Why can't you just get lucky and find something that ups said Skeletal Mages that you can use all game instead of having to find a replacement once it becomes useless? Of course, you can have the loot system still in place and you're then looking for a drop with a larger bonus to that specific thing vs needing to switch out your piece of gear just because its numbers are too low. The skill system in Borderlands is where the progression comes from IMO. Monster Hunter is basically the same system as a loot system just disguised as something else, something worse. I wouldn't say loot systems are at all a core mechanic to the RPG genre. You spend far far far less time in your inventory in DnD than most video game RPGs. Sure you get a better weapon here or there but your main damage increases come from character leveling (since your CHARACTER is getting better at utilizing his tools of the trade) like a rogue getting more sneak attack damage or characters getting more attacks per turn. Any game, regardless of genre, shouldn't have systems or elements that really don't do anything or don't support what the game's core is. Sometimes the loot system doesn't even make sense to the game like Witcher 3 and Geralt not being able to even hold a level 2 sword when he's a master witcher.

Magic is the obvious go-to for adding diverse gameplay to levelling, its even where stuff like Skyrim's basically placebo-effect leveling makes a rare change.

This is, and bear with me here, because RPGs and even games in general do regular combat like a pile of garbage with no creativity or depth to it. Even D&D falls into the trap, its been awhile since I played the old game, but I distinctly recall that while mages and so on get an ever increasing versatility of spells, fighters are prettymuch reliant on getting their +3 longswords to even remotely advance.

I'd agree that the action looter games, (your Monster Hunters, Warframes, Destiny, and Borderlands) probably would benefit from not having the base numerical Attack/Defense progression on things and just focusing on the added skills. If you're going to largely be putting your core in the players action combat skill, don't put weird artificial number gates on content. Warframe does have the interesting conceit of levelling up perks that you can then put on any gear, while levelling up gear/frames(classes) itself is mostly a factor of what perks it can hold (and can be done in literally one mission).

You could tenuously add Souls to that pile too, though very few items in Souls have the same sort of skill/perk stuff going on in them. Or Breath of the Wild, which for being the Zelda game that suddenly doubled down on combat, also tossed the classic gadget collection of abilities in the trash for Spear +++ tripe.

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

On a far shallower level, I find it quite annoying when I have a fancy bit of designer gear that I feel obligated to swap with the newly found shit looking gear just because the shit looking gear has a bigger number on it. But i have to have the big numbers to make me the strong bear. It is a shameful compulsion.

 

[Chimpzy_v1legacy]

On a far shallower level, I find it quite annoying when I have a fancy bit of designer gear that I feel obligated to swap with the newly found shit looking gear just because the shit looking gear has a bigger number on it. But i have to have the big numbers to make me the strong bear. It is a shameful compulsion.

Shameful that you want the big numbers on your gear? Or shameful that you, as a bear, even need gear?

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

Shameful that you want the big numbers on your gear? Or shameful that you, as a bear, even need gear?

It is both. It is a double barrel of shame.

 

[Squilookle]

a core mechanic of the genre. By that I mean a mechanic that is intrinsically linked to the genre itself, something that can't really be changed without simply shifting to a different genre all together.

And -that- is exactly the kind of thinking that keeps me away from RPGs. Why can't it be changed? What's stopping a developer from doing it differently? The way I see it, as long as it's a Game that allows you to Play a Role, then it's an RPG. The way you brought up mages like it's an obvious core example of the genre to mention is the same thing. Why not an RPG without leveling? Why not one without all the same tired magical races? Why not really mix it up and do one without magic altogether?

You can do all of those and it would still be an RPG just fine. But everyone's so terrified of departing from the Tolkien book of world-design that they all think RPGs have to all be made basically the same.

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

I'm coming from that in two aspects. As a ex-personal trainer, and as a self described Loot-Whore.

The video mainly highlights the reason why loot systems only work for endgame. What's the point in getting an orange drop in Borderlands at level 10 when it will be useless in a couple levels? What the video doesn't bring up is the fact loot systems end up wasting so much of the player's time. You're constantly in your inventory switching weapons and gear for slightly better versions that don't change gameplay but only change numbers. Then, you sell all the obsolete crap for money that you really don't need anyway since you find everything looting obviously. Souls, on the flip side, does actually avoid this trap by upgrading stuff so you can settle with your weapon of choice for the whole game. Witcher 3 basically goes half-cock with its loot system as it has one for the 1st 15 levels or so, then you can use Witcher Gear sets that you just upgrade every few levels and the loot system is then basically bypassed.

I'm going to use an example of this process done right.

I'm going to use the Torchlight Series.

There's a good reason for the Orange Drop. Because you haven't reached the particular build you are aiming for yet. Your Berserker skill of Glacial Shatter is literally real time days away from getting here, and you got that Orange Drop that will give you chain lightning. Awesome. You've always liked CC and AOE damage, this will do nicely until then.

Because White Drops are just regular weapons. And you need that that spread damage.

It's a min-maxing trade off. It's akin to gambling. There's always possibly something better if I grind that boss one more time (Borderlands) or if I tackle that endless dungeon and get a little deeper. And bonus, looking for it will get me closer to Glacial Shatter.

Also, yeah, let's talk about str/dex/wis requirements. You're going to go up in level. This is like when someone walks into my home, sees my kettlebells and says "Holy shit, you can do cleans to overhead push press [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNwMVXuF8C0] with a 70 pound kettlebell?"

I tell them, yes, yes I can.

Then they look at the 25 pounds pair I have next to the 70's and ask "So why do you have those?"

I usually look at them oddly and ask "Do you think I was just able to do that heavy weight from birth? I had to train to be able to move that 70 pound weight safely. That's why I have the 25 lbs, the 35, the 45, the 50, and the 60 lbs next to them as well."

And that Orange item can maybe hold you for four levels. That's huge. There are specific runs in Dark Souls where you don't upgrade or use anything but your starting weapon... but that's for props. It's to inflate difficulty. And if that's your way of playing, have at it. Some of us do like the power creep. Of walking into a room full of monsters with our gear and stats on high and laugh about how a few days ago, I wouldn't have lasted ten seconds. And now they can't even damage me in any perceivable fashion.

But getting back to leveling, you can find a blue drop in two more levels that will put that Orange item to shame. But you need to be able to wield it, like anything in life.

That's not a defect of the programming. That's a benefit.

The randomization means you never know what you're going to get. You can even have a leveling path laid out in your mind, but then you've see what lightning does because of an item you picked up. And surprise, surprise, you have some passives that even increases Lightning damage or makes it proc more frequently. So you have to grind in a different direction, getting stronger in other ways as well.

It's a way to show you everything the game has to offer and get you thinking outside the box.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Magic is the obvious go-to for adding diverse gameplay to levelling, its even where stuff like Skyrim's basically placebo-effect leveling makes a rare change.

This is, and bear with me here, because RPGs and even games in general do regular combat like a pile of garbage with no creativity or depth to it. Even D&D falls into the trap, its been awhile since I played the old game, but I distinctly recall that while mages and so on get an ever increasing versatility of spells, fighters are prettymuch reliant on getting their +3 longswords to even remotely advance.

PnP RPGs are much more reliant on movement and positioning like you'll get feats to move with an enemy or move an enemy so you can get your full attack action in or cause the enemy to be flanked. There isn't really moves to execute or any dexterity needed like a video game because you can't really bring a sword with you and show the DM your awesome sword swing and be like my character did that. Also, PnP games usually feature much less fighting than video games. Whereas video RPGs usually over-emphasize combat and don't really make very good combat systems, especially the action RPGs.

And -that- is exactly the kind of thinking that keeps me away from RPGs. Why can't it be changed? What's stopping a developer from doing it differently? The way I see it, as long as it's a Game that allows you to Play a Role, then it's an RPG. The way you brought up mages like it's an obvious core example of the genre to mention is the same thing. Why not an RPG without leveling? Why not one without all the same tired magical races? Why not really mix it up and do one without magic altogether?

You can do all of those and it would still be an RPG just fine. But everyone's so terrified of departing from the Tolkien book of world-design that they all think RPGs have to all be made basically the same.

Exactly this. So many things are just carried over from game to game just because that's how its always been done instead of asking if that actually makes sense for the game. Like Witcher 3's loot system makes no sense or Octopath Traveler's random battles make no sense. Random battles were originally implemented due to hardware limitations, we're far past those limitations. Geralt is a master witcher at the start of Witcher 3, he can use a level 5 sword for crying out loud. RPGs don't necessarily need progression, you can role-play as a master witcher or ninja all game or perhaps role-play as someone that starts out as a master but actually regresses due to age and you have to pick what to lose vs what to gain. Not every RPG needs a crafting system if it doesn't make the game any better, TLOU had a more useful and functional crafting system than the vast majority of RPGs because it was simple yet integral to the game. Having to keep like a wheel from a wheel-barrel in your inventory because it just might be used to craft something later on isn't very engaging.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

I'm coming from that in two aspects. As a ex-personal trainer, and as a self described Loot-Whore.

I'm going to use an example of this process done right.

I'm going to use the Torchlight Series.

There's a good reason for the Orange Drop. Because you haven't reached the particular build you are aiming for yet. Your Berserker skill of Glacial Shatter is literally real time days away from getting here, and you got that Orange Drop that will give you chain lightning. Awesome. You've always liked CC and AOE damage, this will do nicely until then.

Because White Drops are just regular weapons. And you need that that spread damage.

It's a min-maxing trade off. It's akin to gambling. There's always possibly something better if I grind that boss one more time (Borderlands) or if I tackle that endless dungeon and get a little deeper. And bonus, looking for it will get me closer to Glacial Shatter.

Also, yeah, let's talk about str/dex/wis requirements. You're going to go up in level. This is like when someone walks into my home, sees my kettlebells and says "Holy shit, you can do cleans to overhead push press [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNwMVXuF8C0] with a 70 pound kettlebell?"

I tell them, yes, yes I can.

Then they look at the 25 pounds pair I have next to the 70's and ask "So why do you have those?"

I usually look at them oddly and ask "Do you think I was just able to do that heavy weight from birth? I had to train to be able to move that 70 pound weight safely. That's why I have the 25 lbs, the 35, the 45, the 50, and the 60 lbs next to them as well."

And that Orange item can maybe hold you for four levels. That's huge. There are specific runs in Dark Souls where you don't upgrade or use anything but your starting weapon... but that's for props. It's to inflate difficulty. And if that's your way of playing, have at it. Some of us do like the power creep. Of walking into a room full of monsters with our gear and stats on high and laugh about how a few days ago, I wouldn't have lasted ten seconds. And now they can't even damage me in any perceivable fashion.

But getting back to leveling, you can find a blue drop in two more levels that will put that Orange item to shame. But you need to be able to wield it, like anything in life.

That's not a defect of the programming. That's a benefit.

The randomization means you never know what you're going to get. You can even have a leveling path laid out in your mind, but then you've see what lightning does because of an item you picked up. And surprise, surprise, you have some passives that even increases Lightning damage or makes it proc more frequently. So you have to grind in a different direction, getting stronger in other ways as well.

It's a way to show you everything the game has to offer and get you thinking outside the box.

But then that say Orange Drop wand that gives you chain lightning will be obsolete in a few levels and you'll just have to find another one that does the same thing to continue playing as you want. Just let the player use that the whole game until they find a better drop that say chains to 5 enemies now instead of 4. Any loot found before endgame is pretty useless in an hour or so, just fix that part of it. I got no problem with loot when it doesn't become useless or forces me to do needless inventory management.

The kettlebell analogy really only works for strength-based weapons where I can understand the character getting stronger and being able to use a bigger hammer. However, why does the previous hammer become useless then? Why can't that now lighter hammer be just as useful because your character can then swing it faster for more attacks vs using a heavier hammer that does higher damage per attack but does fewer attacks over time? It sorta doesn't make much sense for dex-based weapons like why would a rogue start out with some dull ass dagger. I understand getting more money as a character and affording nicer weapons but you shouldn't have to constantly be changing out your weapons and gear like you do in most games. You should mainly want to change out weapons because they give bonuses (like you mentioned) to certain things that enhance your playstyle vs them just dealing more damage.

 

[Saelune]

I think what helps the loot grind is a decent crafting and/or upgrade system. Ya know, so maybe you get a super rare at lower levels, useless at later levels, so if you could scrap it for stuff to upgrade future stuff INTO better stuff, that could be good.

I like opening loot boxes, I just don't like paying for them. Loot boxes - Microtransactions = Alright by me.

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

But then that say Orange Drop wand that gives you chain lightning will be obsolete in a few levels and you'll just have to find another one that does the same thing to continue playing as you want. Just let the player use that the whole game until they find a better drop that say chains to 5 enemies now instead of 4. Any loot found before endgame is pretty useless in an hour or so, just fix that part of it. I got no problem with loot when it doesn't become useless or forces me to do needless inventory management.

The kettlebell analogy really only works for strength-based weapons where I can understand the character getting stronger and being able to use a bigger hammer. However, why does the previous hammer become useless then? Why can't that now lighter hammer be just as useful because your character can then swing it faster for more attacks vs using a heavier hammer that does higher damage per attack but does fewer attacks over time? It sorta doesn't make much sense for dex-based weapons like why would a rogue start out with some dull ass dagger. I understand getting more money as a character and affording nicer weapons but you shouldn't have to constantly be changing out your weapons and gear like you do in most games. You should mainly want to change out weapons because they give bonuses (like you mentioned) to certain things that enhance your playstyle vs them just dealing more damage.

But then where's the actual growth of the character? Part of the fun for some of these people IS unlocking new skills. And sometimes, these items acts as previews.

That's especially helpful if you were always a sword and board type of player and you're just stepping your toe into anything with magic. You always heard of Fireball so you figured you'd spec to that. But then you got this Chain Lightning. And that was amazing. But a few dungeons later, you received a belt that creates an ice aura that slows and damages enemies around you. Now you're left with one of two problems. Do you cancel the spec to Chain Lightning to get the ice aura because you like that better? Well, you don't have to choose to do so because you can just keep an item with that ability on you at all times.

Or the other problem is if your character even gets that ability. No? Well, yay for this item.

I like working to my powers. I've worked for my abilities in real life, and I like feeling that I've earned the ability to do X, Y, and Z. I get that some people don't like it, and it's an understandable position. But then it's just that. A position. That doesn't mean leveling or items are inherently stupid because you might not enjoy and/or get the idea of it. It's just a game design that you don't like. For a Looter game... I mean, that's the draw. People LIKE finding new stuff. People like min-maxing their stats and gear to be the Uber-est.

Keep in mind, there are a lot of games that does not do this (RNG item drops). So the answer might be just as easy as games that do this aren't right for you. Like fo rme personally, I do not get sports games. At all. Because I can't take a gun and repel an alien invasion. But I can sign up for my local football club and play some damn football. Football games on their own aren't dumb because I don't get it or like the idea. They just aren't for me.

Actually, the Kettlebell is often used for Flexibility [https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=kettlebell+flexibility], or as one might say, to increase dexterity.

Well, I actually train in Kali [http://www.functionalselfdefense.org/kali/], so I can give you a real life answer. If permitted where I live, I might keep an extendable baton on me for every day self defense. The pros of it are that I could keep it on my body at all times, but the con is that while faster and easier to manipulate than my 32 inch sticks, that also comes with the problem of finer movements tend to wear out muscles quicker. Fast and precise is actually really, REALLY taxing on the muscles. I might out pain someone with my expandable baton and they will decide to leave. Or, I can get my metal 32 inch stick and one hit quit them.

And in efforts of real life protection... Yeah, the one hit quit makes the most sense. It's not always plausible, and since everyone is different, it's almost impractical to bet your life on. But if you're in a situation where you have to fight for your well being, you want to conserve your energy as much as possible. Because of unpredictability. You don't know if this guy is the only guy you're going to face now. You don't know if he has a glass jaw or can easily rope-a-dope you.

Now, given the style, of COURSE I train for multiple flowing strikes. The concept needs a happy medium. Three solid strikes that will cause someone to lose effectiveness. Like an Abaniko to the temple, bash to the kneecap, jab to the hip complex. You don't need to knock them out, but give enough force in multiple areas that actually continuing the battle doesn't seem possible from their perception.

And to your actual weapon changing... It's just a carrot on the stick. Keep playing and look at how uber you can become! Doesn't that sound worth the 5 hours to get an even better wooden staff made of a magical, mystical tree?

I like to grind. So yes. Yes, it does. But to me. I absolutely get why it wouldn't sound great to others.

 

[SupahEwok]

Loot with better numbers dropping all the time creates a constant feedback loop of progress and achievement. That's really it. Lots of people like it. Shame if you don't.

 

[sXeth]

Magic is the obvious go-to for adding diverse gameplay to levelling, its even where stuff like Skyrim's basically placebo-effect leveling makes a rare change.

This is, and bear with me here, because RPGs and even games in general do regular combat like a pile of garbage with no creativity or depth to it. Even D&D falls into the trap, its been awhile since I played the old game, but I distinctly recall that while mages and so on get an ever increasing versatility of spells, fighters are prettymuch reliant on getting their +3 longswords to even remotely advance.

PnP RPGs are much more reliant on movement and positioning like you'll get feats to move with an enemy or move an enemy so you can get your full attack action in or cause the enemy to be flanked. There isn't really moves to execute or any dexterity needed like a video game because you can't really bring a sword with you and show the DM your awesome sword swing and be like my character did that. Also, PnP games usually feature much less fighting than video games. Whereas video RPGs usually over-emphasize combat and don't really make very good combat systems, especially the action RPGs.

Thats more your individual experience. I've had a ton of exposure to PnP players, and it goes all over the place. Some basicall ignore combat entirely, others literally play them as tactics games, some crazy nuts even play them as PvP games (Absolutely bloody horrible in D&D, by the by).

Now, with the disclaimer of not having muddled much in it since 3.5/earl 4e. You can flank, but thats just a better hit chance. Parrying, riposting, targeting limbs, different styles of attacks (like bludgeoning a skeleton with the flat of a sword to get by the damage resistance), offhand throwing weapons, shield bashing, use of legs, environmental attacks are all mainly ignored in D&D for fighters, at best surfacing in homebrew or as expansion prestige class features. If you want much alternative or boost to what a fighter does you primarily are just going to flatout have to get a sword with some sort of perks to it. MEenwhile on the mage's side there's a thousand odd spells ranging from utility to direct damage to do all sorts of things with.