The Last of Us is no Masterpiece

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Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

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I never got to playing The Last of Us on PS3, but I just played it a couple weeks back on PS4. The game is great but not Game of the Year or Best Game EVER!!! awesome.

Let me get the good stuff out of the way first. TLOU's story is actually quite good and holds up unlike most games that are renowned for their good stories. There's very very few games where I feel the writing is actually good because writing in games is so bad that any game that doesn't have shit writing gets so overrated just due to it not being shit. There was only one cliche part in the whole story:
After you take out the gun with the gun in the house, then all the infected come out attacking Ellie, Henry, and Sam as they get to Joel's position. The second Henry asks if everyone is OK, I just knew Sam had been bit.
The characters are really well done and the game almost feels like a mini-character study on both Joel and Ellie. Ellie's gameplay sections are really great and do for Ellie what the new Tomb Raider game couldn't do for Lara. The overall gameplay itself has a great visceral feel to it.

Now onto the not-so-good stuff:

- The friendly AI is just horrible. I'm not even mainly talking about the whole thing about friendlies just running around in front of enemies, which is an issue. I don't get why the friendlies can't stay a piece of cover behind you instead of trying to move past you thus looking like idiots, it's something so simple to do. I'm mainly talking about how bad they are in combat. One of the times playing as Ellie, I noticed the guy I was with literally turned around and started walking up some steps as an infected came running to him. There's a time when you're in a cabin as infected come in from both sides and you have to cover both sides because you can't cover one side while the AI covers the other side because the AI is horribly incompetent. There was even one point when I had to reload the game because a character was walking into chest high piece of cover and he needed to move to trigger the cutscene. Enemy AI does some weird things as well.

- There are a few sections of the game where player agency is taken away from you. There's a point where there's a guy with a rifle in the 2nd level of a house shooting at you and you have to move down the block to take him out, it's a good setup and all. HOWEVER, the sequence is so SCRIPTED. Firstly, you can't take out the guy with the rifle until you actually get in the house he's in. Joel's plan is for the others to distract the rifleman (again, good setup) as Joel gets to the house but the rifleman always knows where Joel is. There's this wall (at exactly 4:20 in the linked video) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSG-N-K6hI4] that once you jump over, enemies come out no matter what you've done beforehand. The game forces combat and action on you for no reason, and you actually can't carry out Joel's plan just because the game wants you to play through the section a certain way. The other section is similar as you have move towards a guy with a spotlight, you can use stealth all the way and reach under the spotlight. The little triangle prompt even comes up on the door you have to go through, but the door won't open until you take out the spotlight guy thus causing several enemies to notice and drop down where you then have to take them out for no reason, action and combat is forced upon the player.

- Naughty Dog just needs to fucking stop using yellow as a tip-off for where you have to go. I've noticed this since Uncharted, all you have to do is go towards the thing with yellow tape or yellow paint and that's where you need to go. It became quite immersion breaking for me in TLOU, even the Capitol Building you head to has yellow on it. The yellow bridge is the one thing that gets the pass as it is actually yellow. Just in the 1st minute of this video [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbPeTxCGGIE] you'll see where you have to put the plank is yellow (a yellow strip and a freaking yellow sign on the building you're going to) and you see the Capitol building in the distance has yellow. Naughty Dog's games are freaking linear as shit, I don't need such blatant help in where to go next.

- Level design is still pretty obvious for when there's going to be a shooting section. When you get to Tommy's place in the game, there's chest high cover EVERYWHERE and you just know that there's going to be a combat section even though it may be the safest place in the whole game.

- Naughty Dog still doesn't understand how to make a 3rd-person shooter. The contextual cover system doesn't work (contextual anything control-wise doesn't work). It takes several tries bumping into the wall to take cover the way you want to with Joel 1) taking cover to begin with and 2) taking cover while over the correct shoulder. For example, if take cover along the left corner of a building, I want to be looking over my left shoulder, not right shoulder. Naughty Dog still doesn't know how to properly implement a shoulder swap in their games, you can shoulder swap AFTER aiming but you can't aim off your left shoulder INITIALLY. This is the case all the way since Uncharted. The free look camera is sluggish as hell and you can't change its sensitivity, it's so sluggish there's a control to turn around. You aim with the free look camera in a TPS; when you press L1/L2 to aim, your reticule should be on the enemy already. I'll give TLOU a slight pass with this because it's a survival game so it just might've been done on purpose, but I'm not fan games limiting natural human abilities to make the game scarier or more tense, humans are already feeble enough. All the Uncharted's are the same, and those games have no excuses. Lastly, the stealth grab is contextual for some reason and Joel quite often will not grab an enemy when the Triangle prompt is up and you can grab enemies quite often as they walk by you in cover but the Triangle prompt doesn't come up. Metal Gear Solid has done grabbing perfectly fine, without a 2-handed gun equipped, you press the shoot button to grab no matter if there's an enemy there or not, I don't get why other games can't learn something so simple to do.

- Listen mode is just game breaking as seeing through walls (especially in an unlimited capacity) in a game with stealth just breaks the game. Thank god you can play with it off. I just don't understand why it's even a mechanic because you can just fucking listen to the surround sound and know where enemies are, it's just so pointless. You can turn it off, but not in multiplayer.

- Lastly, a minor nitpick. The skills in the game are shitty. The only decent ones are the Shiv and weapon sway skills.

---

I just don't get professional game reviews. There's so many objective flaws to TLOU that you have to take off points, but only 10 of the 98 reviews on Metacritic gave TLOU below a 9/10. I feel the game connected with me just as well as it could for anyone, I had a blast playing it for the most part and loved the characters and story. However, I'd only score the game somewhere between 7.5-8.5/10 just due to the game's flaws. Criticism is supposed to be about criticizing, not about saying how awesome something is, which is what we get with game criticism.
 

tippy2k2

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Easy; because despite all of the flaws the game has, I still consider it one of my top contenders for game of the generation, let alone game of the year.

Some of your complaints I never noticed or didn't care about:

-The AI I thought was fine (it did act a little funny for me once in a while during stealth sections when Ellie would run out of cover, stare at the bad guys, then run back with no ill effect but it would be an incredibly frustrating stealth game if your AI partner goofing up could hurt you). I never had any problems with the AI

-The player agency thing I never noticed. Maybe some of the cool stuff I did was scripted, maybe I just did cool stuff. The bottom line is that I never noticed it so it did it's job for me.

-I never noticed the yellow thing. Next Naughty Dog game I pick up, I'm going to have to keep an eye out for that. That seems like pretty good design to me rather than a negative but that's just my opinion.

-I can give you the level design part but generally I only noticed that at that specific Trish section. I'm sure the game did it more than that but I never really noticed.

-I have no problem playing the game. I suppose I've played the other Naughty Dog titles so I'm very used to their 3rd person shooting style.

-I had no problem with listen mode. Most stealth games offer something like that and it did have it's downsides (you only see the enemy, it's easy to get "tunnel vision" doing it, you have to go slower to use it, etc.).

Are there a lot of problems that the game has? Yes. However, the positives heavily outweigh the negatives for me. I absolutely LOVE this game and I would recommend it in a heart beat to anyone with a PS3/PS4 that needs something to play. I'd almost go so far to say that you should buy a PS3 to play this game. Easily my Game of the Year and I would argue one of my top three favorite games period.

Now granted, I have only played it once (which is not uncommon for me; except for XCOM, there's really no game that I play more than once) so maybe if I did give it another go I would be more bothered by things and notice more problems but I for one love this game.
 

Casual Shinji

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Phoenixmgs said:
It became quite immersion breaking for me in TLOU, even the Capitol Building you head to has yellow to it.
That's because it's modeled after the actual Boston captital building, which has a big gold dome.

There was even one point when I had to reload the game because a character was walking into chest high piece of cover and he needed to move to trigger the cutscene.
I don't see how that's possible since A.I. partners in this game spawn right by you the moment you trigger any sort of "cutscene door" or boost-up. Seriously, they could be standing on the other side of the area, and the moment you need hold open a gate or boost someone up they're with you instantly.

As for the rest... Uhm, thank you for showing us the error of our ways?
 

Gethsemani_v1legacy

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Phoenixmgs said:
I just don't get professional game reviews. There's so many objective flaws to TLOU that you have to take off points, but only 10 of the 98 reviews on Metacritic gave TLOU below a 9/10. I feel the game connected with me just as well as it could for anyone, I had a blast playing it for the most part and loved the characters and story. However, I'd only score the game somewhere between 7.5-8.5/10 just due to the game's flaws. Criticism is supposed to be about criticizing, not about saying how awesome something is, which is what we get with game criticism.
Of the flaws you just highlighted there is possibly one that is "objective", that being the bad AI. But as someone who's on my third playthrough and never had the AI screw me over I can't really say it is unusually bad. So even that doesn't get a pass. The rest of your points are all subjective and very dependent on if you like Naughty Dogs design ethos or not, as someone who do I don't have a problem with most of the things that annoy you.

So instead of calling your own contentions objective flaws, how about you call it subjective flaws and we just agree to disagree? Because just as Tippy2k2 I consider TLOU to be the best game of 2013 and quite possibly the best game to come out of the last generation of consoles. Playing through the remastered version for PS4 has just reminded me why I loved the game to begin with.
 

stroopwafel

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Jul 16, 2013
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I think it's a really great game but 'masterpiece' maybe raises the wrong expectations. I mean, it's a fun game to play but for me Last of Us really showed how a good story can immerse you into the game that much more. What would have been just another third person shooter based on Resident Evil 4's template is elevated into a genuinely engrossing experience.

So yeah, Last of Us kinda hit all the right notes. Gameplay was fun, story was good and characters had depth. The reason that it received so much acclaim is that while many games have good gameplay, very few of them have an actually good story. The gaming industry just doesn't have a lot of good writers unfortunately.
 

Danny Dowling

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Shadow-Phoenix said:
I wonder when we'll ever get some positive forum topic, we've got at least 10 on the front forum page that are negative in some form or way, today looks like it isn't going to be that kind of day.
i'll start one. give me 5 minutes max but don't let it just die out
 

Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

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Diesel- said:
Its not. last of us is more of glorified hollywood movie ala cinematic experience rather than game.
There's not that many cutscenes, I don't recall any actual QTEs, and really no set-pieces either. It seems like you belong more on GFaqs calling games interactive movies instead of games.

tippy2k2 said:
-The AI I thought was fine (it did act a little funny for me once in a while during stealth sections when Ellie would run out of cover, stare at the bad guys, then run back with no ill effect but it would be an incredibly frustrating stealth game if your AI partner goofing up could hurt you). I never had any problems with the AI

-The player agency thing I never noticed. Maybe some of the cool stuff I did was scripted, maybe I just did cool stuff. The bottom line is that I never noticed it so it did it's job for me.

-I never noticed the yellow thing. Next Naughty Dog game I pick up, I'm going to have to keep an eye out for that. That seems like pretty good design to me rather than a negative but that's just my opinion.

-I have no problem playing the game. I suppose I've played the other Naughty Dog titles so I'm very used to their 3rd person shooting style.

-I had no problem with listen mode. Most stealth games offer something like that and it did have it's downsides (you only see the enemy, it's easy to get "tunnel vision" doing it, you have to go slower to use it, etc.).

Are there a lot of problems that the game has? Yes. However, the positives heavily outweigh the negatives for me. I absolutely LOVE this game and I would recommend it in a heart beat to anyone with a PS3/PS4 that needs something to play. I'd almost go so far to say that you should buy a PS3 to play this game. Easily my Game of the Year and I would argue one of my top three favorite games period.
- Just watch what the friendly AI does in a battle for not even a minute, it's just horribly incompetent.

- I'm not saying the stuff YOU did was scripted but the game forced action upon you in certain situations. Just watch the video (or play the game), the second you jump over that wall, the guy says "yeah, hide that house. see if that helps" and the enemies come pouring out every single time regardless of if it makes sense that he even saw you.

- It's poor design to tip-off to player where to constantly go especially in a linear game, there's only like one way to go anyways. I get the same feeling when someone talks down to you like you're a kid. I can figure out where I need to go on my own. It worked in Batman: Arkham Asylum with the Joker teeth because it's the fucking Joker and he probably would do that.

- I don't have much of a problem playing Naughty Dog's games either but I could play them so much better if the controls were better. The worst thing is they make the same mistakes over and over again. Even Susan said the controls in Uncharted suck while giving it 5 stars.

- Listen mode is pointless because you can just listen yourself to the audio.

I had a great experience with the game and loved most of it. But that doesn't mean it's 9-10 good either. Favorite is not the same as best. Guardians of the Galaxy will probably be my favorite movie this year, but it won't be the best.

Casual Shinji said:
That's because it's modeled after the actual Boston captital building, which has a big gold dome.
I didn't realize that, I did know the bridge is in fact yellow.

Gethsemani said:
Of the flaws you just highlighted there is possibly one that is "objective", that being the bad AI. But as someone who's on my third playthrough and never had the AI screw me over I can't really say it is unusually bad. So even that doesn't get a pass. The rest of your points are all subjective and very dependent on if you like Naughty Dogs design ethos or not, as someone who do I don't have a problem with most of the things that annoy you.
So when you get to Tommy's and see all those chest-high pieces of cover, you didn't instantly know there was going to be cover? And that's somehow not objectively bad level design? Level design is supposed to feel organic. Or the sections where the game takes away player agency, that I even linked to in a video (not mine BTW), is only subjective as well?

Gundam GP01 said:
I dont think I'm going to give your opinion much weight considering that you hate Dark Souls, one of my favorite games in recent memory.
One thing a Dark Souls fan never could answer is why is Dark Souls the only game where when you have a shield up (not locked-on) and move backwards, you character turns around instead of backpedaling? That one little thing that seems very minor makes it so you can't fight more than one enemy at a time properly do to the game's dependence on its lock-on system. No other game has your character turn around when using a shield (or blocking in any sort of way), even MGS4 has better shield controls than Dark Souls.

stroopwafel said:
I think it's a really great game but 'masterpiece' maybe raises the wrong expectations. I mean, it's a fun game to play but for me Last of Us really showed how a good story can immerse you into the game that much more. What would have been just another third person shooter based on Resident Evil 4's template is elevated into a genuinely engrossing experience.

So yeah, Last of Us kinda hit all the right notes. Gameplay was fun, story was good and characters had depth. The reason that it received so much acclaim is that while many games have good gameplay, very few of them have an actually good story. The gaming industry just doesn't have a lot of good writers unfortunately.
I agree completely, but it doesn't deserve all the perfect scores it got. I'm more so trying to point out the horrible state of game criticism than knocking TLOU itself.

Shadow-Phoenix said:
I wonder when we'll ever get some positive forum topic, we've got at least 10 on the front forum page that are negative in some form or way, today looks like it isn't going to be that kind of day.
Uhh.... I loved TLOU.
 

Rozalia1

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Phoenixmgs said:
There's not that many cutscenes, I don't recall any actual QTEs, and really no set-pieces either. It seems like you belong more on GFaqs calling games interactive movies instead of games.
He is a PC exclusive guy with a biased combative attitude, he hasn't actually seen anything of the game if his other posts are any indication.

Phoenixmgs said:
- Listen mode is pointless because you can just listen yourself to the audio.
I've got some really damn good headphones I can use to listen to the audio, not everyone has. Some people aren't going to be able to make out directional sound simple as that.
 

Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

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Rozalia1 said:
Phoenixmgs said:
- Listen mode is pointless because you can just listen yourself to the audio.
I've got some really damn good headphones I can use to listen to the audio, not everyone has. Some people aren't going to be able to make out directional sound simple as that.
Right now I just have my 2 crappy PC speakers as my receiver has a cold solder joint and is in protect mode, and I can still make out where the enemies are by listening. You just need 2 good speakers really, all I hook up to my receiver are the left, right, and center speakers (plus sub) because you don't need to rears to hear stuff behind you.
 

Benpasko

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Phoenixmgs said:
One thing a Dark Souls fan never could answer is why is Dark Souls the only game where when you have a shield up (not locked-on) and move backwards, you character turns around instead of backpedaling? That one little thing that seems very minor makes it so you can't fight more than one enemy at a time properly do to the game's dependence on its lock-on system. No other game has your character turn around when using a shield (or blocking in any sort of way), even MGS4 has better shield controls than Dark Souls.
Because there's already strafing when you lock on, and playing unlocked is a much looser style. Shielding doesn't affect movement in DaS (you can still sprint, roll, backstep, what have you) like that, it'd be really jank to have it strafelock you. And any issues it gives you multi-target are on you. If you need to strafe against multiple targets, you need to learn how to flick between targets with lock-on effectively.
 

Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

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Benpasko said:
Phoenixmgs said:
One thing a Dark Souls fan never could answer is why is Dark Souls the only game where when you have a shield up (not locked-on) and move backwards, you character turns around instead of backpedaling? That one little thing that seems very minor makes it so you can't fight more than one enemy at a time properly do to the game's dependence on its lock-on system. No other game has your character turn around when using a shield (or blocking in any sort of way), even MGS4 has better shield controls than Dark Souls.
Because there's already strafing when you lock on, and playing unlocked is a much looser style. Shielding doesn't affect movement in DaS (you can still sprint, roll, backstep, what have you) like that, it'd be really jank to have it strafelock you. And any issues it gives you multi-target are on you. If you need to strafe against multiple targets, you need to learn how to flick between targets with lock-on effectively.
You can still sprint, roll, etc. in any other game that lets you strafe with a shield up. Even MGS4 does a special side roll when you have you shield up and roll to the side. I shouldn't even have to use lock-on to begin with, it's an archaic mechanic, every combat game has done away with lock-on, some still have it in there (like Bayonetta) but it's only to be used in very specific situations. Thus, I shouldn't have to even deal with lock-on to begin with. I don't even get what strafelock is as no game has it.
 

Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

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Gundam GP01 said:
Phoenixmgs said:
Gundam GP01 said:
I dont think I'm going to give your opinion much weight considering that you hate Dark Souls, one of my favorite games in recent memory.
One thing a Dark Souls fan never could answer is why is Dark Souls the only game where when you have a shield up (not locked-on) and move backwards, you character turns around instead of backpedaling? That one little thing that seems very minor makes it so you can't fight more than one enemy at a time properly do to the game's dependence on its lock-on system. No other game has your character turn around when using a shield (or blocking in any sort of way), even MGS4 has better shield controls than Dark Souls.
1: It makes walking narrow ledges and platforming easier while still being able to defend yourself against enemies that might be on the ledge, like in Blighttown, specifically because it doesnt change your movement controls.

2: If you happen to notice a hazard or attack coming at you at the last possible moment, it takes a lot less time and effort to just flick the stick and turn your character than it would to let go of L1, then turn, then start holding L1 again.

3: if you want to maneuver around an enemy without turning your back or side to them, then just lock onto the fucker.

Or two hand an ultra greatsword and one hit kill them before they can attack.
1) If you backpedaled/strafed with a shield up, movement would only be easier on narrow edges because your character would move more slowly.

2) Releasing L1 before turning your character wastes less than a fraction of a second. Having to lock-on to backpedal wastes more time as the game my lock-on to the wrong enemy or not lock-on at all (like when an enemy is on the corner of a wall).

3) I shouldn't have to lock-on to strafe around an enemy.
 

Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

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Gundam GP01 said:
Phoenixmgs said:
Rozalia1 said:
Phoenixmgs said:
- Listen mode is pointless because you can just listen yourself to the audio.
I've got some really damn good headphones I can use to listen to the audio, not everyone has. Some people aren't going to be able to make out directional sound simple as that.
Right now I just have my 2 crappy PC speakers as my receiver has a cold solder joint and is in protect mode, and I can still make out where the enemies are by listening. You just need 2 good speakers really, all I hook up to my receiver are the left, right, and center speakers (plus sub) because you don't need to rears to hear stuff behind you.
And some people dont have that. Some people only have their TV speakers.
I played most of TLOU on my TV speakers. 2 independent speakers are enough, which most TVs have. Some old ass TVs only have that one mono speaker but those are CRTs, which barely anyone has.
 

Benpasko

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Phoenixmgs said:
I shouldn't have to even deal with lock-on to begin with.
It sounds like Dark Souls isn't the game for you. I don't even understand how you think being able to focus on one target is 'archaic' but want a strafelock. If you don't need a lockon because you can just face the right direction, why can't you apply the same logic to blocking? Are you a casual?

Phoenixmgs said:
I don't even get what strafelock is as no game has it.
Not going to explain, it's exactly what it says it is.


Phoenixmgs said:
2) Releasing L1 before turning your character wastes less than a fraction of a second. Having to lock-on to backpedal wastes more time as the game my lock-on to the wrong enemy or not lock-on at all (like when an enemy is on the corner of a wall).
This isn't true in dark souls. It takes a second to raise your shield, and the lower->raise animations would take long enough to get you hit in situations the current system would work for.
 

Knight Captain Kerr

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The Last of Us is a great game but not a perfect game. I liked the game a lot but it had problems. The AI isn't terrible but it isn't great. It's basically the Uncharted AI which was just okay. It isn't like what Naughty Dog talked about before the game came out anyway, that's for sure. Lots of people will assume when you have problems with a game you hate the game which isn't true. That said all opinions on overall game quality are subjective.