The solo gamer problem and what games can do to make PUG less of a dirty word. (thought dump)

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Aetrion

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A lot of games these days are struggling with making solo players feel like they can accomplish anything in the game. PUG is practically a dirty word these days, since groups of solo players who got together via a matchmaker rarely ever perform well. Whether you play League of Legends or World of Tanks, most of the interesting parts of the game are only really accessible to organized clans and teams. This of course costs a lot of games players, because many people are solo gamers, but aren't interested in being eternally banished to the kids table.

I think that the big problem that games run into with being accessible to solo players is that "solo player" is a really bad definition for people who don't join clans because it assumes they do not like playing with other people.

Solo players are in actually not opposed to joining groups, or to following orders, or organization, what they are generally opposed to is long term commitment to a group or leader. Someone who doesn't play a certain game every day for example isn't likely to be comfortable sporadically popping into a tight knit group of people who hang out in the game every day.

What devs can do to help make solo gamers feel more welcome and letting people participate in their game fully is to create systems that let the players who organize make use of the available solo players more effectively. Drafting a player who can do what you need from a pool of available players is a very powerful tool for putting together groups that has gotten lost in many recent games.

This is something I remember from old MMOs like Dark Ages of Camelot. Oftentimes if you wanted to build a group for a certain activity you went to the /who list and started whispering people. No matter what class you played, you would periodically get whispers of people asking if you had time to fill a group spot. This got replaced by matchmakers in recent games, which made getting into a group faster, but it also created PUGs without any leadership. If you joined a group in those old games because someone invited you, you implicitly agreed to follow that person, and that person could remove you from the group if you were not working out for them.

This kind of system has unfortunately fallen completely by the wayside instead of being refined and expanded over the years. With the amount of data and statistics that games make available to players these days there could be incredibly powerful systems for finding players to draft to your team. Players could tag themselves with what role they like playing best, or what their experience level is to give additional information. The game could convey how well the player plays through statistics, and group leaders could give people they draft a rating after the match to generate a metric of how that person interacts with others.

Rating other players wouldn't have to happen on a "good or bad" system either. For example, the leader of a group could have the power to tag the player with things like "knowledgeable" "skilled" "easy going" "follows orders", but also tags like "rude" or "defiant". You would be able to see the rating of a player in these attributes to get an idea of who they are. Group leaders might not have a problem inviting someone who is both rude and skilled, others might be more interested in inviting players who have a lot of easy going tags than inviting those who have high stats.

Overall there is a lot games could do to pull more people into high level play by adding features like this. There is no lack of interest from more casual, or solo players to join the group oriented content. They are perfectly willing to follow, learn, and perform their best for a chance to experience the deeper layers of a game. What games lack is the ability for people who organize groups and build teams to get in touch with those people and draft them when needed.
 

SlumlordThanatos

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Aug 25, 2014
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I'm honestly shocked that games don't do this already.

I mean, at least in WoW (before all the realms got smushed together), experienced players had a reputation on a given server. If someone whispered you while you were trying to form a group for something, you either knew who they were and what they were like, or you knew other people who did. If someone was an asshole in a group, or was just a terrible player, people would spread the word.

An actual in-game mechanic that kept track of one's reputation would do wonders.
 

Smooth Operator

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It is a good idea, both for gameplay and general chat mechanics it is pretty critical to know what kind of person you are stuck with.

Not so sure about global systems as guilds are known to pick their trolling targets and nuke their reputation to oblivion. But having something like hang out "bars" where people get a local reputation and the bar itself has a reputation should work pretty well.
 

Aetrion

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Yea, it seems like MMOs at some point just decided that guilds and friend lists were as good as social features could ever get, and simply stopped developing them further. A lot of players even got angry when ESO first started talking about the concept of allowing a character to be in multiple guilds, even though I find that a great way to expand your social circle and have the ability to make something like an RP mages guild in a game without making every member unable to also have a raiding guild or PvP guild.

I think the big worry that devs have always had with a reputation system is that people will abuse the system. Nobody wants to be showered in negative reputation because they said one wrong word to some drama queen with a big fan club. So a system like that has to be well developed. That's why I think it makes most sense to make it tag based, so that people can't ever give someone a blanket negative rep, but only tag them with things that describe specifically what that player is doing. This is actually an idea I got from the Steam review section, where they allowed you to tag reviews as "Helpful" "Unhelpful" or "Funny", so that people would stop tagging joke reviews as helpful, while actually expanding peoples ability to find the funniest joke reviews people have written. A funny player tag would also be cool.

I think the biggest reason why a push for better social features is important is because a lot of people who were in college or high school when MMOs first became big have less time now, and that's why the audience is trending more toward a "casual" session length, or might not play every day. At the same time though, people aren't looking for the game to be shallow and the social interactions to be as minimal as possible. On the contrary, even if you run something like WoW group finder instances today, the moment someone speaks up in chat people are usually very happy to talk, but if nobody does they often finish the dungeon run in silence and move on. People still want to do content that takes coordination.
 

Lufia Erim

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I don't know. No matter what system there is , there will be trolls. That being said at least in mmos, i think the guild system kinda does that already. I mean of you are going to purposely gimp youself by not joining or CREATING your own guild then it's your own fault. MMO stands for Massively multiplayer online, if you go i to those games planning to go solo , you're doing it wrong. They are many single player games out there.

As for pugs, well it stands for pick up group. You should expect the good with the bad when you choose to play with randomers. Which is different when 1 person is filling in for 1 spot. In that case, the outsider should follow the leaders order simply by courtesy.

Now note i have never played a MOBA and have no idea how it works, my opinion is based on the mmos i have played. Mainly FF14:ARR. Whos comunity, might i say has been the best i have ever encountered.
 

Adeptus Aspartem

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Aetrion said:
Rating other players wouldn't have to happen on a "good or bad" system either. For example, the leader of a group could have the power to tag the player with things like "knowledgeable" "skilled" "easy going" "follows orders", but also tags like "rude" or "defiant". You would be able to see the rating of a player in these attributes to get an idea of who they are. Group leaders might not have a problem inviting someone who is both rude and skilled, others might be more interested in inviting players who have a lot of easy going tags than inviting those who have high stats.

Overall there is a lot games could do to pull more people into high level play by adding features like this. There is no lack of interest from more casual, or solo players to join the group oriented content. They are perfectly willing to follow, learn, and perform their best for a chance to experience the deeper layers of a game. What games lack is the ability for people who organize groups and build teams to get in touch with those people and draft them when needed.
In theory all this sounds great. But then you have to apply this to the real world and it all falls apart due to players. LoL's report system gets abused constantly by groups just reporting players they didnt like.
So people "tagging" other players just leads to a disaster. That's why most "survival" games like DayZ are boring as fuck, because people just slaughter each other because "the lulz" is more important to them.

And i doubt people can "just get high level" due to better teamfinders. I'm taking LoL as an example. People up to Platinum are actually godawful in the game. Diamond and higher are only 1% of the players though.
And my expiriences with other PvP games like the Souls series etc. tell me the same.
 

Diablo1099_v1legacy

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Adeptus Aspartem said:
And i doubt people can "just get high level" due to better teamfinders. I'm taking LoL as an example. People up to Platinum are actually godawful in the game. Diamond and higher are only 1% of the players though.
And my expiriences with other PvP games like the Souls series etc. tell me the same.
...Alright, hang on, how exactly can someone get to Diamond and Platinum without being good at the game?
I know this is off-topic, but I'm actually curious.
PM me maybe?

OT: I'm with a bunch of other people, if you can get it work, good on ya, but odds are, trolls will ruin it for everyone.
There's a reason why such social features haven't been developed beyond their current point: People are assholes
 

Rebel_Raven

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Would be great if games did more to make randoms more appealing, and soloers more viable. It's not easy for everyone to join a group, and stick with the group. On paper it is, but there's a lot that goes in to it.
 

kongajinken

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That actually sums it up pretty well. I don't sit down and play the same game for 3 months straight and have it consume my life anymore. I jump back to and in between games a lot. I want to do the group content, and would love to do it with people, especially with a coordinated guild, but I'm not sure I will be back to play that game in a few weeks. Feels like I'm burdening the guild by being in it, but almost never being on, so I don't join one. Than I'm left to do a lot of content by myself sadly. :(
 

NeutralDrow

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...great, an entire essay to make me miss City of Heroes all that much more. They didn't have a player rating system, far as I know (and that honestly sounds ripe for abuse), but they did have the easy LFG labels, and I knew of no game that made PUGs easier to form or more rewarding, without necessarily needing Supergroups.
 

Glexn

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As a person who frequently plays online games and has doesn't use friends lists, I would probably stop playing if this system was implemented in The Old Republic, Diablo 3, or League of Legends, or a couple others I can't think of right now. Having randoms constantly messaging and asking for help already exists in the form of "80 inquisitor L42m", and it's pretty annoying. Adding a reason to focus whispers on me sounds like it'd kill immersion even harder than seeing my fellow adventurers name, the great Darth Faxxzorz69. I imagine it happens in other MMOs too.

A big reason I played TOR is because it's closest I can get to playing a MMO alone. I like having a big populated world that changes every time I log in. I like being challenged by randoms, I like PVP, I like coop missions. I don't like social features. I did start using my friends list in TOR once, but after I got a dozen people, I spent as much time saying I don't want to help as I did playing. If I want to play with a human, I'll go get one. I don't need a thousand opportunities for something I don't want 99% of the time. Hell, the number of randoms I pass who nag me to join their guild is irritating enough.

Even though a clever person could probably design a reputation system to be troll resistant, I think it's a pretty pointless thing either way. If you want to have a rating system, you need to have an objective standard that everything else can reference, and I don't think you'll get anyone agreeing on that. Otherwise the ratings mean nothing without the context of the group. Are they actually good, or are they just better than most of the people they play with?

Actually, I think I found a have cake and eat it too option. Implement all this social stuff, but you gotta give people like me one thing: the ability to appear offline while still being able to see others. A opt out button, essentially. I used to avoid logging into TOR specifically because the moment I did, those gigantic loading times would be even further postponed by fucking nagging.
 

Bad Jim

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Adeptus Aspartem said:
In theory all this sounds great. But then you have to apply this to the real world and it all falls apart due to players. LoL's report system gets abused constantly by groups just reporting players they didnt like.
Possible solution:

1) Report system with timestamps and ability of players to see replays.
2) Players can watch the replays and declare whether they think a report is accurate.
3) Players have a 'trust list' of players they trust to report and/or evaluate reports accurately. They can optionally trust players on the trust lists of those players, as many levels deep as they like.

This allows a large number of trusted opinions to be polled, so you have a good chance of finding out if someone is a good egg. You'll know if any reports are verified by someone you trust, and if they are not verified the reporter may have other reports that are verified, so you may still have some idea whether reports are accurate.

It also allows for differences of opinion, as people who, for example, expect perfect play from anyone they group with will form different trust groups to players who don't really care.
 

Aetrion

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Glexn said:
Implement all this social stuff, but you gotta give people like me one thing: the ability to appear offline while still being able to see others. A opt out button, essentially. I used to avoid logging into TOR specifically because the moment I did, those gigantic loading times would be even further postponed by fucking nagging.
Oh, this kind of expanded LFG functionality would absolutely come with the ability to opt out of it. The whole point is to allow people to declare themselves open for group content, so it would of course also allow them to declare themselves uninterested.

Adeptus Aspartem said:
In theory all this sounds great. But then you have to apply this to the real world and it all falls apart due to players. LoL's report system gets abused constantly by groups just reporting players they didnt like.
That's the beauty of it though, you can't really abuse the system because it doesn't give you a "shitn00b" tag that you can put on someone. I mean, I haven't worked out the full range of labels, but none of them would simply be "this guy is bad".

Also the tagging system IMO should come into play whenever you finish a dungeon run or a match or whatever, and be used by the person that drafted the group, not just by everyone. You can't just tell your entire guild to tag someone negatively, because it would take days for every guild member to invite that person, play through a dungeon with them, and then tag them.
 

Glexn

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Hm, okay. You're winning me over. Even something as simple as having a little icon next to player names in the world when they're open for group content would be cool. I can see that even enhancing immersion in it's own way. Instead of going through menus, you walk up to someone you see standing on that Tatooinian sand dune over there. Might actually create a gameplay reason to use emotes, pointing at a cave or whatever to indicate what you want to do before you group. It'd be a reason to jump out of a mount and help a player on a whim.
 

Adeptus Aspartem

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[/quote]
Bad Jim said:
Possible solution:

1) Report system with timestamps and ability of players to see replays.
2) Players can watch the replays and declare whether they think a report is accurate.
3) Players have a 'trust list' of players they trust to report and/or evaluate reports accurately. They can optionally trust players on the trust lists of those players, as many levels deep as they like.

This allows a large number of trusted opinions to be polled, so you have a good chance of finding out if someone is a good egg. You'll know if any reports are verified by someone you trust, and if they are not verified the reporter may have other reports that are verified, so you may still have some idea whether reports are accurate.

It also allows for differences of opinion, as people who, for example, expect perfect play from anyone they group with will form different trust groups to players who don't really care.
If the stamps actually get used. You can earn this ribbons in LoL too. Friendly, Helpful, Leader or Honorable Opponent. Except people usually NEVER use them anyway. Even myself. After a game i don't stand around and evaluate my teammates - i'm preparing the next game.

As i said: In theory all that is nice, but people aren't gonna use the good stuff and are going to abuse any "report system" for personal vendettas. It's just how pity the internet has become.


Aetrion said:
That's the beauty of it though, you can't really abuse the system because it doesn't give you a "shitn00b" tag that you can put on someone. I mean, I haven't worked out the full range of labels, but none of them would simply be "this guy is bad".

Also the tagging system IMO should come into play whenever you finish a dungeon run or a match or whatever, and be used by the person that drafted the group, not just by everyone. You can't just tell your entire guild to tag someone negatively, because it would take days for every guild member to invite that person, play through a dungeon with them, and then tag them.
I write the same thing to you: People won't use positive labels. LoL has it and even if you're the nicest guy, helping everyone and leading your team to victory you usually get 1 tag every 2 or 3 games. That's 1 / 27 possible tags.

People don't give a shit about others unless they're interested in playing more often with them. They will leave the dungeon and either a.) Flame everyone because something went wrong b.) be happy about the loot, leave the grp and join the next one for more loot.
Do you really think they pause for a second and evaluate the performance of the other +4 (up to 25) players in their group?
 

Aetrion

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Danny Dowling said:
the hell is a PUG? besides a small breed of dog?
A Pick Up Group. What it means at this point is a group of unaffiliated players that have formed up or been put together by a matchmaker for the purpose of participating in group content in a game. It also gets used to refer to unskilled, unorganized players however, because frequently the groups formed by this method lack leadership, cohesion, or accountability for an individual's actions within it. Sometimes PuG is also used to mean "Public Game", as in, a match in a competitive game that anyone can join.
 

theSovietConnection

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Jan 14, 2009
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Hmm, this idea has potential, but I think it would need a couple extra features to really help make it work.

Firstly, I think you'd need to have a bit more of an objective counter to the provided user tags, maybe a built-in system like the Recount addon that could provide a bit more of an objective idea of how the player performs. Something like this could help prevent, to some degree, troll guilds from nuking the ranking of a person they don't like.

Secondly, I think you'd need to have something in place to provide people an incentive to take people along who aren't invited via this feature as often. The biggest issue I can see happening with this would be about the same 10-20 people always being selected because they're better then everyone else, thus not really giving other players a chance to improve. Maybe include something like where after a certain period of time without being invited, the drop rates on rare loot start increasing. You wouldn't want it to increase to the point where guilds are bringing along people they could simply carry through a raid just to get the better loot, but enough to incentivize them to say "Hey, if we invite SovietConnection, who seems to be reasonably competent, we have a better chance at getting some good loot".
 

Aetrion

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The most highly rated people would likely end up being drafted more often than others, yea, but that takes them out of the pool. They also aren't always going to be online.

There would be other metrics visible than just the player tags, like actual performance stats. It would also give players the opportunity to create their recruitment profile, and maybe write a few words to directly explain themselves.

As far as new players getting exposure, I think that players should actually be allowed to declare their experience with the game. In my experience there is no shortage of people who are willing to invite newbies to their group as long as they know they are getting someone who is aware that they aren't very experienced and looking for someone to teach them. People just get angry when they get someone who doesn't know the game well but doesn't speak up or listen to advice.