Weighing in on Dark Souls (Not for fanboys)

[Nimzabaat]

I was recently reading another post extolling the virtues of a RPGs combat system. Apparently the game in question had ?better combat than Skyrim?. While that was mostly true, one of the comparisons that someone pulled out in the comment section was ?is it better than Dark Souls??. I recently played Dark Souls and now feel the need to share that experience.

ME: Well the beginning cinematic is pretty cool. Okay except for the name ?Nito?, but not everything can translate well.
ME: Holy crap, are the graphics really that bad?
DS: It?s just character creation, get over it.
ME: Okay. Okay. But seriously, this isn?t even Duke Nukem quality character models.
DS: That?s a low blow. People don?t play this game for the graphics, they play for the challenge!
ME: Fair enough. I mean I loved Alpha Protocol but the graphics were pretty lacking. All right let?s play!
ME: So I lock onto a target. Easy. I face the target. Cool. I?m in range. I attack? the nearest wall. Hm. Excuse me Mr Zombie can you stop stabbing my ass while I figure out why I can?t attack you.
DS: Oh you fell for the ?target lock should do something? trick! (snicker)
ME: Oh very funny. Okay well let?s bash the crap out of this thing without the lock.
DS: Okay, seriously it does kind of help with archery and spells.
ME: Yeah, whatever. So I do a power attack while falling to deal more damage? to myself and die instantly.
DS: (giggles with glee)
ME: Okay, whatever. I fight the big demon thing without insta-killing myself instead.
DS: We never said to follow the hints (snicker).
Several hours later?
ME: You know, i?ve come to a realization.
DS: (losing no smugness whatsoever) Oh really?
ME: If your controls weren?t executed by idiots this game would be really easy.
DS: (starting to look nervous) Um? what?
ME: While the layout makes sense, if my character did what the buttons are supposed to do when I pressed them, this would be no more difficult than Skyrim or Fable. I mean if in Skyrim your character only attacked on every 4th to 6th button click (to keep the player guessing), and blocking meant turning your back to your enemy. Well a skeever would be pretty damn challenging.
DS: No, you don?t get it, it?s not bad it?s challenging!
ME: Yes, but it?s the same kind of challenge as QWOP. You?re not fighting things in the game, you?re fighting the game itself. Which means you?re fighting bad game execution.
DS: Well if you feel that way, why don?t you play a game that wasn?t built by idiots?
ME: Actually that?s a really good idea.
DS: Wait! I didn?t really me?
Click.

To summarize, I can?t get behind anyone saying Dark Souls has ?good? or even ?adequate? combat. The games entire charm is that the combat is bad enough to make the game difficult.

 

[ColeusRattus]

I can't agree with you there. Dark Souls' (and demon's souls' for that matter) controls are stellar, and I have yet to die a single death that was caused by bad combat controls.

 

[AJax_21]

I can't agree with you there. Dark Souls' (and demon's souls' for that matter) controls are stellar, and I have yet to die a single death that was caused by bad combat controls.

There are quite a few bugs with the controls especially while trying to attack while blocking, although to the game's credit it's a very, very rare occurrence after the patch.

My advice to the OP. Yes, the controls need a little of bit getting used to and the game isn't impossibly hard as hyped if you approach every situation carefully. The real thrill and challenge comes from the multiplayer, especially PvP.

 

[go-10]

yes controls are bad but the world is so well designed that its just all kinds of good, difficulty isn't all its made out to be, actually its rather easy once you get the right equipment and understand enemy patterns

 

[Skin]

The controls add one layer of difficulty, but it is not as bad as you make it out to be.

If you were to complain about PVP balance, then I would jump right in and support you to the bitter end, but this... eh...

 

[peruvianskys]

difficulty isn't all its made out to be, actually its rather easy once you get the right equipment and understand enemy patterns

You're totally right, which is why I hated this game. It wasn't a challenge to my skills, it was just a challenge to my fucking patience. The combat wasn't too bad, although the camera was annoying a lot. Mostly I was just enraged by how tedious the whole thing was. I honestly don't get the appeal.

 

[Fishyash]

Even though I haven't really played dark souls I think I need to comment on this.
Sluggish controls are only bad if you don't design the game around them.

The controls "suck" on purpose. I am going to assume the main reason is that you can't just use your "super reflexes" to carry you through the game, but you need to stop and assess the situation. I haven't really played a game with truly slick controls that I can't just out maneuver or mash my way through.

I guess you would say castlevania's, prince of persia's and abe's oddesey's controls are bad too. In Castlevania the jumping doesn't work like a megaman game and there is a slight delay between pressing the attack button and the whip actually coming out. Abe's oddesey has general sluggishness and delays.

THAT is why the sluggish controls are there. It's definately there on purpose, because it's a good tool to make you have to actually think before confronting your obstacle.

 

[Swyftstar]

difficulty isn't all its made out to be, actually its rather easy once you get the right equipment and understand enemy patterns

You're totally right, which is why I hated this game. It wasn't a challenge to my skills, it was just a challenge to my fucking patience. The combat wasn't too bad, although the camera was annoying a lot. Mostly I was just enraged by how tedious the whole thing was. I honestly don't get the appeal.

The same problem I had with the game. The games aren't difficult. I like difficult. You get a rush when you overcome a hard level or a boss. The gameply in them is rather simple and easy. What these games are, is annoying. They try your patience and frustrate you. I don't count that as difficulty. I find it kind of cheap. Kind of like using a cat jumping out in a horror movie to get a cheap startle scare as opposed to being an actual scary movie.

 

[RJ 17]

Big snippage

Thank you very, VERY much. You, sir, spelled out exactly what my problem was with DS. It's one thing to have a game that's ridiculously challenging (see the modern Ninja Gaiden games) and boast "You're going to die over and over again since this game is so hard!" But when it's the mechanics (specifically controls) that make the game challenging, it's like rigging the game to MAKE the player fail over and over again. It's straight up out of the movie Joe Dirt where he's working at the carnival at the "land a quarter in the dish" game and he keeps spraying all the dishes with Pam.

 

[Wolfram23]

ME: While the layout makes sense, if my character did what the buttons are supposed to do when I pressed them, this would be no more difficult than Skyrim or Fable. I mean if in Skyrim your character only attacked on every 4th to 6th button click (to keep the player guessing), and blocking meant turning your back to your enemy. Well a skeever would be pretty damn challenging.

This makes me think you want to just button mash. ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK! Well, no. Your character behaves like a normal person and needs to, you know, swing, then recover from it and get ready to swing again... nobody can swing a long sword 5 times per second. DS is trying to convey that sense of realism with the combat. The swing itself also has a delay before the attack hits because like a person, your character needs to "load" the attack - that is, lift the sword up and then initiate a the swing momentum. There's also the stamina bar which depletes on swings, so you can only make maybe 3 at the start of the game before you character needs a chance to recover. This is also a fairly realistic representation.

As far as aiming goes, push the direction stick towards the enemy... not that hard. If the character locked on to the enemy all the time, it would become significantly harder to maneuver quickly.

Basically, it's different from your typical fast-swinging super hero RPGs, but it's a far more realistic representation of how a person actually fights. It emphasizes caution over aggression.

 

[Fat Hippo]

1. The character pretty much always does what you tell him to. Yes, you have to wait between actions, but if you are bothered by the fact that you can't do a double backwards somersault after bashing an enemy in the face 3 times within a single second, then this is obviously not the game for you. That is not meant in a patronizing or insulting manner, but it doesn't make it the game's fault either, however much this may frustrate you.
2. Bad graphics? What are you talking about? I have no idea what the resolution of the textures are, or what your particular issue is, but the art direction is goddamn stellar and just spot on. I think it's a very good looking game, I again fail to see what your problem in this area is.
3. If blocking made you turn your back to the enemy, you either encountered a rare glitch, or you just did something wrong. Again, not the game's fault.

Now, I'm not saying the game is perfect, not by any means. It can be a real *****, but I just wouldn't say any of the faults you listed are accurate. No, there's nothing wrong with not liking Dark Souls, but saying that it was made by idiots is just wrong. I rather get the impression that a great deal of thought was put into just about every mechanic. It IS a niche title though, and the developers were never trying to make a game that would suit everyone's tastes. That doesn't mean the execution was bad though.

 

[Samechiel]

This makes me think you want to just button mash. ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK! Well, no. Your character behaves like a normal person and needs to, you know, swing, then recover from it and get ready to swing again... nobody can swing a long sword 5 times per second. DS is trying to convey that sense of realism with the combat. The swing itself also has a delay before the attack hits because like a person, your character needs to "load" the attack - that is, lift the sword up and then initiate a the swing momentum. There's also the stamina bar which depletes on swings, so you can only make maybe 3 at the start of the game before you character needs a chance to recover. This is also a fairly realistic representation.

As far as aiming goes, push the direction stick towards the enemy... not that hard. If the character locked on to the enemy all the time, it would become significantly harder to maneuver quickly.

Basically, it's different from your typical fast-swinging super hero RPGs, but it's a far more realistic representation of how a person actually fights. It emphasizes caution over aggression.

This.

In my experience, the people who have issue with the controls are the same people who seem to think they're playing Diablo 2. They just mash attack and then scream, "WHY AM I DYING?!" when that shit doesn't work.

I laughed my ass off watching my brother try to play Dark Souls. He ran at everything and just started swinging. He never locked on, bitched constantly that the controls were horrible, moaned about how it was sooooo stupid that he actually had to hold a button to block instead of the game doing it for him, so on and so forth. I took the controller from him and started ripping through shit left and right and he just sat there and glared at me.

And for the record, OP, I don't think the only draw for Dark Souls is the challenge. The graphics are gorgeous in HD, without all the "brown and bloom" bullcrap that plague most games these days. The levels are well-designed and immensely atmospheric. The story, once you start getting into it, is quite good. Though the NPCs are a little scare, I actually found myself caring more about their fates than I did for 90% of the crew in Mass Effect 2; there isn't a force in heaven or earth that can stop me from fighting the final boss with the grossly incandescent sunbro Solaire at my side, I'll tell you that right now.

Thusly so, dear OP, I instead submit that you are not playing a game built by idiots -nay, sir, you are instead an idiot playing a game not meant for the lowly likes of you. Be that I were a less uncouth person perhaps I might suggest that you return to your "Call of Duty" or your "Modern Warfare" and leave the fine gaming delights such as the elegance of Dark Souls to players with far more refined and sophisticated tastes.

*puts her top hat and monocle on*

Now, if you would kindly excuse me, I must at once go and stab Seath the Scaleless repeatedly in his buttocks with a large knife and make a Moonlight Greatsword from his severed tail.

Good day, sirs.

 

[Skin]

I actually found myself caring more about their fates than I did for 90% of the crew in Mass Effect 2; there isn't a force in heaven or earth that can stop me from fighting the final boss with the grossly incandescent sunbro Solaire at my side, I'll tell you that right now.

Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!?

Spoiler

Manly tears were shed when I found Solaire having gone insane.

Yes, unlike most games being made today, Dark Souls was not intended to be streamlined to a mass audience. The game is here to shit on your soul, and then be extremely fun as you destroy bosses who previous shat on you.

Complaining about the controls in Dark Souls is just about the stupidest thing you can complain about. There are much bigger flaws in this game and you picked one that had nothing to do with game design, but rather your own skill. It would be like me complaining that Dragons were too hard in Skyrim, whereas the rest of the world has found them to be easy/fair.

You have missed an opportunity the create a thread where we could have worthwhile criticisms of the game, and instead opened yourself up to a salvo of belittling.

 

[Spacewolf]

I always presumed DS was similar to MH where most things can kill you easily and you need to attack things for ages to kill them, the controls on that took alot of getting used to as well L1 to center camera right analog stick to attack. I got my ass kicked by the first Wyvern for about a week since the YKK is a fast attacker with very in the way of telegraphing but once you get over that hump its difficulty scales up more fairly as after that first fight you know how to move quickly, recognise telegraphs and find and exploit weak points

 

[Slash Dementia]

I had none of those problems. Yes, at first, the controls were difficult, but that's because I played hours of Skyrim prior to it and it took time to get used to it. Button response was pretty spot on for me, and the hints were good and didn't lead me astray.

The combat in Dark Souls is better than Skyrims. You have to calculate how many swings before you tire--unlike Skyrim, where you can unmercifully spam your dual wielded weapons or simply charge things without thinking. Walls factor in--I don't remember if they do in Skyrim--and it makes you either change position or take the fight elsewhere. It just feels better in Dark Souls.

The graphics could be better, but the immersion is good. The setting is gorgeous (gorgeous view ahead). I don't see the problem with this.

What you have are complaints that you couldn't do something easily, but the only reason for that is that it's a different game.

 

[Wolfram23]

Thusly so, dear OP, I instead submit that you are not playing a game built by idiots -nay, sir, you are instead an idiot playing a game not meant for the lowly likes of you. Be that I were a less uncouth person perhaps I might suggest that you return to your "Call of Duty" or your "Modern Warfare" and leave the fine gaming delights such as the elegance of Dark Souls to players with far more refined and sophisticated tastes.

*puts her top hat and monocle on*

Now, if you would kindly excuse me, I must at once go and stab Seath the Scaleless repeatedly in his buttocks with a large knife and make a Moonlight Greatsword from his severed tail.

Good day, sirs.

Cheerio!

Actually, I know this is sexist, but I was a tad surprised to read "her". Which I also think is awesome. The only girls I know who game are... not into games like DS, let me tell you.

Anyway, keep repin' it for the ladies!

 

[krazykidd]

Thusly so, dear OP, I instead submit that you are not playing a game built by idiots -nay, sir, you are instead an idiot playing a game not meant for the lowly likes of you. Be that I were a less uncouth person perhaps I might suggest that you return to your "Call of Duty" or your "Modern Warfare" and leave the fine gaming delights such as the elegance of Dark Souls to players with far more refined and sophisticated tastes.

*puts her top hat and monocle on*

Now, if you would kindly excuse me, I must at once go and stab Seath the Scaleless repeatedly in his buttocks with a large knife and make a Moonlight Greatsword from his severed tail.

Good day, sirs.

Cheerio!

Actually, I know this is sexist, but I was a tad surprised to read "her". Which I also think is awesome. The only girls I know who game are... not into games like DS, let me tell you.

Anyway, keep repin' it for the ladies!

BUHWAHHH?! A woman wearing a top hat? Now i have seen everything .

OT: the controlles don't suck. This isn't God of war , or zelda you know . You can just spam attack ( or swing your wiimote in zeldas case) and expect to rip shit up .

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

ME: So I lock onto a target. Easy. I face the target. Cool. I?m in range. I attack? the nearest wall. Hm. Excuse me Mr Zombie can you stop stabbing my ass while I figure out why I can?t attack you.
DS: Oh you fell for the ?target lock should do something? trick! (snicker)

I don't get this. There's no "target lock" trick. You'll almost always want to be locked on to enemies when attacking. If you have a sword in your right hand and your right side is up against a wall, you're going to hit the wall when you attack because you can't swing a sword through a wall.

ME: While the layout makes sense, if my character did what the buttons are supposed to do when I pressed them, this would be no more difficult than Skyrim or Fable. I mean if in Skyrim your character only attacked on every 4th to 6th button click (to keep the player guessing), and blocking meant turning your back to your enemy. Well a skeever would be pretty damn challenging.
DS: No, you don?t get it, it?s not bad it?s challenging!
ME: Yes, but it?s the same kind of challenge as QWOP. You?re not fighting things in the game, you?re fighting the game itself. Which means you?re fighting bad game execution.

If you use fast weapons like the bandit knife, scimitar, katana, etc., you'll be attacking almost immediately when you press the attack button. The bigger, stronger weapons are slower. And, if you don't have the strength or dex to wield the weapon properly, then you swing the weapon super slow, but the game warns you when you equip a weapon that you don't have the right stats for. I do agree that when holding your shield WITHOUT being locked on, you should step backward instead of your character turning around going the other way. That has caused me many a death. Lastly, the game isn't even hard once you learn how to play it, I've made it through whole dungeons and bosses without dying once. Just take it slow, fight enemies one at a time, and let the enemy attack first when coming across a new enemy to learn their attack patterns.

 

[MiracleOfSound]

Huh. Of all the brain melting rage I've felt towards DS and its various mechanics, none of it has been towards the controls. I think they do the job just fine to be honest.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

This makes me think you want to just button mash. ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK! Well, no. Your character behaves like a normal person and needs to, you know, swing, then recover from it and get ready to swing again... nobody can swing a long sword 5 times per second. DS is trying to convey that sense of realism with the combat. The swing itself also has a delay before the attack hits because like a person, your character needs to "load" the attack - that is, lift the sword up and then initiate a the swing momentum. There's also the stamina bar which depletes on swings, so you can only make maybe 3 at the start of the game before you character needs a chance to recover. This is also a fairly realistic representation.

As far as aiming goes, push the direction stick towards the enemy... not that hard. If the character locked on to the enemy all the time, it would become significantly harder to maneuver quickly.

Basically, it's different from your typical fast-swinging super hero RPGs, but it's a far more realistic representation of how a person actually fights. It emphasizes caution over aggression.

This.

In my experience, the people who have issue with the controls are the same people who seem to think they're playing Diablo 2. They just mash attack and then scream, "WHY AM I DYING?!" when that shit doesn't work.

I laughed my ass off watching my brother try to play Dark Souls. He ran at everything and just started swinging. He never locked on, bitched constantly that the controls were horrible, moaned about how it was sooooo stupid that he actually had to hold a button to block instead of the game doing it for him, so on and so forth.

Do people really use the lock on a lot? I'm halfway through NG+ and I have never used the lock on. I found it way too restrictive and it caused me to make mistakes.