Where should the line be drawn in gaming morality?

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h@wke

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May 2, 2011
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*Disclaimer: these ramblings contain very minor spoiler to the 6th season of Dexter

So I was watching last weeks' Dexter the other day and in the show, the video game designing intern was showing dexter (who, if you don't watch, is a secret serial killer who kills other killers) his game he was designing. The unique feature of this game is that you can play as some famous serial killers throughout history. Dexter immediately goes 'this is offensive why would you want to?'(for no obvious reason all thing considered) to which the intern gets very defensive and says "but it's a vicarious thrill"

Now I thought it was pretty Ironic how the concept was made to look, seeing as the show Dexter is in part a vicarious thrill itself, for seeing the world through the eyes of a serial killer. I instantly thought how you'd never get such a game published and if it somehow was, there would be a huge outcry in the media. Yet this stuff is all over the TV and in films.


What I'm getting at is, what is it about games that makes controversial content so . . . controversial? Is it something to do with the active role the audience have, or because games are for kids if you ask certain people?

what think you escapist?


P.S I don't actually want to play such a game myself, nor would I want certain wierdos I know to have it either,but it got me thinking nevertheless
 

Honey Badger

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Dec 2, 2011
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Morality is pretty subjective, and it's one of those things that changes with time. My opinion is that Hollywood in general tends to get away with a lot more, going as far as including full out rape scenes and nudity, because the viewpoint seem to be that you as the audience have no direct control over what goes on in the movie and feel disconnected from the main character as the story progresses. Now a good movie can draw you in but the farthest you'd get is an emotional attachment to the charachters their goals, and in the end you're still just an audience. Videogames however, have the ability to give you a certian degreee of control over the enviroment. This can range from allowing you to make moral decisions in an open world, down to how you build your character in an rpg. The point is that that you are more responsible for the actions of the in game character, and you're the one making the calls. The feeling you get watching ten bad guys get shot down in a movie differs greatly from the feeling of acomplishment you'd get if you were the one to shoot down that many people in CoD.
I guess the overall viewpoint for games is that some choices should not be put in the hands of the player, because the player is then held responsible for the decisions they made.
A good example of this would be the guy who collected all those female heads in skyrim and put them on display throughout his house, along with their dicapitated bodies. Although it's all part of the game mechanics, just the fact that he decided to do all that in the game had some youtube veiwers calling him a psychopath, creepy wierdo, etc. The point is that his actions ingame were used by some as a sort of measuring tool for his mental well being.
I take it that's why Bethesda never makes children npcs killable; although some might view it as all being in good fun, others may see it as a sick child murdering simulator because somehow simulated violence between adults is more acceptable in todays society.
Againt this is all just my view point and I really have nothing to back it up with.
 

Mark Chipperfield

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Jan 17, 2011
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Games put you the gamer in shoes of the killer/criminal. If you are watching some film with some criminal act, you are only watching it. In games you are simulating yourself doing it. Thinking about it I would say games allow us to play the evil side of us who wants to kill.

As far as controversy sex in games I can't think why it is so controversial, probably because as you said, children are playing these games.
 

Laser Priest

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Mar 24, 2011
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Frankly, I think if we're going to borderline offensive, we might as well zip past it and head to total absurdity.

Run around as the zombie of Martin Luther King Jr. and beat orphans with the spinal column that you just ripped out of a nun.
 

The Harkinator

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Jun 2, 2010
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Games are interactive. While those who watch Dexter are passive, they have no part to play, people who play games are (as you say) active.

Games are not just for kids, they are for a huge spectrum of people from many areas of society. But the whole 'games are for kids' is a convenient stick to beat the medium with. Since there are people who agree with that sentiment they can expect some support.

Also, video games are an easy target for the media right now, so they can come under fire easily. A news show on TV won't tell you to stop watching TV, and the movies are more closely linked with TV.
 

Dramerc

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Feb 14, 2011
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there is no true morality no right or wrong nothing is just or unjust nothing is unholy or holy it is all in the eyes of the beholder that each person can view things differently
 

Mark Chipperfield

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Dramerc said:
there is no true morality no right or wrong nothing is just or unjust nothing is unholy or holy it is all in the eyes of the beholder that each person can view things differently
Well if you truly want to live in a state of anarchy then you will suffer from it. Morality is there for a reason, so that we can live our lives without being harmed.
 

Ordinaryundone

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To be fair, I think that scene was meant to be played more for laughs at the irony of a serial killer being upset that you could play as a serial killer than for making any actual message on morality (like the episode where Dexter entertains the idea of being a "superhero" because he kills bad people). If anything, playing as a serial killer would be a rather tame "shock" attempt, in comparison to games like Manhunt and Condemned, or any RPG that lets you indiscriminately kill people. Unless they went with the whole "Fully interactive torture!" route or something, in which case yeah, that would be pretty messed up.
 

Dramerc

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Mark Chipperfield said:
Dramerc said:
there is no true morality no right or wrong nothing is just or unjust nothing is unholy or holy it is all in the eyes of the beholder that each person can view things differently
Well if you truly want to live in a state of anarchy then you will suffer from it. Morality is there for a reason, so that we can live our lives without being harmed.
no i'm competely against anarchy but when it comes to certain things we as a people dont like to admit it like racism and sexism is in the same boat as morality but whenever its brought up its always its bad and no one ever sees anything because no one will learn when you hate something and ban something it will become a dead section of life we should be allowed to discuss racism and sexism and even the hate against gays and other religions (i hate the PC terms) it should be allowed or we will never over come it something in your eyes such as sending someone to jail could be completely wrong in someone elses thats what i was meaning to say

OT: the morals for video games should show everything that is for what we as a people are lets say in a game someone kills your loved one in that game you most likely kill them by sword or gun shot not a real thing most people would love to do inrl i hope most would like a very dark revenge attack with torture and finally death but truthfully no one can see the things they dont want to like mass effect 1....sex sim thing a side boob you got side boobs all hell broke lose still
 

Mark Chipperfield

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Tenno said:
there shouldnt be a line, morality is subjective, people should be free to make any game with any content they want, and if your dont like it dont play it, its that simple
The thing is that people will always want to control others views and morality.
 

Jessta

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Feb 8, 2011
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probably because the objective of a game is to make you the player, to really put you in their shoes and help you become them, and some people will bring the philosophic views of the characters in the game with them. but then again same thing goes for any story that follows a single protagonist.

The people who are complaining about video games are still seeing them as just games, something that little kids play when the adults are at work. Clearly theirs a huge difference between something like pac-man or tetris from something like Dues Ex Machina or Skyrim yet they are still put under the same label and thus its pretty easy for people who don't actually spend the time to explore the depths of these games to imagine them as little trinkets made to waste time when there's nothing to do.

Also its kind of funny how if Dexter had been given that game was a child to vent his psychological need to inflict death and pain on things he might not have turned to venting it out on real living creatures and real living people.
 

Woodsey

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Necromancer Jim said:
Frankly, I think if we're going to borderline offensive, we might as well zip past it and head to total absurdity.

Run around as the zombie of Martin Luther King Jr. and beat orphans with the spinal column that you just ripped out of a nun.
You sick bastard - killings KIDS?! Are you insane?! But yeah, the rest sounds cool.

Mark Chipperfield said:
Dramerc said:
there is no true morality no right or wrong nothing is just or unjust nothing is unholy or holy it is all in the eyes of the beholder that each person can view things differently
Well if you truly want to live in a state of anarchy then you will suffer from it. Morality is there for a reason, so that we can live our lives without being harmed.
No, that's what the law is there for. Morality can be influenced, but you can't just tell people what their morals are. Luckily, most people's morality tends to be relatively similar (and sane).
 

dudeman0001

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Tenno said:
there shouldnt be a line, morality is subjective, people should be free to make any game with any content they want, and if your dont like it dont play it, its that simple
Agreed, except this doesn't just boil down to video games. As long as the option not to listen is available, people should be able to express any ideas they want. Even if something someone says is confrontational or "offensive" they should have the right to say it, since argument stimulates thought and gets people involved. However people shouldn't WANT to say things for the soul perpose of invoking hostility or keeping people down, which leads me to my next point.

If anyone really DOES have malicious ideals/intentions, they shoud be able to share their ugly thoughts with the world! We can't set them straight with our words if their views are kept hidden from us.

Censorship is the practice of organized ignorance.
 

Toriver

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Jan 25, 2010
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On the whole "games are for kids" thing, I think there's fault to be found both inside and outside the gaming "community" for that perception.

Outside gaming, we all know who to blame: the crusaders and parents who instantly think games like Saint's Row or CoD are as much "for kids" as Mario and Kirby, and then get shocked and appalled when their 10 year old is screaming slurs and obscenities into a mic at a stranger on the other side of the country while beating a hooker to death with a giant purple "object". They don't bother to look at the box of any game past a cursory glance or notice the rating stamped on it and buy it for their kid anyway, or they just give their kid money and let them buy whatever they want. Nine times out of ten it'll be the M-rated game because they understand the rating system better than their parents and they know that's the game "for grown-ups". Of course, there's a bit of fault with the kid for manipulating their parents, and further fault with the parents for giving in to the kid, too.

But there's some fault with the industry and the community as well, for blurring the lines, if you will, in terms of what is for kids or adults, not being very good at making our case against ignorant parties, and turning into a selfish, exclusive clique.

On the third point (the clique thing), MovieBob makes that point well in two of his videos: Game Overthinker Ep. 59 "Bat-Slap" and The Big Picture "Words for Nerds". To add to what he says, I'd like to say that we can't expect those ignorant people to even want to try "our games" if we spend all our time trash-talking them when we're not gaming. If we sit there and act as holier-than-thou about games as we think they act, and then demand they see our point and play our games, in abbreviated words it comes across as us saying to them "Shut up and play this, then leave us alone, you lowlife piece of shit scum." Who would want to give credence to a group that acts like we do towards them?

And that brings me to point 2: if we want to be seen as more mature, we have to act more mature in how we respond to ignorance. While a minority of crusaders against gaming do so because they just hate games, a lot of people do it because they are genuinely concerned about the access children have to Mature games. That's what leads to things like the now-dead California bill and the Australia ban. The problem is that when arguing against those kinds of things, we craft all our arguments as if we're talking to Jack Thompson (who just hates games) rather than Leland Yee (a member of the "Think of the children" crowd). We get so wrapped up in defending the medium in general from the extreme minority of detractors of games that we lose sight of the concerns of people who just don't want kids playing M-rated games, and we never address how to go about alleviating those concerns without banning games. What I mean is, the way we make many of our arguments makes us look like we want kids to play these games, even if it's not true at all. For example, I don't think many people on "our side" of the California debate made it clear that the methods, not the goal, of the law were what gamers were really protesting, and that makes us come across as immature. It certainly doesn't help when we fill our arguments with crude humor and ad-hominem insults, either. Seriously, putting a dick joke in a legal argument is NOT mature. But anyway, people like Yee want the industry to do more to keep adult games out of children's hands, and if we agree that kids should not be playing those games, we have to make that clear to them when discussing it, rather than getting rude and vulgar and dismissing them entirely. Proposing an alternate solution would help. One such compromise I see here in Japan is organizing games in stores by rating without a "back room" for adult games, and some stores keeping 18+ rated games in a still-visible case so that people can see it but have to specifically ask the cashier for the game if they want it. No confusion there!

For my last point, the blurring of the lines, what I mean is, look at how games tell stories and how they're advertised. Many of us want games to be seen as an art form worthy of telling powerful stories and conveying profound messages that could truly be called mature. In the sea of games that have tried, the successes have been few and far between. Often games end up getting their message lost in other more entertaining aspects of the game, or the attempt was there but the message itself was quite shallow, or the conveyance of that message was executed poorly. When a game does succeed, rare as it is, how is it usually advertised? You know. BIG-ASS GUNS (or swords)! BIG-ASS EXPLOSIONS (or dragons)! BIG, HOT ASSES! Does that look very mature to you? That's a 13 year old boy's idea of maturity, because that's who the game is being advertised to. If we want to be taken seriously and get people to stop thinking games are just for kids, we have to stop targeting kids, even teenagers, in marketing campaigns for adult games. If a game wants to be taken seriously for truly mature themes, and not just violence and sex, the publisher needs to present the game in a way that will get that point across. One other thing to point out is that the PS3 and 360 are flooded with M-rated games dedicated to this adolescent idea of maturity being all about an overload of sex and violence in the media they enjoy. Which is OK: those kinds of games are good fun. Just don't expect anyone to take us seriously for holding them up as examples of quality in the medium.

So that's my diagnosis of gaming being "for kids". It's as much "our" fault as "theirs".