When Did "Girls In Games" Become Such an Issue?

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Something Amyss

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Dec 3, 2008
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I'm really, really, really sorry to make another topic in the same sort of ballpark that's been going around of late, but I've been chatting with a couple of people on this topic, and decided maybe asking the title question on a gaming site wasn't a bad way of getting a feel.

See, I've been gaming for about 30 years now. My first console was a hand-me-down Odyssey II when I was about four or five. I graduated to more modern consoles not long after that. I understand that by the general forum standards, I'm oooooooold.

But here's the thing. Back in the 80s, almost every kid I knew had a gaming console, mostly the NES. There were a couple of Sega fans, but there was this sort of ubiquity that was going on, where just everyone had one. Even us poor kids. Granted, I say "poor" in a white, middle-class region and not an inner city project, but still. They were advertised everywhere and it wasn't just the boys who owned them. I could chalk this up to sample bias or confirmation bias, but I've still got old VHS tapes and comics and magazines where girls were featured in the ads for video games. Quite simply, even just a few years after the big NA crash, they were a hot ticket. Not a hot ticket for a specific gender, just a hot ticket. That's not to say that they were never marketed to boys, just that they weren't so exclusively marketed to boys.

I was less a gamer during the late 90s, playing mostly multiplayer games with friends when we got together, but I had a 35 hour a week job and school and extracurricular, and I mostly ditched the console and computer games. By the time I was a big media consumer again, the whole "girls in games" thing seemed to be cemented, but I recall thinking of it as basically a joke people said. I guess not, maybe, but like, I didn't particularly know why it would be a thing. But I guess it was a thing. It's just weird to me because it's suddenly treated like a new deal that there are girls playing games.

I've been speaking with a few people, a couple from here, all roughly my age. They all sort of remember the same thing to one extent or another, and some of them are girls who don't remember it being an issue that they were playing video games. It seems like something change, so I'm going to presume that's true and ask: what changed?

I can think of a few reasons, but they're guesses at best and I'd rather not contaminate the answer pool as it were.

For the record, I'm not trying to bust anyone's chops or get on a soapbox. I am just trying to suss out the whens and whys and whatnots of the situation. If I have somehow offended anyone with anything in this post, please take a deep breath and remember that this isn't my intent, and try and be civil. This isn't a polemic, it's a conversation. At least, that's the intent. I hope it worked out that way.
 

Starbird

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As far as I understand it, it's one of those things that nobody *really* thinks about that much or even cared about massively until people started jumping up and down about it. Oh, there have been a few very nasty incidents IRL at gaming tournies etc. but in games themselves...meh.

There are some valid points being made and I do see stronger female characters in all media as a good thing (simply by dint of offering a chance for originality, not necessarily from any sort of ideological standpoint). That said the drama and nastiness surrounding this issue is the only reason it's come into the spotlight this much.
 

shrekfan246

Not actually a Japanese pop star
May 26, 2011
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This is conspiracy theory-level conjecture and I have no evidence, but I think the general movement towards "realistic" graphics might have been part of it.

It changed the way games were marketed. Once things like Halo started dominating the market, advertising started becoming more and more "male"-centric. That combined with publishers looking at the success of Halo and saying "We need to get on that!" likely continued to move the perception of "gaming" more firmly into the "boy's club" territory.

I mean, I certainly think it's a relatively recent "thing". I'm still a young whippersnapper, but I don't remember a lot of "gendered" ads for games back in the 90s.

I also think part of the 'problem' just comes from new people growing up and coming into the community having experienced a decade of that kind of marketing. Culture shock, if you will. When I was in high school, there certainly weren't a lot of girls I knew who played (or at least talked about playing) video games. That was only four-eight years ago, and I wasn't even in a school where "nerds" like me were really picked on. So you've got a lot of people suddenly entering a large collection of internet communities having gone for the better part of their lives with little exposure to the fact that, hey, girls like games too.

I dunno, I'm probably wildly off base here, but I honestly think that the publishers and advertising companies were probably the biggest issue in the first place. I'll fully admit again to sounding like a complete conspiracy theorist nutter butter, though.
 

Greg White

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Sep 19, 2012
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The gist of it, from what I can tell, is that it started about the time that video games started to become mainstream. Gaming was, for the longest time, considered a guy thing, mostly owing to marketing being targeted at the teenaged male demographic, and a very vocal minority seems to be convinced that they are the only ones who were meant to play them, or some such nonsense, because they played games before they were 'cool.'

Sadly there is still a great deal of toxicity, be it from lack of social skills or outright hate, but the end result is the same. We have a few idiots making everyone else associated with them look bad, and only a few things to do make them shut up.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Greg White said:
The gist of it, from what I can tell, is that it started about the time that video games started to become mainstream. Gaming was, for the longest time, considered a guy thing, mostly owing to marketing being targeted at the teenaged male demographic, and a very vocal minority seems to be convinced that they are the only ones who were meant to play them, or some such nonsense, because they played games before they were 'cool.'

Sadly there is still a great deal of toxicity, be it from lack of social skills or outright hate, but the end result is the same. We have a few idiots making everyone else associated with them look bad, and only a few things to do make them shut up.
Yeah pretty much this. Once gaming went mainstream a lot more eyes fell on it, and the content of those games came under broader criticism. It went from a fringe/enthusiast hobby to mass market entertainment, with all the benefits and pitfalls that entails.

The vast majority of people probably aren't even aware that this controversy, such at is, even exists. I'm the very MODEL of a life time gaming enthusiast, and if I didn't stop by forums...this one in particular...I'd be utterly oblivious to the entire scandal. I wasn't even aware of Dickwolves until like 8 months after it had all died off, and I check in on Penny Arcade weekly.

For all the Sturm und Drang on the subject in here, it's really just the growing pains of an industry moving through its adolescence.

Not The Bees said:
Maybe instead of wanting to separate everyone into groups, gamers here, journalists there, D&D people there, comic book geeks here, we should make them all sit at a damn table and just hang out. Play a game of Munchkin, have a beer, eat some pizza, and relax. Maybe we should be wanting them to be friends. Maybe the fact that we're not all friends is the reason that the rift happened in the first place. Or maybe we should just sit down and play some damn Mario Kart and laugh about old times again (well, old times for me at least).
I find it particularly sad that "geekdom", such as it is, once a place where social outcasts or the chronically awkward could find a sense of community and belonging, has now turned into a preening, bullying clique where you need X credentials to claim membership.

Also, aren't you like 25? You are not old. You moaning about your advanced years is positively insulting to a decrepit old fossil like myself. Don't make me throw my vitamins at you.
 

briankoontz

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May 17, 2010
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When I was growing up (the 1980s) zero females in my awareness played video games. I knew lots of boys with sisters and none of those sisters ever touched a video game. When people would get together to play video games it would be 100% males.

It wasn't even some kind of boys club - girls weren't disallowed, but they never asked to play and we never thought to ask them. Girls had no interest and we thought nothing of it.

This has changed slowly over time as gaming has become more popular, and it's very very real the backlash against "fake girl gamers" and "fake girl geeks". As we long time gamers know, males have been on this scene far longer and are ostensibly the "real" gamers.

Likewise, examine the hacker movement which gave birth to the gamer movement. There were ZERO female hackers (back in the day). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackers:_Heroes_of_the_Computer_Revolution. There were just a few early women in the industry, like Roberta Williams, who stood out for their gender.

There are a lot of possible reasons for this. Gaming is largely about control - control of the mechanics, control of the content, control, domination, and exploitation of the system - one can argue that games (at least as they are traditionally designed) are masculine at their core. There's also the issue of personal hygiene - both hacker culture and gamer culture in the early days were known for a lack of it - I don't know a single socially-accepted woman who manages to consistently avoid personal hygiene, while society is more lenient with men. This lack of personal hygiene was viewed within the hacker and early gamer culture as an outcome of discipline and dedication, but it had the side effect of repelling women.

Take a look at popular Twitch channels - lots of speedrunning and esports - in other words about mastering games. In my experience men are more inclined to desire to master things.

In the early days women maybe were hoping that gaming would go away - maybe it was just a fad. After a while their attitude switched to "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" and began playing games, and their participation has steadily increased up to the present day.

There are lots of modern people, both men and women, who are not "true" geeks. They are in it for the money and/or the social acceptance. Back in the day there was no money and even less social acceptance (in society at large), so everyone was there for the love of it.
 

Darth Rosenberg

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Oct 25, 2011
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My admittedly rather general answer would be: when people started to realise things were a little skewed. Gender representation is a tricky issue, but it's one society/culture/gaming needs to address.

Videogames - as an industry and a medium - have begun to truly be taken seriously as art and entertainment in the last gen or so, and that brings with it a more critical gaze from those within and those outside the industry, and deservedly so.

No one really cared when [Amiga cult classic] Dreamweb featured cuss words, nudity, and fairly graphic violence. It was a gameplay-lite top down adventure game, and it didn't really make any waves. Now, especially if it was a triple-A release? More people would be paying attention, and amongst them would be critics looking harder at its themes and use of violence/sex.

So the feminist angle became relevant when every other angle became more relevant. I see it as progress. Or growing pains... either way, I strongly believe it's for the best, even if those beholden to the status quo are having trouble sharing their medium.
 

Guerilla

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Sep 7, 2014
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It wasn't an issue until 4-5 years ago. The industry was growing and it had already started to include many women and honestly noone gave a shit. It became an issue when feminists started creeping in the industry and started the gender war bullshit they ALWAYS start everywhere they go. They basically segregated gamers between the oppressive and the oppressed and then suddenly women in gaming became a big issue because feminists shined a huge spotlight on them basically screaming "YOU SEE THEM? WE REPRESENT THEM BECAUSE YOU'VE OPPRESSED THEM". I know plenty of women who hate this kind of attention especially from people they never asked to "protect" them.
 

Phasmal

Sailor Jupiter Woman
Jun 10, 2011
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To be honest, the funniest thing is that I'm not even sure which issue about girls in gaming you're talking about, because we've got so many!

So I'll just say this, I've been gaming since before I can remember. I don't ever remember thinking it was a `boys thing`. As I grew up, I did have more boy friends interested in gaming, but I had more boy friends in general so I didn't notice.

I used to hear things like `Wow, I've never met a girl who played games before` and I'd be like `Okay. Now you have. So what?`*.

I discovered by accident that being a guy on the internet gets you listened to more in games. Spent a few years as a guy.

Tried being a girl again. It kinda sucks sometimes. But hey, if you're a guy online girls are invisible, if you're yourself online you have to be an example of ALL FEMALE GAMERS.

I hate being treated like a newcomer in my own hobby. Especially by people younger than me who think they own the damn place.

*Going back to this- why do I still hear this? What the fuck do I care if when you were growing up you didn't know any girl gamers? It's not our duty to move in next door to you so you can see we exist. I'm not sure what this point is supposed to accomplish.
 

Phasmal

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Jun 10, 2011
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EDIT: Oh wow my edit became a double post.


 

Agayek

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Oct 23, 2008
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Phasmal said:
But hey, if you're a guy online girls are invisible, if you're yourself online you have to be an example of ALL FEMALE GAMERS.
Honest question: What are you trying to say here? It's confusing me, specifically the bit about girls are invisible to guys online. Is "girls" there a typo for "you"? Cuz that's the only way I can think of to make sense of it.

Assuming that's the case, yeah it's kinda retarded. Double standards are a thing that really needs to go away.

Phasmal said:
*Going back to this- why do I still hear this? What the fuck do I care if when you were growing up you didn't know any girl gamers? It's not our duty to move in next door to you so you can see we exist. I'm not sure what this point is supposed to accomplish.
Eh, stupid figure of speech is stupid, go figure. In my experience, the general rule of thumb when people say stuff like that is that it's meant to be a kind of joke or icebreaker remarking on the supposed rarity (e.g. "You mean they make those?!"). It's stupid, but I've seen worse ways to try and make/continue conversation.
 

Guerilla

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GamingBlaze said:
What issue?There are plenty of gaming girls,the problem is that the AAA industry does'nt cater to them.
The AAA games industry doesn't cater to them because women are usually not that interested in AAA genres. There's a crapload of catering to them in genres that women like.
 

Phasmal

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Jun 10, 2011
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Agayek said:
Phasmal said:
But hey, if you're a guy online girls are invisible, if you're yourself online you have to be an example of ALL FEMALE GAMERS.
Honest question: What are you trying to say here? It's confusing me, specifically the bit about girls are invisible to guys online. Is "girls" there a typo for "you"? Cuz that's the only way I can think of to make sense of it.

Assuming that's the case, yeah it's kinda retarded. Double standards are a thing that really needs to go away.
Nope. Okay, to explain- I spent a few years as a guy online. You would not believe how many times I've been told (as a guy) that girls who play games don't exist. Or if we do how we don't really mean it/are fat/are desperate spotty bitches.

I don't mean me, I mean girls. I'm not the only one who came up with the `pretend to be a guy` trick.

EDIT: That's what I meant by `as a guy` - as a girl pretending to be a guy.
Agayek said:
Phasmal said:
*Going back to this- why do I still hear this? What the fuck do I care if when you were growing up you didn't know any girl gamers? It's not our duty to move in next door to you so you can see we exist. I'm not sure what this point is supposed to accomplish.
Eh, stupid figure of speech is stupid, go figure. In my experience, the general rule of thumb when people say stuff like that is that it's meant to be a kind of joke or icebreaker remarking on the supposed rarity (e.g. "You mean they make those?!"). It's stupid, but I've seen worse ways to try and make/continue conversation.
I'd agree if there wasn't an example of this in this very thread. I've heard this completely seriously, and still do.
 

Guerilla

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GamingBlaze said:
Guerilla said:
GamingBlaze said:
What issue?There are plenty of gaming girls,the problem is that the AAA industry does'nt cater to them.
The AAA games industry doesn't cater to them because women are usually not that interested in AAA genres. There's a crapload of catering to them in genres that women are interested in.
I slightly disagree with that,from personal exerience I've seen and interacted with ladies that played shooters and the like.They exist but the AAA industry does'nt pay them any attention.
I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm saying there aren't that many. The industry like all industries pays more attention to the majority because it's practical.
 

Agayek

Ravenous Gormandizer
Oct 23, 2008
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Phasmal said:
Nope. Okay, to explain- I spent a few years as a guy online. You would not believe how many times I've been told (as a guy) that girls who play games don't exist. Or if we do how we don't really mean it/are fat/are desperate spotty bitches.

I don't mean me, I mean girls. I'm not the only one who came up with the `pretend to be a guy` trick.

EDIT: That's what I meant by `as a guy` - as a girl pretending to be a guy.
Ahhhh that makes sense. The only time I've seen attitudes like that (that I can remember anyway) is when it's presented jokingly (most commonly, in the old "The Internet: Where men are men, women are men, and children are FBI"). It's somewhat distressing that that's actually still a thing. It doesn't surprise me, sadly enough, but it's distressing.

Phasmal said:
I'd agree if there wasn't an example of this in this very thread. I've heard this completely seriously, and still do.
I'll bow to your vastly greater experience. I guess stupid is as stupid does then. Not much anyone can do but shake their head and sigh at it.