The most cliche of cliches

[Elvis Starburst]

Everything has cliches. What makes a cliche good is how it's handled. Sometimes it's done rather poorly, but other times even the most basic of cliches can shine in the spotlight. Listening to the music from the visual novel called "If My Heart Had Wings," I remembered some of the cliches this VN used... and it got me wanting to do a discussion rant on good and bad cliches.

This VN was quite cute, had some nice art, pretty decent writing, good music, and a fair bit of charm with its topic of trying to make a human-piloted glider that can reach heights nobody else could in the past (And a DUCK WITH A HAT). It was fun, if a bit drawn out at times. But the clichers... OH the cliches. Let's see what we've got here...

Spoiler

You've got the wheelchair bound prickly love interest that warms up to you over time...

Spoiler

You've got the silly and very chesty best friend...

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And you've also got the even more chesty genius whose intellect is the only thing that didn't go straight to her tits...

Spoiler

Quite the list. And despite these 3 being kinda blatant cliches in a lot of ways, I found myself enjoying the way they were written too much to care. They were all pretty fun and adorable in their ways, and they all bounced off each other really well. That is, until we get to the cliche I really didn't care for that came in at the half way point.


The twins...

Spoiler

These two... are the worst kinds of cliche. I already am kinda meh on the twin cliche, but what killed it for me was their place in the group and story. They're conveniently rich, conveniently have a hangar for your glider, conveniently have connections, and conveniently come in at the convenient time the group needed something convenient to show up. And to stack the cliches, the one on the left is super shy, soft spoken and nervous, ready to break into tears kinda quickly... while the other is the cold, stoic, tsundere type. They feel tacked on, not just onto the story, but in the main group too. They never felt like they fit in as well as the others did, more like after-thought additions. Considering their role in the story is literally plot convenience, I'm sure they weren't the first set of characters considered for the story... but that may just be my opinion.

It also helps I don't like their art positioning as much either. Usually everything else is fine when they're not facing straight forward, but this one is their more standard pose which you see about half the time. It just looks... wrong.

Spoiler

Sooo, yeah, not exactly a perfect mix. But it was still enjoyable regardless, and certainly worth the asking price in terms of content. Just make sure to get the uncensored non-Steam version if you're into that kind of thing.

Now, your turn! Cliches?

Edit: Forgot a picture of Hat the duck

Spoiler

D'aww

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

I hate that we categorize are lives and experiences into tropes.

 

[BrawlMan]

I hate that we categorize are lives and experiences into tropes.

I can't speak for you or anyone else, but I never try to categorize everything going into my life as a trope. not to mention, the site tvtropes itself ain't always 100% accurate either.

Speaking of harems, there's tenchi muyo. The show itself might appear trophy, but it's got more originality than most of the harem shows that came out later or now. Not so much Tenchi in Tokyo. We don't talk about the spin-offs.

 

[Silvanus]

Anime relationship VNs are bound to be steeped in tropes, because... well, frankly, I don't think they're terribly concerned with originality. Those girls look near-identical to a hundred others.

 

[CaitSeith]

I hate that we categorize are lives and experiences into tropes.

Now that would be a strange person, someone who sees their own daily routine as a day full of tropes. If they had a diary it would be an interesting read...

 

[PsychedelicDiamond]

I don't think there's anything wrong with tropes, you can, by definition, not avoid them. What you do wanna avoid are clich?s. Those only serve to make your story predictable. Of course a predictable story can still be enjoyable if presented well enough, but in that case it's the presentation that needs to avoid clich?s. There's nothing wrong with writing a character that conforms to a well known archetype to some extent. But if they do, you need to make sure that you aren't just going through the motions when developing them. People like to complain about subversion for subversions sake but the reason those become popular is because people grow bored of certain clich?s. Of course sometimes it becomes so common to subvert a clich? a specific way that this particular variety of subversion become a clich? itself but that's something everyone should be able to recognize.

I hate that we categorize are lives and experiences into tropes.

We don't. We categorize fiction in tropes. Which is what they're for.

I hate that we categorize are lives and experiences into tropes.

Now that would be a strange person, someone who sees their own daily routine as a day full of tropes. If they had a diary it would be an interesting read...

Have you ever read Troper Tales, back before TvTropes became so ashamed of them they removed them? Like they did with basically everything that was fun about the site? They were terrible, but in the best sense possible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bcOzRomu-Y

 

[Squilookle]

Saying tropes are bad is like saying a dictionary is bad. All these things exist whether we define them or not. By categorising them, we show patterns, and actually help people avoid using the same cliches others have used before us.

Tropes are not bad​

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

As we're on Tropes, can I say I hate the 'I am no man!' trope.
It's in LoTR, Wonder Woman, and a host of others and its just poor writing. Its a cheap way for the writers to get out of the hole they've dug, using false empowerment like a parasite.

"No man can kill me"
"I am no man!" Stab!
"Oh no, the Woman Clause of the Dark Magic ritual that brought me back to life! Curses! No woman in all of history has ever tried to kill me(totally disregarding the female elf who used magic to kill me)"

"You can't go out there, its no-mans land"
"I am no man!"
"Curses! The Woman are Immune to Bullets disclaimer! We never thought a woman would fight in a war!"

Just lazy. And sad.

 

[Elvis Starburst]

Snip

Snap

Seems I was confused. Thread edited for the proper term I was looking for!

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

As we're on Tropes, can I say I hate the 'I am no man!' trope.
It's in LoTR, Wonder Woman, and a host of others and its just poor writing. Its a cheap way for the writers to get out of the hole they've dug, using false empowerment like a parasite.

"No man can kill me"
"I am no man!" Stab!
"Oh no, the Woman Clause of the Dark Magic ritual that brought me back to life! Curses! No woman in all of history has ever tried to kill me(totally disregarding the female elf who used magic to kill me)"

"You can't go out there, its no-mans land"
"I am no man!"
"Curses! The Woman are Immune to Bullets disclaimer! We never thought a woman would fight in a war!"

Just lazy. And sad.

Uh, Wonder Woman didn?t say that at all.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

As we're on Tropes, can I say I hate the 'I am no man!' trope.
It's in LoTR, Wonder Woman, and a host of others and its just poor writing. Its a cheap way for the writers to get out of the hole they've dug, using false empowerment like a parasite.

"No man can kill me"
"I am no man!" Stab!
"Oh no, the Woman Clause of the Dark Magic ritual that brought me back to life! Curses! No woman in all of history has ever tried to kill me(totally disregarding the female elf who used magic to kill me)"

"You can't go out there, its no-mans land"
"I am no man!"
"Curses! The Woman are Immune to Bullets disclaimer! We never thought a woman would fight in a war!"

Just lazy. And sad.

Uh, Wonder Woman didn?t say that at all.

Yes it literally did with the 'You can't go out there, that's no-mans land' scene

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

As we're on Tropes, can I say I hate the 'I am no man!' trope.
It's in LoTR, Wonder Woman, and a host of others and its just poor writing. Its a cheap way for the writers to get out of the hole they've dug, using false empowerment like a parasite.

"No man can kill me"
"I am no man!" Stab!
"Oh no, the Woman Clause of the Dark Magic ritual that brought me back to life! Curses! No woman in all of history has ever tried to kill me(totally disregarding the female elf who used magic to kill me)"

"You can't go out there, its no-mans land"
"I am no man!"
"Curses! The Woman are Immune to Bullets disclaimer! We never thought a woman would fight in a war!"

Just lazy. And sad.

Uh, Wonder Woman didn?t say that at all.

Yes it literally did with the 'You can't go out there, that's no-mans land' scene

No it didn?t. I know that scene very well; Steve and Diana argue about staying to help the people of Veld and the soldiers in the trench. Steve?s final verbatim words are ?This is not what we came here to do? and Diana responds ?No, but it?s what I?m going to do?

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

As we're on Tropes, can I say I hate the 'I am no man!' trope.
It's in LoTR, Wonder Woman, and a host of others and its just poor writing. Its a cheap way for the writers to get out of the hole they've dug, using false empowerment like a parasite.

"No man can kill me"
"I am no man!" Stab!
"Oh no, the Woman Clause of the Dark Magic ritual that brought me back to life! Curses! No woman in all of history has ever tried to kill me(totally disregarding the female elf who used magic to kill me)"

"You can't go out there, its no-mans land"
"I am no man!"
"Curses! The Woman are Immune to Bullets disclaimer! We never thought a woman would fight in a war!"

Just lazy. And sad.

Uh, Wonder Woman didn?t say that at all.

Yes it literally did with the 'You can't go out there, that's no-mans land' scene

No it didn?t. I know that scene very well; Steve and Diana argue about staying to help the people of Veld and the soldiers in the trench. Steve?s final verbatim words are ?This is not what we came here to do? and Diana responds ?No, but it?s what I?m going to do?

Steve literally says 'That's no man land. No Man can cross it' ten seconds later Diana drops her clothing to show her female body and crosses no man land.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

As we're on Tropes, can I say I hate the 'I am no man!' trope.
It's in LoTR, Wonder Woman, and a host of others and its just poor writing. Its a cheap way for the writers to get out of the hole they've dug, using false empowerment like a parasite.

"No man can kill me"
"I am no man!" Stab!
"Oh no, the Woman Clause of the Dark Magic ritual that brought me back to life! Curses! No woman in all of history has ever tried to kill me(totally disregarding the female elf who used magic to kill me)"

"You can't go out there, its no-mans land"
"I am no man!"
"Curses! The Woman are Immune to Bullets disclaimer! We never thought a woman would fight in a war!"

Just lazy. And sad.

Uh, Wonder Woman didn?t say that at all.

Yes it literally did with the 'You can't go out there, that's no-mans land' scene

No it didn?t. I know that scene very well; Steve and Diana argue about staying to help the people of Veld and the soldiers in the trench. Steve?s final verbatim words are ?This is not what we came here to do? and Diana responds ?No, but it?s what I?m going to do?

Steve literally says 'That's no man land. No Man can cross it' ten seconds later Diana drops her clothing to show her female body and crosses no man land.

Saying no man can cross No-Man?s Land is a truism. Diana crosses it because not because she is a woman but because she is a Demi-God. Thor could cross it. Hercules could cross it.

More to the point she decided to do it not because her status as a woman as mocked, but because she saw people - men and women - in a danger she could help remove. So she did; and with Steve, Chief, Charlie and Sameer they liberate the town.

 

[Squilookle]

As we're on Tropes, can I say I hate the 'I am no man!' trope.
It's in LoTR, Wonder Woman, and a host of others and its just poor writing. Its a cheap way for the writers to get out of the hole they've dug, using false empowerment like a parasite.

"No man can kill me"
"I am no man!" Stab!
"Oh no, the Woman Clause of the Dark Magic ritual that brought me back to life! Curses! No woman in all of history has ever tried to kill me(totally disregarding the female elf who used magic to kill me)"

"You can't go out there, its no-mans land"
"I am no man!"
"Curses! The Woman are Immune to Bullets disclaimer! We never thought a woman would fight in a war!"

Just lazy. And sad.

I thought you were quoting Macbeth with the first one but I don't recall Macduff proclaiming he wasn't a man.

I agree it's lazy writing, but I always saw phrases like 'no man can kill me' and 'no man's land' to mean nobody in mankind. It's all-encompassingly human, and gender-neutral. Which checks out.

Which makes a woman suddenly defying it because they're not a male somewhat... lame. I'll give Macbeth a pass though, not just because it's probably the first time something like that happened in literature but because being 'of women-born' is also gender neutral. All humans of natural birth, are of women-born.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Might I suggest a VN I recently finished called Sabbat of the Witch? It has characters that don't easily fit into hard cliches and even has a main character with some actual character and growth. For example, one character is a big video-game player but she's not a shut in nerd but rather a very socially mindful person that's actually more of a trendy outgoing person.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

As we're on Tropes, can I say I hate the 'I am no man!' trope.
It's in LoTR, Wonder Woman, and a host of others and its just poor writing. Its a cheap way for the writers to get out of the hole they've dug, using false empowerment like a parasite.

"No man can kill me"
"I am no man!" Stab!
"Oh no, the Woman Clause of the Dark Magic ritual that brought me back to life! Curses! No woman in all of history has ever tried to kill me(totally disregarding the female elf who used magic to kill me)"

"You can't go out there, its no-mans land"
"I am no man!"
"Curses! The Woman are Immune to Bullets disclaimer! We never thought a woman would fight in a war!"

Just lazy. And sad.

I thought you were quoting Macbeth with the first one but I don't recall Macduff proclaiming he wasn't a man.

I agree it's lazy writing, but I always saw phrases like 'no man can kill me' and 'no man's land' to mean nobody in mankind. It's all-encompassingly human, and gender-neutral. Which checks out.

Which makes a woman suddenly defying it because they're not a male somewhat... lame. I'll give Macbeth a pass though, not just because it's probably the first time something like that happened in literature but because being 'of women-born' is also gender neutral. All humans of natural birth, are of women-born.

See that's what I always thought it meant too! All Mankind, which okay have an Elf or Dwarf kill the big bag, they're not technically humans.
and it'd be just as bullshit if a man suddenly could do what no woman could.

If they play it in the whole 'No Human' way and have...Liara come in as an Asari and kick ass, I'm all for it! But if its just 'No woman can give birth to a 100lbs pound baby' and Chris Evans is all 'I am no Woman!' then its just a cheap out.

 

[twistedmic]

As we're on Tropes, can I say I hate the 'I am no man!' trope.
It's in LoTR, Wonder Woman, and a host of others and its just poor writing. Its a cheap way for the writers to get out of the hole they've dug, using false empowerment like a parasite.

"No man can kill me"
"I am no man!" Stab!
"Oh no, the Woman Clause of the Dark Magic ritual that brought me back to life! Curses! No woman in all of history has ever tried to kill me(totally disregarding the female elf who used magic to kill me)"

Lord of the Rings was published Sixty-Five years ago, vastly predating most of the instances you've probably seen. And it wasn't just Eowyn that killed the With King, Merry/Pippin had a hand in the slaying as well.

"You can't go out there, its no-mans land"
"I am no man!"
"Curses! The Woman are Immune to Bullets disclaimer! We never thought a woman would fight in a war!"

Just lazy. And sad.

That was, to me, less about Diana being a woman and more about her being a demigod with near-indestructible magical weapons and armor.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

As we're on Tropes, can I say I hate the 'I am no man!' trope.
It's in LoTR, Wonder Woman, and a host of others and its just poor writing. Its a cheap way for the writers to get out of the hole they've dug, using false empowerment like a parasite.

"No man can kill me"
"I am no man!" Stab!
"Oh no, the Woman Clause of the Dark Magic ritual that brought me back to life! Curses! No woman in all of history has ever tried to kill me(totally disregarding the female elf who used magic to kill me)"

Lord of the Rings was published Sixty-Five years ago, vastly predating most of the instances you've probably seen. And it wasn't just Eowyn that killed the With King, Merry/Pippin had a hand in the slaying as well.

"You can't go out there, its no-mans land"
"I am no man!"
"Curses! The Woman are Immune to Bullets disclaimer! We never thought a woman would fight in a war!"

Just lazy. And sad.

That was, to me, less about Diana being a woman and more about her being a demigod with near-indestructible magical weapons and armor.

being old isn't an excuse for being lazy. Shakespeare is pretty old, but I don't remember him having magical outs. Not that he's perfect, but a poison that kills any man not working on Juliet because she's a woman didn't happen.

As far as Wonder Woman, it would have worked fine if Steve had said 'That's No Mans Land. No one can survive out there!' instead the scene specifically has him say 'No MAN can survive out there.' There is heavy emphasis on the man part, only for a few seconds later Diana to reveal herself as Wonder Woman.
Or have her get hurt. For all her Goddess powers, let a single round take her in the shoulder or leg. that way it shows how ungodly deadly it was, even a Goddess is wounded. Boom. Character vulnerability, threat established, continuing on, bravery, yadda yadaa. Yes she can deflect thousands of rounds. But we're talking tens of thousands during artillery bombardment.
Either have her show some vulnerability(not even pain, just a single cut is enough), or drop the 'No man' part of the scene.

 

[Thaluikhain]

As we're on Tropes, can I say I hate the 'I am no man!' trope.
It's in LoTR, Wonder Woman, and a host of others and its just poor writing. Its a cheap way for the writers to get out of the hole they've dug, using false empowerment like a parasite.

"No man can kill me"
"I am no man!" Stab!
"Oh no, the Woman Clause of the Dark Magic ritual that brought me back to life! Curses! No woman in all of history has ever tried to kill me(totally disregarding the female elf who used magic to kill me)"

"You can't go out there, its no-mans land"
"I am no man!"
"Curses! The Woman are Immune to Bullets disclaimer! We never thought a woman would fight in a war!"

Just lazy. And sad.

Closely related to that, when your stock obnoxious male character says that "women aren't as good as men", and gets put in his place by a woman proving she is as good as a man (generally not the hero, though, just one of the other men hanging around). Not that women are as good as men, that she personally is. Especially when she's "not like the other women" and tends to only get along with men anyway.

As an aside, while no man can kill the Witch-King (but a woman and a hobbit can), Aragorn beat up him and a bunch of his hardest mates and chased them away all by himself back at Weathertop.