The ism's in gaming

[jdguy]

Well now that fat princess is getting a surprising amount of heat, and RE5 made people suddenly want the black zombies to win, I wanna know what people think of the topic of the ism's in gaming.

Personally I'm 7/8ths white, with the last eight being Native American, which gets me a surprisingly large amount of perks, so I do think my stance on the subject is a little biast but anyways.

I think that the Ism topic is an issue that does plague the video game world. There are far to many blond sex objects that need resucing (even if they never put out), too many witty ethnic side kicks, and when ever a female character does start taking charge she becomes so emotionally void that you hate her over loving her.

Now I don't think the buzz games of RE5 and fat princess are the correct targets to choose. I hate the argument over RE5 and hate it even more now that Capcom caved. Putting white people in Africa??? No one complained when the Spanish zombies where butchered, and if it would have been in lets say Austrialia I don't think any one would have said a word about it either.

Now Fat Princess is a game that I am honestly confused stirred up any trouble, its a cutsie cheapo game made by a woman... would the game have caused any spark if it was changed to "fat king" or the like.

With Heavenly Sword, Princess Peach, and how ever many other negitive sterotypes for women, and lets not forget ethnic groups... are these two games really the biggest worrie?

Sorry for the circle ranting i'm a bit pissed and suffering from towel trick blues at the moment.

 

[The Wooster]

Don't want to come off as an adbot (EAT AT JOES!) but i wrote a little something about this. You know where.

now it seems the garden variety gamer, once happy with simply a new Mario game every few years and enough cheetos and mountain dew to keep him/her alive has now decided that 'they ain't gonna stand for it anymore', 'it' in this case being any and every issue they can get their grubby little minds round.
All of a sudden Fat Princess has portly feminists up in arms because it has the gall to feature a character that is both a girl, and fat [http://kotaku.com/gaming/zombie-racism/black-looks-on-re-5-racism-284725.php]. The humanity.
Now don't get me wrong. There's plenty of things wrong the gaming industry today,just about every game marketed towards girls happens to be complete crap [http://zara.switzerlan.org/images/sccharacters.jpg] but I can't help think that perhaps we're... you know... taking this all a bit too seriously.

[http://doctorpus.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/nowarforpowerpellets.gif]

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Well...

Heavenly Sword is almost a chauvenist/homo-erotic stereotype as well. Riding giant collapsing columns into a group of well oiled men working out.

Princess Peach is the Monarch of a Race of other people, so she may not even be human.

But in general, they're all Tropes [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VideogameTropes] rather than stereotypes.

Just like the Grizzled Space Marine you play in every sci-fi shooter.

 

[KapnKerfuffle]

I'm bothered by the portrayal of every male on TV as the amoral buffoon. But who going to give a shit about that?

 

[Copter400]

To anyone who has ever been seriously offended by anything ever shown in a video game, ever: Man up, Nancy.

 

[Imperator_2]

Twould be nice if the Master Chief(a stereotypical soldier---oh noes!) used them all for target practice...

 

[Brett Alex]

Well...

Heavenly Sword is almost a chauvenist/homo-erotic stereotype as well. Riding giant collapsing columns into a group of well oiled men working out.

Princess Peach is the Monarch of a Race of other people, so she may not even be human.

But in general, they're all Tropes [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VideogameTropes] rather than stereotypes.

Just like the Grizzled Space Marine you play in every sci-fi shooter.

Yeah I got to agree with this.

I don't think there are any faceless corporations trying to propagate stereotypes, I just think that characters end up being like this because its convenient for the plot and gameplay mechanics, easy and the general public are prepared to accept it.
Same with a sitcom. Try and name a half a dozen sitcoms with smart, fit, caring and selfless male leads who couldn't give a toss about either sport or alcohol or sex. Now try name a few sitcoms where the male protagonists are overweight, buffoon like, egotistical, love either sport, sex, alcohol or all three and who are improbably married to attractive women. Sure I've gone slightly off topic now, but the idea remains the same, the consumers don't want a sudden break neck change or subversion of tropes.

 

[LisaB1138]

It always amuses me when men try to pull out stereotypes and say they're "victims" as well. It only happens in threads like this. I mean, I've never seen a "men's group" ally to say they refuse to buy GeOW2 because they're tired of being dressed up in armor and stubble and shoot things or refuse to watch Family Guy because Peter is such a fat, boorish jerk, and there's no way Lois would put up with that. "That's just not who we are!"

You know why there's not some male outcry? Because the "men's groups" are the ones making the games and the TV shows. You know it, and I know it. So when women control the gaming industry and make games about grizzled space marines or TV sitcoms with boorish males, then you get to say you're being stereotyped, then you get to say you're being trivialized or reduced to a gigantic penis for someone else's thrill even though a giant penis has absolutely nothing to do with the game and would be considered a huge liability in a fight if it were real.

Yeah, I'm a woman, and I have issues with female characters who are dressed only to fulfill male sexual fantasy. (I'm sure someone will pop in to mention such attire pleasing the lesbian gaming crowd, but we all know that while that group might benefit as well, that is not why the women in Soul Caliber VI are dressed like they are.)

Gaming is about fantasy and idealization. It's just that only one fantasy ever gets fulfilled. Men get to kick butt, take names, save the world and get the girl (or be the classic loner. "You don't want to get mixed up with a guy like me, Dotty. I'm a loner, a rebel.")

Woman might get to kick butt, take names, and save the world, but only if undressed to a certain degree. There are a few exceptions, of course, but only one real success, I think: Samus from Metroid. But then guys didn't even know she was female until the game was over.

 

[Erana]

Lets all petition for a flat-chested hero who is not jaded about it!

There are a few exceptions, of course, but only one real success, I think: Samus from Metroid. But then guys didn't even know she was female until the game was over.

Well, its society's fault for assuming that she was a he...

... Well, that and the official Nintendo guide booklet.

 

[afrophysics]

I often find tokenism to be more offensive than playing up to stereotypes, which i rarely find to be a problem. Not that I find anything in gaming particularly offensive, I just think that if you are going to throw a hissy over race/ gender/ disability issues etc it should be to prevent tokenism, not break stereotypes. I don't see why so many people feel that developers should find a stereotype and do the exact opposite, and then whine if they don't.

 

[WlknCntrdiction]

To anyone who has ever been seriously offended by anything ever shown in a video game, ever: Man up, Nancy.

What he said^^^^

Seriously people, it's a video game. You would think that adults would put video games into context with owning a house, bringing up children, paying off the mortgage and.........OMG theres a game called fat princess that puts fat people in a bad light and I have to be vocal about it because I'm insecure about my weight and want people to know that I'm "offended", but I'm not really, I'm just insecure and can't be assed to do anything about my weight so I use the game as a scapegoat to make myself feel big(pun intended lol).

Video games in the grand scheme of things are insignificant, why you would ever be "offended" by a game calls into your insecurities about yourself, and those who are all up in arms about RE5 are the ones who are most racist, when I saw it was in Africa I didn't instantly think "Africa, black people, racist", it's like those people who make sexual references out of everything, your mind was there thinking about it, not mine, don't drag my mind into the gutter with yours.

It seems to be a common theme nowadays that it's always someone elses fault that things are bad:

"It's the school and governments fault that my child is unruly, doesn't listen to me and is out on the streets selling drugs, not mine", say the irresponible parents,

"It's the hospitals and societys' fault for labeling me fat and not doing anything to help me lose weight, not mine", says the fat chick with low self esteem,

"It's the games that make young kids go out and murder people, not the lack of good parenting", says Jack Thompson, and other deluded politicians.

If people could just take the blame for something for once in their lives then maybe things would be a little different, sad to say that it's human nature to blame anybody else but yourselves so I guess I'd be asking for a miracle really for that to change anytime soon, well at least not in my lifetime.

 

[Danny Ocean]

Long post

QFT.

 

[OurGloriousLeader]

It always amuses me when men try to pull out stereotypes and say they're "victims" as well. It only happens in threads like this. I mean, I've never seen a "men's group" ally to say they refuse to buy GeOW2 because they're tired of being dressed up in armor and stubble and shoot things or refuse to watch Family Guy because Peter is such a fat, boorish jerk, and there's no way Lois would put up with that. "That's just not who we are!"

You know why there's not some male outcry? Because the "men's groups" are the ones making the games and the TV shows. You know it, and I know it. So when women control the gaming industry and make games about grizzled space marines or TV sitcoms with boorish males, then you get to say you're being stereotyped, then you get to say you're being trivialized or reduced to a gigantic penis for someone else's thrill even though a giant penis has absolutely nothing to do with the game and would be considered a huge liability in a fight if it were real.

Yeah, I'm a woman, and I have issues with female characters who are dressed only to fulfill male sexual fantasy. (I'm sure someone will pop in to mention such attire pleasing the lesbian gaming crowd, but we all know that while that group might benefit as well, that is not why the women in Soul Caliber VI are dressed like they are.)

Gaming is about fantasy and idealization. It's just that only one fantasy ever gets fulfilled. Men get to kick butt, take names, save the world and get the girl (or be the classic loner. "You don't want to get mixed up with a guy like me, Dotty. I'm a loner, a rebel.")

Woman might get to kick butt, take names, and save the world, but only if undressed to a certain degree. There are a few exceptions, of course, but only one real success, I think: Samus from Metroid. But then guys didn't even know she was female until the game was over.

It's not about 'men's groups' or 'women's groups' making anything, anymore. Social stereotypes don't necessarily originate with any sex, but mainly, you know, from society. Feminism's main worry (in the West) now is socialisation, not women's rights etc. The image of thin women, make-up, sex, propagated by women's magazines (made by women!) Somehow this becomes men's fault, because we are enforcing this image, but this no more true than it's women's fault for enforcing the grizzled all American hero or the fat, beer guzzler.

That's just what the stereotypes are. No-one's fault.

 

[LisaB1138]

You don't see the difference, do you? Women's magazines are for women by women. Therefore, yes, we take full responsibility for them. Unrealistic standard of beauty? Maybe, but hey, it can't hurt to try. And some are actually quite self-aware of this double-standard we live with. One reason I like Allure is because it's very in your face obvious about "this is what we do to ourselves."

Games, on the other hand, are made by men. Oh, I'm sure there's the odd female working for a developer, but when was the last time you saw an article featuring a female game designer that didn't have to do with the fact she was a female?

You are correct in that stereotypes develop from society, but there's such a thing as reinforcement of negative stereotypes, you know? As a woman and a mother of 3 boys who spend their free time playing games, I don't think it's too much to ask for more than a few women characters who wear something that at least appears marginally functional.

 

[OurGloriousLeader]

I don't see the difference because there is no difference. I'm not sure who you're blaming here. The majority of games designers will be men, for various reasons - stereotypical computer-geekery and whatnot. But they make women attractive bimbos because they sell, and it's these games that generally have the Conan manbimbo as well.

The thing is, each game generally has similar approaches to characters. Either, each character is a 2D, MAN man or TITS woman, or they have properly developed characters for both the sexes.

But anyway, to summarise: just because the male demographic in game design is high, doesn't mean we can't complain about male stereotyping. THAT'S SEXIST.

 

[WlknCntrdiction]

I like my women with abit of meat on them, just not fat. It's hard to tell where to draw the line because to me someone who has abit of meat on them may appear to someone else to be fat.
And I don't go for fat women because it says to me that:

1. They obviously don't care about their own health, otherwise they wouldn't be so obese and
2. They probably don't have alot of self esteem, maybe due to problems they have but then their body has paid for it by them comfort eating or what have you until they have become obese, if they can't sort out their own problems then I'm not going to for them.

Those are logical reasons why I'm not attracted to obese women, they may not be "logical" to you but then we're all different and all have different interests in what we look for in the opposite sex.

 

[mshcherbatskaya]

I'm bothered by the portrayal of every male on TV as the amoral buffoon. But who going to give a shit about that?

I do.

Even if I were a mythical man-hating feminist, which I'm not or I wouldn't spend so much time on a 90% male site, I would say that the assumption that men are naturally amoral buffoons who are congenitally incapable of any sort of domestic activity lets men get away with acting like amoral buffoons. Now let's be clear about this. What I just typed is one possible critique and I do not agree with it.

My brand of feminism is the "sexism sucks for everybody, but it sucks for some people more than others" variety. I hate the way society seems to expect the worst from men, especially young men. Joeshie pointed out to me that boys are being squeezed out of the educational system, in part because most of the teachers in public schools are women. (I'm not entirely sold on the idea but I certainly think he has a point.) I'm not going to go into the pink-collar ghettoization of raising and educating the young and its apparent correspondance with shitty wages, but I would hold it up as an example of the fact that sexism sucks for everyone.

It's in the nature of videogames to be exaggerated. The characters are exaggerated, the situations are exaggerated, the weapons are exaggerated, and the tropes are exaggerated. This makes them an easy target and the arguments about them also become exaggerated. I think the fact that we are taking them too seriously (again, an idea I'm not sold on but I will concede the point) is in part a reflection of the fact that we don't take video games seriously enough. If we did, then the debate over this would be more serious and less of an ideological flamewar, because it wouldn't be dominated by the wingnuts who will flip out about everything. Other people would get involved, there would be serious examination of the subject. As it is, yeah, these arguments have a bad case of Teh Dumb and don't benefit anybody.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I agree with the critique of how women are portrayed in the media - by women as well as men, I just don't agree with the methods of argument, which I think are polarizing. Women are sexist to each other. But when a group that's largely male catering to a group that's largely male consistantly serves up a big, steaming piles of warped feminine ideals, that's a Bad Thing. It's also a Bad Thing in that these games reinforce warped masculine ideals. BUT, women are doing something about it, which is to say, consistantly criticizing this gaming bullshit and men, for the most part, aren't.

So I'll say to you what I say to women who ***** about sexism even as they gobble it up.

If it seriously bothers you as a man, do something about it or shut up.

 

[Danny Ocean]

especially young men. Joeshie pointed out to me that boys are being squeezed out of the educational system, in part because most of the teachers in public schools are women. (I'm not entirely sold on the idea but I certainly think he has a point.)

Yes!
*Joins fanclub.*
(It's also this that and the other, but that's for another thread.)

 

[mshcherbatskaya]

especially young men. Joeshie pointed out to me that boys are being squeezed out of the educational system, in part because most of the teachers in public schools are women. (I'm not entirely sold on the idea but I certainly think he has a point.)

Yes!
*Joins fanclub.*
(It's also this that and the other, but that's for another thread.)

I think what I'm going call this splashback. Shit on other groups of people enough times, you're gonna get shit on your ass too.

Also, the vast majority of -ism are not consciously enacted. I don't know of any straight white men who wake up and think, "Whee! I get to oppress people today." The problem is that we've inherited a tremendous amount of cultural crap from our colonial, genocidal, racist, sexist past and all we need to do to keep it going is Nothing. If you do nothing, it'll keep happening. Just going about your life not working against it perpetuates it. That why I say put up or shut up. Put your activism where your mouth is and help a group of which you are not a member get out from under these -isms and I guarantee you will benefit in the long run.

 

[Theo Samaritan]

I gave up on 'isms when I realised that while it is true men can also be the victim women more often than not get the benefit of the doubt. This applies to court and law as well as general society.