What do people actually want male gamers to be like?

[Doclector]

Seriously, I'm fed up of this shit. Since this gamergate thing has sprung up, many people, including actual sites, have accused male gamers of everything shitty under the sun. I'm getting pretty sick of being painted as the world's biggest asshole because I dared to play fucking videogames AND have testicles.

It didn't even just start here. It's been going on for years. And y'know what, because what the fuck else was I supposed to do, I tried to meet people's standards. I kept hearing that people found fat male gamers unattractive and creepy, so I did my best not to even go near women I don't know so I wouldn't piss anyone off. Whether a purchase makes me look like a creep is an actual factor in my game and movie buying decisions for fear of someone taking a photo of me and putting it on some tumblr blog along with my contact details so they can make my life hell for buying a guardians of the galaxy comic that could've done with far more thought put into the front cover. For the past year or so, anytime I've gone outside, I've lived by the rules that have been set down for me lest I be doxxed, shamed, and exiled from any nerd community.

Now? Now I don't even know what they fucking want from me. So what is it? What do you want me to do? Do you want me to just agree with Quinn, even though even if the allegations against her are untrue, her behaviour in the entire incident has blatantly illustrated that if nothing else, she's a terrible fucking person? Do you want me to just not talk about it at all? Never mind the bigger problems with male identity in this community. One bunch of people wants me to be alpha, another wants me to be anything but. One bunch of people wants me to come out of my shell, another wants me to stay the fuck inside no matter what. It ain't enough to just try to be a good person, fuck no would anyone on ANY side of this shitstorm want things to be that simple, GOD FUCKING FORBID THAT IT BE AS SIMPLE AS JUST TRYING TO BE A DECENT FUCKING HUMAN BEING. Jesus, ain't as if I was ever an actual misogynist to begin with, I always respected people, but then a bunch of people starting saying that it isn't enough.

I'm sick of it, and I just want a clear fucking answer, y'know? Because fact is, this isn't going away. There's gonna be another set of rules, so I may as well at least be clear on what the fuck they are this time.

/rant

 

[Thaluikhain]

It ain't enough to just try to be a good person, fuck no would anyone on ANY side of this shitstorm want things to be that simple, GOD FUCKING FORBID THAT IT BE AS SIMPLE AS JUST TRYING TO BE A DECENT FUCKING HUMAN BEING.

What made you think that being a decent person was simple? If it was easy, everyone would do it.

And, TBH, a rant like this doesn't really give me the impression that you are too interested in actually trying to be decent person, rather than going through the motions to make you look like one. Common mistake, but a bad one.

 

[dragoongfa]

What made you think that being a decent person was simple? If it was easy, everyone would do it.

And, TBH, a rant like this doesn't really give me the impression that you are too interested in actually trying to be decent person, rather than going through the motions to make you look like one. Common mistake, but a bad one.

If ranting on the Internet is a mark of an undecent person then the entirety of the Internet are aholes.

@Doclector

I see where you are coming from and I will be honest with you; you only made one mistake. You listened to people who don't know anything about you and adapted your behavior to their baseless critique.

Be yourself and don't harm others. That's what a decent person is all about and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

 

[clinicalPsychologist]

It didn't even just start here. It's been going on for years. And y'know what, because what the fuck else was I supposed to do, I tried to meet people's standards. I kept hearing that people found fat male gamers unattractive and creepy, so I did my best not to even go near women I don't know so I wouldn't piss anyone off. Whether a purchase makes me look like a creep is an actual factor in my game and movie buying decisions for fear of someone taking a photo of me and putting it on some tumblr blog along with my contact details so they can make my life hell for buying a guardians of the galaxy comic that could've done with far more thought put into the front cover. For the past year or so, anytime I've gone outside, I've lived by the rules that have been set down for me lest I be doxxed, shamed, and exiled from any nerd community.

Wow, where do you live? Sounds like a really toxic community. I never heard anything like that (I'm from Germany and live in a University City so nerd culture is really big here). Something like that would never happen here.
I don't actually have any suggestion except of maybe moving to somewhere not that hostile asap. Sorry. You shouldn't have to "hide" like that, but you can't change a whole community, so...

 

[dragonswarrior]

Folks just want male gamers to listen and stop acting like they're the only ones entitled to games or gaming culture.

Like seriously, just listen. That's it. If someone is like "this is sexist" don't just be like "You're a feminazi!" actually listen to what they're saying and give it some thought. If someone is like "this is racist" don't just scream "Artistic integrity!" Actually listen to what they're saying and give it some thought.

And for folks to stop making death and rape threats, and to stop thinking that's "okay" or "just part of the culture." It's not okay.

There is some other stuff too, like how your rant is kinda missing the point. It'd be nice for male gamers to stop doing things like that. Acting like they're this horribly put upon group of people, when really the whole industry and culture still caters to them.

Equality does NOT mean oppression-for-males folks! It just feels like that to you because you've been so privileged. Losing those privileges is gonna hurt for a bit. You gotta role with it and remember it's for a good cause. And that others have had it worse off than you for years and they don't really appreciate it when that's finally acknowledged and some dude comes along with no idea of how good he's got it spouting shit like "well what about MY rights?"

It ain't cool man. It just ain't cool.

 

[Thaluikhain]

What made you think that being a decent person was simple? If it was easy, everyone would do it.

And, TBH, a rant like this doesn't really give me the impression that you are too interested in actually trying to be decent person, rather than going through the motions to make you look like one. Common mistake, but a bad one.

If ranting on the Internet is a mark of an undecent person then the entirety of the Internet are aholes.

True, I meant "a rant along these lines" not "a rant, which this is".

Losing those privileges is gonna hurt for a bit.

I'd argue that for most people, it actually doesn't. There's this terrible fear that treating others more equally is going to be awful (for some reason), but most people aren't actually affected at all when it happens.

 

[DemomanHusband]

Folks just want male gamers to listen and stop acting like they're the only ones entitled to games or gaming culture.

Like seriously, just listen. That's it. If someone is like "this is sexist" don't just be like "You're a feminazi!" actually listen to what they're saying and give it some thought. If someone is like "this is racist" don't just scream "Artistic integrity!" Actually listen to what they're saying and give it some thought.

And for folks to stop making death and rape threats, and to stop thinking that's "okay" or "just part of the culture." It's not okay.

There is some other stuff too, like how your rant is kinda missing the point. It'd be nice for male gamers to stop doing things like that. Acting like they're this horribly put upon group of people, when really the whole industry and culture still caters to them.

Equality does NOT mean oppression-for-males folks! It just feels like that to you because you've been so privileged. Losing those privileges is gonna hurt for a bit. You gotta role with it and remember it's for a good cause. And that others have had it worse off than you for years and they don't really appreciate it when that's finally acknowledged and some dude comes along with no idea of how good he's got it spouting shit like "well what about MY rights?"

It ain't cool man. It just ain't cool.

Here's the thing though, "this is sexist" almost never gets met with a response of "You're a feminazi!" It's only when that same complaint gets shoved down everyone's throat as the complainer in question tries their hardest to make their voices heard without adequately explaining what is sexist about what they saw/played in the first place that people start claiming feminazi/SJW status. The very fact that many SJW types refuse to admit they might be wrong while at the same time refusing to believe anyone who disagrees with them might be right just digs their own coffin deeper. And before anyone claims that I don't see the irony, yes I do see it. However, at least #GG types and neutrals tend to understand the points they may be incorrect on, and don't tend to respond to criticism with outright insults or masking their toxic ideas as "polite advice."

 

[Popido]

Equality does NOT mean oppression-for-males folks! It just feels like that to you because you've been so privileged. Losing those privileges is gonna hurt for a bit.

Okay, I bite for once.

Equality is about bringing people up to the same level, not down.

Also, the motto is "Listen & Believe", not "Listen & Think". Thats closer to Half-Life's motto "Run. Think. Shoot. Live.".

Good thread otherwise.

 

[Doclector]

Folks just want male gamers to listen and stop acting like they're the only ones entitled to games or gaming culture.

Like seriously, just listen. That's it. If someone is like "this is sexist" don't just be like "You're a feminazi!" actually listen to what they're saying and give it some thought. If someone is like "this is racist" don't just scream "Artistic integrity!" Actually listen to what they're saying and give it some thought.

And for folks to stop making death and rape threats, and to stop thinking that's "okay" or "just part of the culture." It's not okay.

There is some other stuff too, like how your rant is kinda missing the point. It'd be nice for male gamers to stop doing things like that. Acting like they're this horribly put upon group of people, when really the whole industry and culture still caters to them.

Equality does NOT mean oppression-for-males folks! It just feels like that to you because you've been so privileged. Losing those privileges is gonna hurt for a bit. You gotta role with it and remember it's for a good cause. And that others have had it worse off than you for years and they don't really appreciate it when that's finally acknowledged and some dude comes along with no idea of how good he's got it spouting shit like "well what about MY rights?"

It ain't cool man. It just ain't cool.

For one, I've always been fucked with. Maybe people didn't shit on me for the same reasons, but they still shit on me. Don't assume that just because I was born with balls that I was born privileged. And I have listened. I've done nothing but listen. That's why I've been doing all this shit. Because I kept hearing that I wasn't wanted around, so I just stayed the fuck out of the way, but now you want me to just sit here while everyone accuses me of shit I've never fucking done just because I play videogames. No, sorry, I'm not prepared to just accept that like it's fine, like it's "balance" or some shit. Like I'm supposed to feel like justice is being done when I can see people looking at me like I'm shit and laughing and telling jokes about me, like I'm supposed to feel fucking happy that someone could ruin my fucking life just because I disagreed with something they said.

I spent my entire childhood being insulted, beat the fuck up, made to be afraid and ashamed of who I am, I'm not fucking going back to that because of this. No fucking way.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Here's the thing though, "this is sexist" almost never gets met with a response of "You're a feminazi!"

No, it's more often rape and death threats.

Less flippantly, what's the instinctive response to being called out on bad behaviour? That something they've long seen as perfectly fine is actually a problem?

Nobody enjoys having that pointed out.

 

[BadNewDingus]

I think it's because gaming has gone mainstream. Well, it's been mainstream for a while. I blame the stupid tablets and phones with their "match the colors" games. Let us also not forget that all the consoles have some sort of streaming feature and other pointless bullcrap that they put ahead of gaming.

Also, whenever someone tries to defend a game they like but still has a woman in a bikini in it ... they're sexist pigs. As if the people hating on him don't notice the real world and all the magazines and videos that supposedly objectify women.

I also don't go by the people who are trying to change gaming had it worse off. There are still games out there for people who don't want to deal with said sexist game. The sad part is that they don't defend those games. Instead, they would rather cry about the games a majority of people like. What do you expect from the internet?

 

[Ichiro Oogami]

Folks just want male gamers to listen and stop acting like they're the only ones entitled to games or gaming culture.

Like seriously, just listen. That's it. If someone is like "this is sexist" don't just be like "You're a feminazi!" actually listen to what they're saying and give it some thought. If someone is like "this is racist" don't just scream "Artistic integrity!" Actually listen to what they're saying and give it some thought.

The fear is that "maybe this is problematic" will become "write/read story X and you're fired, you racist/sexist/homophobe."

It follows a similar pattern to the older, right-wing moral crusades against video games. When Phyllis Schlafly and the like criticized video games as harmful to society, the gaming community did scream "Artistic integrity!" -- and it was treated as legitimate.

Brown v. EMA was pretty much a lawyer screaming "Artistic integrity!" at the government of California when it tried to regulate games.

"This is racist/sexist/etc." means "this is immoral." Whenever someone says or implies that some media is immoral, it is to eliminate it and erase the perceived threat to public values. It is like calling someone's favorite game a piece of garbage; accusations of "racism" and "sexism" against a game are little better than schoolyard insults, as they imply that the creators are nefarious reprobates.

Why should an artist listen to a detractor who demands the artist make a game to their liking?

There is some other stuff too, like how your rant is kinda missing the point. It'd be nice for male gamers to stop doing things like that. Acting like they're this horribly put upon group of people, when really the whole industry and culture still caters to them.

Equality does NOT mean oppression-for-males folks! It just feels like that to you because you've been so privileged. Losing those privileges is gonna hurt for a bit. You gotta role with it and remember it's for a good cause. And that others have had it worse off than you for years and they don't really appreciate it when that's finally acknowledged and some dude comes along with no idea of how good he's got it spouting shit like "well what about MY rights?"

It ain't cool man. It just ain't cool.

People don't like being ordered around, especially if they're artists. Why should they listen to a self-appointed "equality activist" about what they're allowed to put in their games, or about what games they should play? If these activists care so much, why don't they put in the blood, sweat and tears to make their own stuff to the level of the AAAs, rather than bullying those who paid their dues about what to put in or what they should play?

And let's say this "equality" is achieved. The formerly privileged group would still need to be restricted to keep them from pulling ahead of the others and "re-creating" the older conditions by mistake.

Therefore, quashing artistic freedom in the name of "equality" is much more problematic than a CoD clone featuring a gruff white guy, because the quashing must go on forever.

It ain't cool man. It just ain't cool.

 

[Cati]

There is some other stuff too, like how your rant is kinda missing the point. It'd be nice for male gamers to stop doing things like that. Acting like they're this horribly put upon group of people, when really the whole industry and culture still caters to them.

You kinda forget that "male gamers" as a group are actually very diverse. No wonder they get a bit peeved when people assume they're all supremely privileged.

 

[visiblenoise]

The gaming "community" has no consensus whatsoever, so there's no winning there. The general public would rather you didn't define yourself so completely through your hobbies.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Why should an artist listen to a detractor who demands the artist make a game to their liking?

Exactly, why should they?

They are free to continue ignoring any and all people criticism their games for sexist elements.

You kinda forget that "male gamers" as a group are actually very diverse. No wonder they get a bit peeved when people assume they're all supremely privileged.

Excepting, of course, that all male gamers have, by definition, male privilege. Any and all other privileges may or may not be held by any given male gamer, they very often will have lots of legitimate complaints about depictions in games based on other factors, but they will have that privilege.

 

[NCLanceman]

The gaming "community" has no consensus whatsoever, so there's no winning there. The general public would rather you didn't define yourself so completely through your hobbies.

Except that nerd is chic now, for some reason. Even if the general public doesn't really get what makes a nerd in the first place. Which is why it's generally a bad idea to rigorously define yourself by what others think of you and just be yourself.

 

[Ichiro Oogami]

You kinda forget that "male gamers" as a group are actually very diverse. No wonder they get a bit peeved when people assume they're all supremely privileged.

Excepting, of course, that all male gamers have, by definition, male privilege. Any and all other privileges may or may not be held by any given male gamer, they very often will have lots of legitimate complaints about depictions in games based on other factors, but they will have that privilege.

Don't assume that a man is, by definition, privileged.

 

[squall9126]

My philosophy is fuck everyone. If they can't understand and appreciate me for being me then they aren't worth my time, simple as that. I like video games, anime, heavy metal and lots of other stuff that western society in general either still views as counter-culture or childish, stuff that would be normal in other parts of the world. I think Anita Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn are idiots who don't know what they're talking about half the time, does that make me a misogynist? Most of their opponents are equally stupid or even more so, and the guys who send them death and rape threats are fucking scum. Does that make me a misandrist? Am I a Social Justice Warrior or White Knight? Am I a Neckbeard or Manchild? We have too many goddamned labels these days.

Do what makes you happy, as long as it isn't SERIOUSLY hurting other people. If they wan't to get their underwear in a twist about what you do then feel sorry for them, they aren't fulfilled enough in their lives and have to meddle in yours. It sucks but that's life, shitty till the day you die then it's a wonderful journey, barring of course living in a warzone and having to deal with all the shit that comes with that, those people have it tough. If things seem bad where you are then move if/when you can. If you live in a small town and it's always been a small town then you won't fit in no matter what you do unless you conform their standards, and trust me, that's no way to live denying who you really are.

 

[VVThoughtBox]

People want white male gamers to admit that that they're sinners, repent, and accept Anita and Zoe as their Lord and Saviors.