The RPG Glass Ceiling

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Emiscary

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Sep 7, 2008
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I love RPGs. Always have. Doesn't matter whether I'm playing the role of heartless graverobber, stoic warrior or noble hero. But over the years I've noticed something... and it's only after recently having had my way with Skyrim and ME3 that I realized how right I was.

Here's what I'm getting at: RPGs can't deliver diverse conclusions. They just can't. Game devs at this point in time are either unwilling or unable to put in the amount of resources it'd take to read *intent* in the choices of gamers. IE: they realize people wanna do things their own way, but have no idea what it is they want their actions to amount to. This is why modern RPGs let you be as much of an asshole or a bleeding heart as you want, and give you the option of caving people's heads in with a giant club or turning them inside out by snapping your fingers at them irritably. And it's also why regardless of your personality/head smashing preferences the end of the story you partake in is always the same.

Take a look at Skyrim for an example of the wealth of character options a game can present you with. It's possible to become everything from a nightmare assassin to wizened archmage- but none of those choices ultimately *amount* to anything. In Skyrim (just like ME, Dragon Age, Deus Ex, you name it...) choices are made in a vacuum. Did you want to keep the shiny relic, or blow it up? Did you want to assume control of the shadowy organization, or wipe it out? Doesn't actually matter beyond the inclusion of an item in your inventory, or the missions added to your quest list. Nothing you do will significantly impact anything else, and any acknowledgement of your actions later on always reads more like an easter egg included for novelty's sake than real consequences.

It's obvious why they do this. If they actually tried to build RPG's in such a way as to have your actions have a real and lasting impact on the setting you're in it'd be *really* difficult. And likely expensive. So the standard story model at present is: rise to prominence, reset to 0.

IE: our hero starts off young and inexperienced, and in whatever fashion he sees fit climbs to prominence and conquers all odds. And then as he stands atop a mountain of fallen adversaries and stolen loot, the game dev kicks his ass back into the dirt so we can run the same play again.

And it didn't bother me up until recently when EA proved that even franchises whose primary selling points were how much they acknowledged player choices suffer the same goddamn problem as all RPGs.

Bottom line: I've gone from rags to riches while killing unilaterally evil mooks before having control of the story taken from me at the last second to leave you guys with a sequel hook literally HUNDREDS of times. I want something different. Any game dev who's capable of delivering it to me, I'd be happy to do business with you.
 

Janus Vesta

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Mar 25, 2008
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Plenty of RPGs give diverse and satifying endings. Fallout New Vegas, Alpha Protocol, The Witcher 2 and Mass Effect 2 all had endings which made your choices and actions matter.

It's not that it can't be done, it's just that some of the most recent failures have been pretty high profile games which were well recieved up until the ending. Mass Effect 3 and DX:HR are the most prominent examples. They both stole their endings from the original Deus Ex too oddly enough.

Also, Skyrim isn't the kind of RPG where your choices matter, it's more like the classic hack and slash RPGs from the late 80s to mid 90s.
 

madwarper

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Mar 17, 2011
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So, you've just realized the limitation of the medium? ie. Computers are not humans?

If you want freedom to approach a situation in whatever grey (non-black/white) manner you want, play a Table Top RPG with a human DM.
 

unoleian

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You cannot underestimate the amount of work necessary to account for all the possible threads to develop an evolving world. That is a MONUMENTAL task.

The games as they are, are MONUMENTAL achievements already.

The people making these things are only human and they spend YEARS developing these worlds. There's a reason you only see a new Elder Scrolls every 5 or so years.

Give a mere 8 major, world-changing decisions with only 2 major pathways, that's already 128 potential worlds or outcomes, potentially even as many as 1024 or more if each major decision changes face based on previous decisions.

Consider that scope. Consider it.

YOu wan tot program that, be my fucking guest. Maybe I'll still be alive when you finish.

You can take threads to the ultimate conclusion and extrapolate upon that narrative to a very small degree, which is why you'll almost never see a game that isn't more than 8 or so endings, and generally those are comprised of videos played based on condition, and very few conditions to extrapolate decision from. Either you see it, or you don't, more often than not, and nothing more. You simply cannot account for all decisions past a certain level of player choice.
 

Kahunaburger

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May 6, 2011
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Depends on the RPG.

Planescape: Torment is the example people harp on all the time because it does this stuff right: the world reacts to what you do without it feeling contrived, and the choices you are offered give you enough options that your story will be consistent with almost any Nameless One character concept.

Mass Effect 3 and Skyrim are, respectively, an RPG that fails to accomplish this sort of flexibility due to bad writing and misplaced priorities and an RPG that emphasizes hiking/crafting/exploration over narrative.
 

RedEyesBlackGamer

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Jan 23, 2011
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madwarper said:
So, you've just realized the limitation of the medium? ie. Computers are not humans?

If you want freedom to approach a situation in whatever grey (non-black/white) manner you want, play a Table Top RPG with a human DM.
This.
To be fair, games like Skyrim give all characters a motivation to do their main questline their way.
Regardless of whether you are good or evil, no one wants the world to end and have their soul devoured.
 

dimensional

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Jun 13, 2011
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Well yeah computer games cant do divergence, well they can but only for a set few choices and even then its hard work as essentially you are taking the game down a completely different path Ar Tonelico 2 did this in the middle of the game which ever choice you made there took you through a completely different middle section before converging again for a similar ending. VNs also offer multiple paths at set points (in my limited xp of them anyway).

Usually all RPGS can hope for is have a main path that is unchangeable (except very slight divergence) so they can tell a story then just add a few bits where you will still need to get past but you can try a few different approaches such as massacre/destruction/persuasion/stealth etc.

In order for there to be true divergence from your actions we would need some pretty high tech solutions including real AI (which we are far from having) and amazing procedural generation in short its probably not going to happen in our lifetime.

Not that im bothered though I would rather they concentrate on telling a good story and then add or take away as much choice as they need to accomplish that story rather than have gimmicky choices that dont really matter.

Any game that promises true divergence is lying its just some are better at hiding this than others your journey is always linear the ending will always be gray even if it has a few shades of gray.
 

Sagacious Zhu

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Oct 17, 2011
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It's possible to an extent but they'll never deliver infinite conclusions based on every different choice. At best, they'll take the two or three biggest choices and make variations based on those.

Persona 4 had a good example of this. Based on your actions there were three possible endings based on your choices. There was the Bad "You Done Goofed" ending, the middle-of-the-road "Good Ending" and the final "True Ending" that requires significant investment from the player. For all the criticism that JRPG's are too scripted and linear, Persona 4 offered three different endings based on the choices the player made.
 

Don Savik

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Aug 27, 2011
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Thats why I never got Mass Effect. So I make a choice between one of 2 things. A few hours later they reference my choice.

WOOOOOOAOAAAAOOAHAAAAAHHHHHHH EPIC FRICKIN' DYNAMIC CHOICE SYSTEM THAT MAKES IT "MY" STORY!!!!!!! THIS GAME IS SO COMPLEX AND ELABORATE!!!!!

^ is the reaction people get in conclusion.

...what!? Its not that complex of a game, and yet people make it out to be the messiah of freedom in videogames. I have more freedom in minecraft to be honest. Call me a troll or whatever I don't care, I just happen to be neutral towards triple A game hype.
 

Kahunaburger

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Don Savik said:
Thats why I never got Mass Effect. So I make a choice between one of 2 things. A few hours later they reference my choice.

WOOOOOOAOAAAAOOAHAAAAAHHHHHHH EPIC FRICKIN' DYNAMIC CHOICE SYSTEM THAT MAKES IT "MY" STORY!!!!!!! THIS GAME IS SO COMPLEX AND ELABORATE!!!!!

^ is the reaction people get in conclusion.

...what!? Its not that complex of a game, and yet people make it out to be the messiah of freedom in videogames. I have more freedom in minecraft to be honest. Call me a troll or whatever I don't care, I just happen to be neutral towards triple A game hype.
I think this is largely correct, at least about Mass Effect. There's some stuff (Planescape: Torment, as mentioned above, is a good example) that I feel does work better as a story in which the player is a meaningful participant.

And yeah, Minecraft is an example, to me, of the way that things should be going. Procedural story generation would be the holy grail of RPG design, and there have been a lot of promising [http://www.paradoxplaza.com/games/crusader-kings-ii] steps [http://left4dead.wikia.com/wiki/The_Director] in that direction, and some high-concept [https://cultrl.wordpress.com/] stuff that might set the bar for future devs if it ever actually gets made and/or works.
 

Manji187

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unoleian said:
You cannot underestimate the amount of work necessary to account for all the possible threads to develop an evolving world. That is a MONUMENTAL task.
Yeah, basically this. Simply too much work. Longer development times, bigger teams...greater financial risk. That is...if we're talking games with full 3D, 60FPS, high resolution, voice-acting, CGI sequences and quality sound.

Now, imagine a 4-8 GB Chrono Trigger; 2D graphics, no voice-acting (all-text), no fancy CGI (anime FMVs will do), and MIDI-sound. Could we get 16-32 different endings which depend on choice and consequence? I think it is very well within the realm of possibility. Question is, of course, would enough people buy it? Contemporary gamers are rather spoiled in terms of graphics etc.
 

Heaven's Guardian

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Oct 22, 2011
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This is hardly a problem specific to RPGs. The problem is that everyone seems to have a point they want to make with their ending. When (if!) they discover that it doesn't fit, they start changing things or ignoring the obvious in order to make their point. If the theme isn't woven into the fabric of the universe and the characters from the beginning, the ending will fail. This gets compounded when you start talking about adding player choice, especially with a game like Skyrim. No true, open-world Western RPG can ever really predict what players are going to do, so the ending is pretty much thrown in because they feel there should be one. As for EA's recent example, that was basically them just deciding that they wanted to have a pervasive theme. A theme that just so happened to be the exact opposite of how most players had interpreted in the protagonist. And so it failed. The only way there will be RPGs with multiple endings that make sense is if writers and producers stop trying to forcibly insert themes, and let them flow naturally from the story instead.