What Does It Mean To Player Character?

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

It's a really interesting watch. It also describes why I compare Telltale games to RPGs like Witcher 3 for how much actual role-playing is present as they both utilize "role-flexible" main characters.

Edit:
Errant Signal basically talks about the state of player characters in single player RPGs, highlighting the 3 main types. He's not trying to prove anything right or wrong, just talking about role-playing in a digital medium basically. I found it interesting due to the fact that most RPGs mainly focus on combat and static narrative (for the most part) instead of role-playing. For me, an RPG is about the world/characters reflecting your choices, it's not about the RPG elements like stats, levels, loot, etc.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

Any chance of a TLR, or simply positing the talking points of the video in text form? 28 minutes of homework before any discussion can happen is quite an ask. 😲

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Basically because it would be extremely cost prohibitive to do a purely character/world driven RPG well enough to be worthwhile. Building a persistently dynamic world and characters that react appropriately to your words and actions is still in its infancy, and would require teams far greater than the hundreds and around half a decade development time they currently have to build the ?easier? style combat/stat-focused RPG that is prevalent.

That is why the simple board games are ?kicking their asses? as OP always likes to say, because it takes all the time, money and effort out of it and leaves it up to the players? imagination.

 

[CaitSeith]

The absence of JRPGs makes the video feel incomplete.

 

[meiam]

The absence of JRPGs makes the video feel incomplete.

I think it's mostly about role playing game from a story point of view, which JRPG tend to be completely absent of. Few of them ever have any choices, most choice are fake choice (ie if you say no it just repeat the question until you say yes). A few of them have a major choice at the end, but its usually ridiculously binary (do you want to save or destroy the world?).

I think with artificial intelligence making good progress we'll be able to see game that really let the player take all kinds of choice and see how the world react. Maybe in as little as a decade (let say elder scroll 8). But until then we'll just see case where all branching path lead to the same point in the end, because otherwise the number of scenario grow exponentially. 5 binary choice leads to 32 different scenarios, most of which will never be seen by the player. That's a lot of wasted man power.

 

[CaitSeith]

The absence of JRPGs makes the video feel incomplete.

I think it's mostly about role playing game from a story point of view, which JRPG tend to be completely absent of. Few of them ever have any choices, most choice are fake choice (ie if you say no it just repeat the question until you say yes). A few of them have a major choice at the end, but its usually ridiculously binary (do you want to save or destroy the world?).

That's not very different to the 3rd type of character in the video.

 

[meiam]

The absence of JRPGs makes the video feel incomplete.

I think it's mostly about role playing game from a story point of view, which JRPG tend to be completely absent of. Few of them ever have any choices, most choice are fake choice (ie if you say no it just repeat the question until you say yes). A few of them have a major choice at the end, but its usually ridiculously binary (do you want to save or destroy the world?).

That's not very different to the 3rd type of character in the video.

Ay, hence why there's not much of a point in covering it separately.

 

[Squilookle]

Any chance of a TLR, or simply positing the talking points of the video in text form? 28 minutes of homework before any discussion can happen is quite an ask. 😲

Exactly what I'm waiting for. No summary = No watch

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Basically because it would be extremely cost prohibitive to do a purely character/world driven RPG well enough to be worthwhile. Building a persistently dynamic world and characters that react appropriately to your words and actions is still in its infancy, and would require teams far greater than the hundreds and around half a decade development time they currently have to build the ?easier? style combat/stat-focused RPG that is prevalent.

That is why the simple board games are ?kicking their asses? as OP always likes to say, because it takes all the time, money and effort out of it and leaves it up to the players? imagination.

You could easily take that huge team of designers that you have creating massive open worlds (usually for no reason) and have those people dedicated to other things. Mass Effect did character and choice driven RPG decently (definitely fumbled a bit in ME3 and that's before the ending). People are interested in Quantic Dream games for the very reason of seeing how choice impacts their playthrough. That is what RPGs SHOULD focus on, they aren't supposed to be combat games, devs only fallback on combat making up a large amount of the content because combat is just easier to develop for. You can't get better at something hard if you just kept falling back on the easier stuff. RPGs are usually just overly long and poor combat games. Also, an RPG doesn't have to be some 50+ game, you can make a shorter 20 hour RPG that focuses on choices and their consequences as the longer the story is, the harder it is to integrate player choice.

I say board games are kicking video games asses in GAME DESIGN (mechanics and such), not because there isn't better role-playing (which PnP will always have the edge on).

Any chance of a TLR, or simply positing the talking points of the video in text form? 28 minutes of homework before any discussion can happen is quite an ask. 😲

Exactly what I'm waiting for. No summary = No watch

Uhh... I did put a summary right after KingsGambit replied.

 

[CaitSeith]

I say board games are kicking video games asses in GAME DESIGN (mechanics and such), not because there isn't better role-playing (which PnP will always have the edge on).

Could be because board game design is easier than videogame design, as the former doesn't have to worry about UI, AI and other functions so the latter needs to properly integrate into the mechanics?

Nah, you're right! Apples and oranges should be comparable. /s

 

[Silvanus]

I say board games are kicking video games asses in GAME DESIGN (mechanics and such), not because there isn't better role-playing (which PnP will always have the edge on).

No way. Board games have nothing on pure dice games, the true pinnacle of game design. By comparison, board games are overdeveloped, crowded with unnecessary mechanics and poor roleplaying. In a dice game you can be whoever you want: literally everything is possible. The ultimate focus is on pure gameplay, as it should be... not these imperfectly-implemented tangential ideas.

Yahtzee is close to perfection, but it compromises the integrity of its gameplay by including a dice shaker.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

I say board games are kicking video games asses in GAME DESIGN (mechanics and such), not because there isn't better role-playing (which PnP will always have the edge on).

No way. Board games have nothing on pure dice games, the true pinnacle of game design. By comparison, board games are overdeveloped, crowded with unnecessary mechanics and poor roleplaying. In a dice game you can be whoever you want: literally everything is possible. The ultimate focus is on pure gameplay, as it should be... not these imperfectly-implemented tangential ideas.

Yahtzee is close to perfection, but it compromises the integrity of its gameplay by including a dice shaker.

How about dreaming. Everything else falls way, way short. Purely player-driven and you don?t even need any stupid, flawed, gimmicky ?pieces? or controllers. Hell, you don?t even need a chair or a bed. A simple flat surface will do.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

I say board games are kicking video games asses in GAME DESIGN (mechanics and such), not because there isn't better role-playing (which PnP will always have the edge on).

Could be because board game design is easier than videogame design, as the former doesn't have to worry about UI, AI and other functions so the latter needs to properly integrate into the mechanics?

Nah, you're right! Apples and oranges should be comparable. /s

Gloomhaven actually has more advanced AI than a JRPG and Gloomhaven AI is just done by drawing cards.

 

[CaitSeith]

I say board games are kicking video games asses in GAME DESIGN (mechanics and such), not because there isn't better role-playing (which PnP will always have the edge on).

Could be because board game design is easier than videogame design, as the former doesn't have to worry about UI, AI and other functions so the latter needs to properly integrate into the mechanics?

Nah, you're right! Apples and oranges should be comparable. /s

Gloomhaven actually has more advanced AI than a JRPG and Gloomhaven AI is just done by drawing cards.

No, it doesn't.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

I say board games are kicking video games asses in GAME DESIGN (mechanics and such), not because there isn't better role-playing (which PnP will always have the edge on).

Could be because board game design is easier than videogame design, as the former doesn't have to worry about UI, AI and other functions so the latter needs to properly integrate into the mechanics?

Nah, you're right! Apples and oranges should be comparable. /s

Gloomhaven actually has more advanced AI than a JRPG and Gloomhaven AI is just done by drawing cards.

No, it doesn't.

Gloomhaven enemies actually move...

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

I say board games are kicking video games asses in GAME DESIGN (mechanics and such), not because there isn't better role-playing (which PnP will always have the edge on).

Could be because board game design is easier than videogame design, as the former doesn't have to worry about UI, AI and other functions so the latter needs to properly integrate into the mechanics?

Nah, you're right! Apples and oranges should be comparable. /s

Gloomhaven actually has more advanced AI than a JRPG and Gloomhaven AI is just done by drawing cards.

Actions based on a random number generator aren't AI.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

I say board games are kicking video games asses in GAME DESIGN (mechanics and such), not because there isn't better role-playing (which PnP will always have the edge on).

Could be because board game design is easier than videogame design, as the former doesn't have to worry about UI, AI and other functions so the latter needs to properly integrate into the mechanics?

Nah, you're right! Apples and oranges should be comparable. /s

Gloomhaven actually has more advanced AI than a JRPG and Gloomhaven AI is just done by drawing cards.

Actions based on a random number generator aren't AI.

It's not like that isn't in video games either FFVI AI table [https://masterzed.cavesofnarshe.com/HackDocs/ff6aifts.htm]. There's other rules to Gloomhaven enemies than just what is printed on each card (each enemy type has a different deck obviously). Gloomhaven enemies move unlike enemies in classic JRPGs, that alone makes combat far more tactical.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

I say board games are kicking video games asses in GAME DESIGN (mechanics and such), not because there isn't better role-playing (which PnP will always have the edge on).

Could be because board game design is easier than videogame design, as the former doesn't have to worry about UI, AI and other functions so the latter needs to properly integrate into the mechanics?

Nah, you're right! Apples and oranges should be comparable. /s

Gloomhaven actually has more advanced AI than a JRPG and Gloomhaven AI is just done by drawing cards.

Actions based on a random number generator aren't AI.

It's not like that isn't in video games either FFVI AI table [https://masterzed.cavesofnarshe.com/HackDocs/ff6aifts.htm]. There's other rules to Gloomhaven enemies than just what is printed on each card (each enemy type has a different deck obviously). Gloomhaven enemies move unlike enemies in classic JRPGs, that alone makes combat far more tactical.

FF6 is from 1994. Yes, the AI in a 25 year old game is basically non-existent, what's your point?

I wouldn't look to something like Final Fantasy for an example of what is or isn't good AI anyway.

If a game isn't reacting to what the player is doing, and actively trying to counter it then the AI it's running isn't good, and if the game's enemies just use random number generators to determine what their attacks are then the AI isn't just bad, it's nonexistent because there isn't any intelligence in the design if the enemies are just things at random.

 

[CaitSeith]

I say board games are kicking video games asses in GAME DESIGN (mechanics and such), not because there isn't better role-playing (which PnP will always have the edge on).

Could be because board game design is easier than videogame design, as the former doesn't have to worry about UI, AI and other functions so the latter needs to properly integrate into the mechanics?

Nah, you're right! Apples and oranges should be comparable. /s

Gloomhaven actually has more advanced AI than a JRPG and Gloomhaven AI is just done by drawing cards.

No, it doesn't.

Gloomhaven enemies actually move...

Correction: someone moves the enemies. Also someone has to keep track of the damage the enemies receive for moving into a trap.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

FF6 is from 1994. Yes, the AI in a 25 year old game is basically non-existent, what's your point?

I wouldn't look to something like Final Fantasy for an example of what is or isn't good AI anyway.

If a game isn't reacting to what the player is doing, and actively trying to counter it then the AI it's running isn't good, and if the game's enemies just use random number generators to determine what their attacks are then the AI isn't just bad, it's nonexistent because there isn't any intelligence in the design if the enemies are just things at random.

JRPGs evolve at a snail's pace though. I tried FF6, didn't like it, then I figured I'd try FF10, it was the same fucking game from a gameplay perspective (and worse in some regards). Even FF12 was the same battle system, just automated. Just about any JRPG doesn't react to what the player is doing. I really liked Xenosaga 2's battle system but the AI would never do to you what you did to it (knock enemies up/down), same thing with Resonance of Fate.

Gloomhaven enemies actually move...

Correction: someone moves the enemies. Also someone has to keep track of the damage the enemies receive for moving into a trap.

You move the enemies based on the rules of the game, another player isn't determining enemy movement. And the video game for Gloomhaven [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFw_CBYWN4A] comes out this week and the enemies move themselves.