TV, the new bastion for strong female characters

[chikusho]

With shows like Arrow, Game of Thrones, Damages, Mad Men and even House of Cards in mind, I keep thinking that the western world has taken a big step towards feminism and gender neutrality through TV series.
Women are often (and still) portrayed as victims, prizes, obstacles or even just objects of attraction in an overwhelming majority of media. But, for some reason, TV producers seems to have caught on to this new trend that women are people too. I'd very much like to see this bleed into other media, such as gaming.

Now, I want this to be a generally positive thread. Please share your positive observations of the portrayal of women in any kind of media.

And also, please share your disserting opinions of the shows I mention as examples.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Hmmm...not sure about this. Obviously it would be good if it were true, but I'm not seeing that much of a big improvement.

The majority of shows still feature the straight white guy hero. You have women (and other minorities) as secondary characters, and there might be an improvement in the way they are handled, but the primary focus still isn't them in the majority of the biggest shows.

 

[generals3]

There is a little problem with such discussions on this forum. Most people here watch shows/movies which are aimed at an audience dominated by males. As such the view on things will be extremely skewed. I doubt you have many fans of the romance genre here (which is typically more oriented towards women like the action or fantasy genre being typically more oriented towards men).

And the audience of the show will most definitely affect the representation of women/men. Take the A-team (maybe its age also has an effect), a typical men-show about people who blow up/shoot stuff all the time: only male protagonists. Now take Friends, a typically gender neutral show (comedy is something both sexes seem to enjoy equally), 3 male protagonists and 3 female protagonists.

 

[chikusho]

Hmmm...not sure about this. Obviously it would be good if it were true, but I'm not seeing that much of a big improvement.

The majority of shows still feature the straight white guy hero. You have women (and other minorities) as secondary characters, and there might be an improvement in the way they are handled, but the primary focus still isn't them in the majority of the biggest shows.

Well, naturally an adaptation of a comic book character will remain his own gender. I don't know if you've watched the show, but the people that remains most important to Oliver are his mother, sister and ex girlfriend. All of which are given great writing, personality and Laurel even viciously fights of assassins out to get her in her own home. Damages is the only show in my list of examples that has women as lead characters, but I still hold the opinion that women are strongly represented in all of the shows I mentioned.

There is a little problem with such discussions on this forum. Most people here watch shows/movies which are aimed at an audience dominated by males. As such the view on things will be extremely skewed. I doubt you have many fans of the romance genre here (which is typically more oriented towards women like the action or fantasy genre being typically more oriented towards men).

And the audience of the show will most definitely affect the representation of women/men. Take the A-team (maybe its age also has an effect), a typical men-show about people who blow up/shoot stuff all the time: only male protagonists. Now take Friends, a typically gender neutral show (comedy is something both sexes seem to enjoy equally), 3 male protagonists and 3 female protagonists.

My observation here is that TV is moving away from the "men's show", maybe not quickly enough, but still enough to possibly make ripples in the lackluster representation of women in media in general.
Just as a pointless anecdote, I've been living with my girlfriend for the past 5 years, and she loathes romantic movies. Hell, she even discounts most movies if they have any kind of romance in them. It's already been done to death, and it's frankly insulting that these stories are supposed to make us care without any setup or rationale around the characters interactions whatsoever.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Hmmm...not sure about this. Obviously it would be good if it were true, but I'm not seeing that much of a big improvement.

The majority of shows still feature the straight white guy hero. You have women (and other minorities) as secondary characters, and there might be an improvement in the way they are handled, but the primary focus still isn't them in the majority of the biggest shows.

Well, naturally an adaptation of a comic book character will remain his own gender. I don't know if you've watched the show, but the people that remains most important to Oliver are his mother, sister and ex girlfriend. All of which are given great writing, personality and Laurel even viciously fights of assassins out to get her in her own home. Damages is the only show in my list of examples that has women as lead characters, but I still hold the opinion that women are strongly represented in all of the shows I mentioned.

Only seen the first 3 episodes of Arrow, it's only just got to Australia.

Now, certainly, a TV show about the Green Arrow is going to feature some guy running around looking like Robin Hood...but, I don't see why they needed to make a show about him in the first place. Plenty of more interesting comic characters, some of them are female. Love to have seen a Black Canary show, or a Huntress show, or a Cassandra Cain Batgirl show...hell, just make Birds of Prey.

So far, he just seems to be yet another boring rich white straight cisgender guy. Plenty of those around already.

 

[generals3]

My observation here is that TV is moving away from the "men's show", maybe not quickly enough, but still enough to possibly make ripples in the lackluster representation of women in media in general.
Just as a pointless anecdote, I've been living with my girlfriend for the past 5 years, and she loathes romantic movies. Hell, she even discounts most movies if they have any kind of romance in them. It's already been done to death, and it's frankly insulting that these stories are supposed to make us care without any setup or rationale around the characters interactions whatsoever.

I don't see how that is an inherently good thing. What's wrong with a show aimed at men (or women for that matter)? You can't always please everyone. And while your gf may be irked by romances i have a friend who constantly tries to persuade me to watch such movies and who wouldn't watch movies i'd recommend her in a million years.

 

[chikusho]

I don't see how that is an inherently good thing. What's wrong with a show aimed at men (or women for that matter)? You can't always please everyone. And while your gf may be irked by romances i have a friend who constantly tries to persuade me to watch such movies and who wouldn't watch movies i'd recommend her in a million years.

The "inherently good thing" is that the general perception of what is considered a "men's show" is changing. That you can create a show, aimed at men, that doesn't end up in just a muscle contest. That the other half of the worlds population is still treated with the same respect that men are.

 

[generals3]

The "inherently good thing" is that the general perception of what is considered a "men's show" is changing. That you can create a show, aimed at men, that doesn't end up in just a muscle contest. That the other half of the worlds population is still treated with the same respect that men are.

Ah ok, kind of different than what i interpreted from "moving away from men's show".

 

[chikusho]

Ah ok, kind of different than what i interpreted from "moving away from men's show".

Yes! Isn't it fantastic though?
Let's look at Game of Thrones for instance. Here is this show (I haven't read any of the books, so please correct me if this is unique to the series), where it's just as interesting (if not more), to see how Daenarys grows from being a victim, literally sold by her own brother, in exchange for soldiers in a war inherited by her family and her dickhead brother, and straight up owning that heritage by coldly massacering any and everyone standing in the way of her ideals.
We have Cersei Lannister plotting and scheming, desperate to keep her son safe juxtaposed with Catelyn Stark, betraying her own son to do the same to save her daughters.
We have Osha and Ygritte owning every scene in which where they appear, Brienne being a knight more skilled in fighting than golden boy Jamie, and Arya, so motivated to avenge her father that she will (probably) turn into a world class assassin.

All of this, and more, packed in to a fantasy show about middle age brutality. A setting previously only attractive to a male audience.

 

[Legion]

Books and anime are the two best places for female characters overall. Anime does have it's fair share of fan service, it's true, but it also has a much higher percentage of women who are equal to or better than their male peers. Hell, I'd say 9/10 of the best female characters I can think of come from it.

The reason other genres or forms of media are less inclined to show it is largely down to money. They are often still stuck in this backwards notion that audiences want something in particular, when the reality is that many would be just as happy with more variety.

It's one of those things: Do the audiences keep buying these products with males typically in one role, and women typically in another because they want it? Or because they aren't given many options if they want something else?

Personally I am more inclined to believe it is the latter, but as they know that things will sell as they are, they keep on churning it out under the guise of "giving the audience what they want".

As for television being a good place for decent female roles (people really need to stop using the word "strong"), I'd say it varies a lot. For example the new show Elementary, based on Sherlock Holmes, has Watson played by Lucy Liu, and she does a fantastic job in the role. Many CSI style programs have the main detective, or one of the main detectives as a woman as well.

On the other hand, there are just as many television shows made for women, with their female leads being the kind of person who believes the ideal life is marrying a rich man, and spending all of his money in tanning salons, shopping and expensive holidays. Television in many ways is far more backwards than gaming and other forms of media.

Films already have plenty of female protagonists, especially in non-action movie. In action movies it isn't too bad. Aeon Flux, Underworld, Ultra Violet, The Hunger Games and the Resident Evil films come to mind.

It's only really in games based around wars and violence in general, where women tend to take the back seat, and that's normally the stuff aimed at men, including the triple A gaming market. But it only seems to be in gaming where the desire for more women in leading roles in violent series is expressed with any frequency. Most other forms of media don't seem to have the same complaints.

 

[chikusho]

Books and anime are the two best places for female characters overall. Anime does have it's fair share of fan service, it's true, but it also has a much higher percentage of women who are equal to or better than their male peers. Hell, I'd say 9/10 of the best female characters I can think of come from it.

Just saying "Anime" is a bit misleadning. In my experience, most female anime characters are buxom virgins, only there to cause sexual frustration for the protagonist. I'm not saying this is always the case, but an overwhelming amount of examples makes the genre unsuccessful in this regard.

The reason other genres or forms of media are less inclined to show it is largely down to money. They are often still stuck in this backwards notion that audiences want something in particular, when the reality is that many would be just as happy with more variety.

It's one of those things: Do the audiences keep buying these products with males typically in one role, and women typically in another because they want it? Or because they aren't given many options if they want something else?

Personally I am more inclined to believe it is the latter, but as they know that things will sell as they are, they keep on churning it out under the guise of "giving the audience what they want".

Good point. Hopefully, the trend I'm observing will help to change "what sells" into something more diverse and respectful.

As for television being a good place for decent female roles (people really need to stop using the word "strong"), I'd say it varies a lot. For example the new show Elementary, based on Sherlock Holmes, has Watson played by Lucy Liu, and she does a fantastic job in the role. Many CSI style programs have the main detective, or one of the main detectives as a woman as well.

I use "strong" mainly as a shortcut to "well realized". Strong doesn't necessarily mean muscled, but instead characters that aren't submissive in nature, or exist _just_ to serve as a romantic interest or a damsel in distress.

On the other hand, there are just as many television shows made for women, with their female leads being the kind of person who believes the ideal life is marrying a rich man, and spending all of his money in tanning salons, shopping and expensive holidays. Television in many ways is far more backwards than gaming and other forms of media.

Very true. This is part of the problem. I'm not saying these shows shouldn't exist, but the perception that women always want to see these kind of stories is troubling.

Films already have plenty of female protagonists, especially in non-action movie. In action movies it isn't too bad. Aeon Flux, Underworld, Ultra Violet, The Hunger Games and the Resident Evil films come to mind.

Good point with the action movies. Perhaps this is further evidence of a change in gender roles.

 

[lordmardok]

How did this thread even start without managing to mention shows like Nikita? Or Teen Wolf? Hell, we could go back to the halcyon days or yesteryear and harp on Buffy the Vampire Slayer but that's Joss Whedon and everyone knows that he's a genius future wizard.

I mean, Nikita has a female assassin as the main character, the secondary character is young runaway girl that she's training in counterespionage and sabotage. Seems like a pretty legitimate strong female lead and second lead.

Teen Wolf has the 'girlfriend' character be the daughter of a family of Hunters. She even goes full dark side during the last part of season 2. She's smart, quick, and has an actual character arc where she learns of her family's past and comes to terms with it, eventually becoming a better warrior than the titular character.

So yeah, that's a few examples I guess. This is of course not counting show's like Doctor Who where the 'companion' characters are generally strong independent women as well.

 

[Daft Time]

With shows like Arrow, Game of Thrones, Damages, Mad Men and even House of Cards in mind

Look, things have gotten better for female characters on TV recently. These examples? Not particularly good ones. Some show men as dominant or do nothing progressive. Not that these are all bad shows, it's just that they aren't examples of improvement. If you really want to see a show that gets it, watch Orphan Black.

If you're not watching this, you owe it to yourself to change that. It's the best science-fiction show I've ever seen. The acting is superb with the best written female characters on television. It's clever, darkly funny and constantly intriguing. It's also got well written homosexual characters, if it wasn't already awesome enough.

EDIT!

How did this thread even start without managing to mention shows like Nikita? Or Teen Wolf? Hell, we could go back to the halcyon days or yesteryear and harp on Buffy the Vampire Slayer but that's Joss Whedon and everyone knows that he's a genius future wizard.

To be fair, Nikita is well meaning but so very poorly written. It's pretty easy to forget. =P

 

[chikusho]

How did this thread even start without managing to mention shows like Nikita? Or Teen Wolf? Hell, we could go back to the halcyon days or yesteryear and harp on Buffy the Vampire Slayer but that's Joss Whedon and everyone knows that he's a genius future wizard.

I mean, Nikita has a female assassin as the main character, the secondary character is young runaway girl that she's training in counterespionage and sabotage. Seems like a pretty legitimate strong female lead and second lead.

Teen Wolf has the 'girlfriend' character be the daughter of a family of Hunters. She even goes full dark side during the last part of season 2. She's smart, quick, and has an actual character arc where she learns of her family's past and comes to terms with it, eventually becoming a better warrior than the titular character.

So yeah, that's a few examples I guess. This is of course not counting show's like Doctor Who where the 'companion' characters are generally strong independent women as well.

Yes, I pray towards Joss Whedon five times a day. But he's an exception rather than the rule.
I've never watched either of those shows. I saw the original Nikita movie though, which is excellent.
Probably good examples though. High five!

 

[chikusho]

Look, things have gotten better for female characters on TV recently. These examples? Not particularly good ones. Some show men as dominant or do nothing progressive. Not that these are all bad shows, it's just that they aren't examples of improvement. If you really want to see a show that gets it, watch Orphan Black.

If you're not watching this, you owe it to yourself to change that. It's the best science-fiction show I've ever seen. The acting is superb with the best written female characters on television. It's clever, darkly funny and constantly intriguing. It's also got well written homosexual characters, if it wasn't already awesome enough.

I thought I had replied to this, but apparently not.

You had me at Science Fiction, will get right on top off Orphan Black momentarily.

Also, please elaborate on why and which of my examples don't serve my point here. Would love to hear some dissentive opinions mainly because I hold them in such high regard.

 

[Legion]

Books and anime are the two best places for female characters overall. Anime does have it's fair share of fan service, it's true, but it also has a much higher percentage of women who are equal to or better than their male peers. Hell, I'd say 9/10 of the best female characters I can think of come from it.

Just saying "Anime" is a bit misleading. In my experience, most female anime characters are buxom virgins, only there to cause sexual frustration for the protagonist. I'm not saying this is always the case, but an overwhelming amount of examples makes the genre unsuccessful in this regard.

I meant anime has some extremely good female characters, not that the vast majority of female characters were good. The amount of "strong characters" in anime eclipses pretty much any other form of entertainment by a long shot. The negative kinds are also significantly higher, but when I said "overall" I didn't mean as a medium as a whole. I meant that compared to other forms of entertainment you are much more likely to find a decent female protagonist there than in other places (except books, as they were both in the same sentence).

If your experience of female characters are the majority of them being buxom virgins, only there to cause sexual frustration for the protagonist, I'd suggest that says more about your taste in anime, than it does the medium itself. I have only watched a single show that might reflect that description (Highschool of the Dead), and even then the characters are capable fighters on top of having embarrassing levels of fan service.

Anime does have a lot of negative stereotypes, but I am not of the persuasion that a bad thing automatically negates a good thing. The good characters are something to look to as encouragement, and the bad ones are an example of how not to do it. It's much better to have higher levels of both, than it is to have little of either, considering that bad characters don't actually cause any harm.

 

[Launcelot111]

I question your use of Mad Men for the advance of feminism. Peggy is the only one who really strikes me as being a progressive character, and they're still somewhat deliberate at having the male characters tear her down a bit (not as much as Joan though). Predatory creep Don Draper alone makes most women around him look weak, to the point where sometimes the best way it's progressive is by making a character's views look absurd or antiquated from a modern perspective.

I do think a good number of shows have gotten away from stereotypical "woman as moral standard" type roles (think the sitcom wife with hands on hips frowning at husband's antics) and portrayed women as more robust, or specifically, flawed, characters. Even compared to the movies, premium cable has a pretty strong monopoly on the Weeds/Nurse Jackie/Girls style of character.

 

[chikusho]

I meant anime has some extremely good female characters, not that the vast majority of female characters were good. The amount of "strong characters" in anime eclipses pretty much any other form of entertainment by a long shot. The negative kinds are also significantly higher, but when I said "overall" I didn't mean as a medium as a whole. I meant that compared to other forms of entertainment you are much more likely to find a decent female protagonist there than in other places (except books, as they were both in the same sentence).

If your experience of female characters are the majority of them being buxom virgins, only there to cause sexual frustration for the protagonist, I'd suggest that says more about your taste in anime, than it does the medium itself. I have only watched a single show that might reflect that description (Highschool of the Dead), and even then the characters are capable fighters on top of having embarrassing levels of fan service.

Anime does have a lot of negative stereotypes, but I am not of the persuasion that a bad thing automatically negates a good thing. The good characters are something to look to as encouragement, and the bad ones are an example of how not to do it. It's much better to have higher levels of both, than it is to have little of either, considering that bad characters don't actually cause any harm.

You might be right. Please provide some examples though. In my perception, women in anime are handled rather poorly as a rule, so I would love to have you change my mind.

 

[chikusho]

I question your use of Mad Men for the advance of feminism. Peggy is the only one who really strikes me as being a progressive character, and they're still somewhat deliberate at having the male characters tear her down a bit (not as much as Joan though). Predatory creep Don Draper alone makes most women around him look weak, to the point where sometimes the best way it's progressive is by making a character's views look absurd or antiquated from a modern perspective.

I do think a good number of shows have gotten away from stereotypical "woman as moral standard" type roles (think the sitcom wife with hands on hips frowning at husband's antics) and portrayed women as more robust, or specifically, flawed, characters. Even compared to the movies, premium cable has a pretty strong monopoly on the Weeds/Nurse Jackie/Girls style of character.

I included Mad Men simply because even though the show is set out to be somewhat of a time-capsule of the 60s and currently 70s, they still pay enough mind to not only include, but also feature women of that era in a respectful manner. Not respectful as role models, but having them be actually well developed characters that find success or fail by their own hands. To me, some of the most interesting scenes in Mad Men were when Betty Draper was home alone and desperate for any kind of acknowledgement as a human being. Having Peggy being such a winner in the advertisement business is a victory in it's own right, but I don't really find it necessary to the way Mad Men has choosen to portray women.
Don is probably one of the morally worst people on that show, but he usually gets away with it simply because he's attractive, intelligent and seemingly profound. Most men in Mad Men are morally bankrupt, having their social status rise far above their heads and still somehow missing how their actions eventually will have consequences. The women of that era are underdogs, and they have to fight for any kind of recognition, which I think Mad Men shows beautifully.

 

[Legion]

I meant anime has some extremely good female characters, not that the vast majority of female characters were good. The amount of "strong characters" in anime eclipses pretty much any other form of entertainment by a long shot. The negative kinds are also significantly higher, but when I said "overall" I didn't mean as a medium as a whole. I meant that compared to other forms of entertainment you are much more likely to find a decent female protagonist there than in other places (except books, as they were both in the same sentence).

If your experience of female characters are the majority of them being buxom virgins, only there to cause sexual frustration for the protagonist, I'd suggest that says more about your taste in anime, than it does the medium itself. I have only watched a single show that might reflect that description (Highschool of the Dead), and even then the characters are capable fighters on top of having embarrassing levels of fan service.

Anime does have a lot of negative stereotypes, but I am not of the persuasion that a bad thing automatically negates a good thing. The good characters are something to look to as encouragement, and the bad ones are an example of how not to do it. It's much better to have higher levels of both, than it is to have little of either, considering that bad characters don't actually cause any harm.

You might be right. Please provide some examples though. In my perception, women in anime are handled rather poorly as a rule, so I would love to have you change my mind.

I am not sure how effective that will be if you have never seen the shows in question, but very well.

Angel Beats! - Yuri Nakamura, Kanade Tachibana, Eri Shiina and Masami Iwasawa.
Blood + - Saya Otonashi
Code Geass - Kallen Statdfeld, C.C, Nunnally Lamperouge, Milly Ashford, Cornelia Li Brittania and Euphemia Li Brittania.
Darker Than Black - Amber, Kirihara Misaki and April.
Ergo Proxy - Re-l Mayer.
Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood - Izumi Curtis, Riza Hawkeye, Lan Fan, May Chang and Olivier Armstrong.
Ghost in the Shell - Motoko Kusanagi.
K-On! - Yui Hirasawa, Mio Akiyama, Ritsu Tainaka, Tsumugi Kotobuki, Azusa Nakano et al (AKA the main cast).
Mardock Scramble - Rune Balot
Neon Genesis Evangelion - Misoto Katsuragi and Asuka Langley Soryu.
Puella Magi Madoka Magica - Madoka Kaname, Homura Akemi, Mami Tomou, Sayaka Miki and Kyoko Sakura (AKA the main cast).
Spice and Wolf - Holo and Nora Arendt.
Texhnolyze - Ran.
The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya - Haruhi Suzumiya, Yuki Nagato, Mikuru Asahina and Tsuruya.

Note: These are only the characters with significant roles in the shows. Minor characters with a couple of lines, or no real plot relevance were not included.