What I think Telltale needs to do to improve Walking Dead Season 3 (Season 2 spoilers)

[Ronald Nand]

So I recently finished Walking Dead Season 2 as my Uni Break just started last week, so I didn't get to post on the thread a while back.

I was happy with the story we got this season. At first it was a bit odd to me that they killed of Carver, who looked like the Big Bad for the season, in Episode 3.

But I liked what they gave us instead of that story line with Kenny's decent into madness after reliving the loss he suffered in Season 1, and focusing on Clementine's relationship with Jane, a big sister figure, and existing relationship with Kenny, a father figure. It was sad seeing Kenny fall into the darkness within himself and become more and more alienated to the group, to the point where he couldn't be redeemed.

I think the story line focusing on Clementine's relationships was a lot more interesting and emotionally impacting rather than giving us something cliche and similar to season 3 and 4 of the TV show with the Carver story line.

Anyway I think Telltale needs to do two things, to improve the difficult choices:

1. Have a penalty for Clementine whenever she takes physical risks:

Whenever the option came up to take a physical risk to helps someone I had no hesitation in taking it, whether it was running up to Carver and getting taken hostage in the Lodge or jumping in the Ice to help Luke, I knew that as the main character I couldn't die so I could take as many risks as I wanted. So I took all the options to hurt myself to protect others and the only penalty was some bruises on Clementine.

Telltale could implement a variable like 'Clementine's Stamina', taking risks like running up to Carver in the Lodge or staying in the trailer to get Sarah moving would deplete this value, and it would only recover partially when Clementine rested in the story. This variable would affect my ability to help people in the future choices, locking me out of options to save people, for instance maybe I couldn't jump in the ice to save Luke if I took to much damage in the previous episodes.

2. Actually have to story significantly change in response to our choices:

Choices weren't meaningless in the game, they changed what people said to you and how they felt about you. But It would be good if choices affected events themselves. In Season 1 every choice felt meaningful and that it would have a huge impact, but when we beat Season 1 most of us realised we still followed a critical path, our choices never deviated from that critical path too far.

So when you play Season 2, knowing that we're never going to deviate too far from the critical path affects decisions you make. For example in episode 2 when you have the choice to give yourself up or sneak away to Kenny. I chose to give my self up thinking that Carver would kill Carlos if I didn't, but part of that decision was made thinking that I was probably going to be captured anyway since being captured was part of the critical path.

Telltale needs to come up with some way to make our choices significant and work with the episodic content structure. Perhaps episode 3 could play out differently if we chose to give ourselves up or run away, we could have the start of the current episode 3 for the choice of giving ourselves up, and have a scene where Kenny, Clementine and Luke break into Carver's fortress at the start of Episode 3 and then episode 3 plays out normally if we ran away.


I still like Season 2, I thought it was on par with Season 1, they were both great, they just focusing on different ideas and characterization. However I think Telltale could make the tough decisions even harder with those changes.

So what are your thoughts on those suggestions and in Season 2 in general?

 

[tippy2k2]

I agree with what you said and I have one thing to add:

Make our mistakes punish us.

This is one thing that I take advantage of in the game all the time because I know that no matter what I choose, it's going to end the same anyway. Sarah fell down and needs help? Go ahead Jane, you've got plot armor and you'll be fine. Ben is hanging from the bell tower? Grab his ass Lee, you've got plot armor and you'll be fine. Lucas is stuck on the ice? Eh, do what you want, he's swimmin with the fishes no matter what you choose. This nice looking family can come right in, I mean, worst case is that they're bad but nothing bad will happen to use, we have plot armor!

I was hoping it was a bit of foreshadowing but I want something like Jane's story in the game ("Four people were killed trying to rescue that man hiding under the car. Turns out he was bitten"). I want Telltale to punish me for playing reckless and make me question everything I'm doing.

 

[Zhukov]

The problem with having choices effect events is that it drastically increases the amount of content they need to make. If there was just five major choices, one in each episode, could give radically different outcomes then the developers would have to produce at least three times the content. It's not really viable, especially for a small developer like Telltale.

Either that or the choices cause a slight deviation before the story gets back on track, but that has the same problem as choices having little effect and will rapidly begin to feel contrived.

I've always been fine with the minor choice effects. They tell me a story and my choices just add a bit of flavour. It also means I don't have to worry about missing out on the best content because I didn't make the choice that lets me see it.

 

[Ronald Nand]

snip

'Plot Armor' is a much more eloquent way to put what I said. Having our reckless behavior harm other survivors is another way to punish us for our reckless actions, perhaps the more risks you take the the more you need to be bailed out by the other survivors, as a result this will make them weaker and they could die in critical moments where they need their strength, either that or they get killed or permanently harmed (like losing an arm) bailing you out.

It'll make players really feel guilty when their reckless actions caused the death of another survivor.

snip

Yeah, this is a problem for any video game, whether its AAA or indie, the more choices the more content you have to make. Telltale could always do something where you have a branching path but you'll always come back to the critical events you'll experience regardless of choice.

Like what I said about episode 2, the choice to surrender or runaway changes how episode 3 starts, but the last third of the episode, the actual escape, remains the same. Kind of like the start of episode 2, where the situation changes depending on who you escaped with in episode 1. That's enough change for me.

 

[laggyteabag]

The problem with Telltale's (or anybody else creating an interactive story ie Bioware) way of telling stories is that no matter what choice you make, it will almost always end with the same outcome. Take Season 1 episode 2 for example. Kenny thinks that Larry is dead, and Lilly insists that he isnt.

You side with Kenny = Larry dies
You side with Lilly = Larry dies

Season 1, episode 5, Lee is bitten, and you need to do something about it.

You cut off your hand = Lee succumbs to his wounds via bloodloss and dies.
You keep your hand = Lee succumbs to his wounds via the bite and dies.

Season 2, episode 2 - Alvin's fate.

You convince Kenny to take the shot - Alvin is killed.
You convince Kenny not to take the shot - Alvin is removed very early in episode 3, and is killed shortly after.

Season 2, episode 4 - You have a choice as to whether or not you wait for Rebecca, or move out straight away

You leave straight away = Rebecca passes out and dies on the road, she turns and needs to be shot.
You wait a day = Rebecca passes out and dies on the road, she turns and needs to be shot.

The Walking Dead is very good at covering up it's illusion of choice, but it becomes very apparent during a second playthrough or if you read up on the outcomes of each episode. The problem with adding too many large variables into the mix is that they need to develop more content, and this can delay production massively; as a result, many choices result in minor changes such as additional dialogue or an appearance change, but they never result in something that will fundamentally change the plot. The rule of thumb of the Walking dead is that if a character's fate becomes determinate on the actions of the player, their input into the story falls drastically, and they are likely to be killed off later on to balance it out if they do survive. As a result of this, I would expect season 3 to begin in a very similar fashion no matter your decision at the end of season 2, and it would be likely that Kenny and Jane die early on or become otherwise unavailable (ie Christa style), alternatively, their roles could become identical in the story (ie Carly and Doug).

 

[Mikejames]

I hope they look back to season one's style of pacing and interaction for the third season. I liked a lot of the initial ideas for the group in season 2, but I find it hard to get attached to new characters when they're only given a few lines of dialogue before tragedy repeatedly strikes. The way half of the character arcs were dropped mid-season didn't really help matters.


As far as choices go, the series has always had clear linearity to it. The trick is making things Feel impactful, regardless of whether the final outcome's the same. i.e. Trying to help Larry felt important to me, because it changes several major relationships and characterizes where you stand in directing Clementine's morality.

Season 2 didn't really have that effect on me, because most relationships all round off in the same way (final choices aside). Rebecca becomes friendly whether or not you blackmail her, trying to help Sarah amounts to nothing, Kenny blames you regardless of your choice with Sarita, etc.

 

[The Goat Tsar]

I'm still pretty miffed about how they treated Nick. I manage to save the guy in episode 2 and then he gets all of 3 lines in the next episode. And in episode 4 he dies immediately off screen and it gets mentioned maybe once. At least Carly/Doug stuck around for longer and had some impact on the story. And when they got shot by Lilly that was a big deal. And if you saved Ben in episode 4 he has his epic explosion when Kenny keeps pushing him. But Nick just gets nothing.