Why aren't there more actual role-playing games?

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Jun 16, 2010
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In a video game context, RPGs are now so synonymous with leveling and loot that the original/literal meaning of the term has pretty much been 100% supplanted. But it's not just the term that has dropped from the collective consciousness.

Multiplayer games almost universally allot players one of two roles: adversary or cooperative partner. There might be some superficial differences (e.g. healer vs tank), but ultimately everyone's goals are simplistic ("defeat the bad guys") and getting into your role is hardly encouraged ("just do the thing and don't ask why").

Why aren't there ever any multiplayer games that give you a fascinating character to play, with complex motivations and gameplay that rewards you for investing in your role? Am I alone in pining for something like that?

A dream game of mine would have all the players control characters waking up on a mysterious island, where you need to work together to survive. But each character has their own backstory, skillset and agendas: one man is trying to find his lost daughter; a soldier is trying to recover all the dog tags of his massacred platoon; one woman is a morally bankrupt scientist who needs to keep the little girl she's been experimenting on hidden; a pilot needs to repair his plane and rescue as many people as possible; a spy is trying to murder everyone to keep the island secret, but needs the plane fixed first so he can escape with some documents, etc. These character-agenda combinations could be rolled randomly so each game is distinct and the narrative emerges differently.

The gameplay would necessitate that you forge alliances to survive. I'm envisioning something like the open-world survival gameplay of DayZ crossed with the "you always need an ally nearby or you're screwed" mechanics of Left 4 Dead, but with less running-and-gunning and more running-and-hiding. The backstory/agenda system then encourages you to play in a way that enriches everyone's experience, rather than everyone just deciding to shoot on sight.


This isn't a thread about my game ideas though, I'm just wondering why something like this hasn't ever really been done. It seems like the RPG genre was originally based on pen-and-paper games, but the spirit of imagination and collaborative storytelling was swiftly discarded, and nobody has ever really gone back for it.

Just imagine all the fantastic multiplayer games you could make by leveraging/inspiring people's imaginations, rather than just having them mindlessly shoot at each other.
 

SajuukKhar

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James Joseph Emerald said:
Why aren't there ever any multiplayer games that give you a fascinating character to play, with complex motivations and gameplay that rewards you for investing in your role? Am I alone in pining for something like that?
Because RPGs have never been about that?

even the D&D board game was only "make a character, set his stats, use those stats to raid dungeons and fight monsters" not "live out a realistic life"

You are confusing RPGs with simulators like... the Sims.
 

Exterminas

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Because roleplaying is about different people making different choices.

Modern games are about investing resources during developement in the most efficient way.

So creating the branching stories and multiple paths that many people may not ever see in your game has become hugely uneconomic.

In my personal opinion, the term 'RPG' when applied to games has devolved a lot over the recent years. Take for example the original Neverwinter Nights. That had a few significant choices that you could make. Morrowind to a certain extend too.

But today when you talk about a game being an RPG you basically means "This game has talent trees."
 
Jun 16, 2010
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Exterminas said:
So creating the branching stories and multiple paths that many people may not ever see in your game has become hugely uneconomic.
That may be true of a linear, single-player game. But I'm talking about a multiplayer open-world game designed to be played over and over again, where the branching story is created organically through player interaction.

A bit like one of those murder mystery party games where everyone plays a suspect and have to deduce who the murderer is, but using computers to make it a lot more fluid and reactive.
 

raeior

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Well there is stuff like Ultima Online which allows you to be a fulltime carpenter or something like that without ever thinking about slaying monsters. There are (were?) also a lot of freeshards for it some of which put the main focus towards roleplaying and less on the engine "slay monsters" side of things.

SajuukKhar said:
Because RPGs have never been about that?
That is not really true. It might be for D&D but in systems like Dark Eye you could just as well play a farmer or the mayor of a town or whatever and roleplay your way on from there. Granted it might not be very interesting in the long run but the system fully supports this with relevant skills and rules for stuff like managing a town or producing goods.
 

Exterminas

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James Joseph Emerald said:
Exterminas said:
So creating the branching stories and multiple paths that many people may not ever see in your game has become hugely uneconomic.
That may be true of a linear, single-player game. But I'm talking about a multiplayer open-world game designed to be played over and over again, where the branching story is created organically through player interaction.

A bit like one of those murder mystery party games where everyone plays a suspect and have to deduce who the murderer is, but using computers to make it a lot more fluid and reactive.
Oh, alright. Then my answer is this:
Because you can not / don't have to develope that stuff. It can and has to be created by the players.

There are roleplaying communities in pretty much every major MMO, though the size and degree of lewdness varies from game to game. Devs can do certain things to support ingame-roleplaying, but ultimately they can not create it.
 

Aiddon_v1legacy

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because the only way to do that is through procedural generation; and those kind of games have EXTREMELY paper-thin plots, if any plot at all. The point of a pen and paper RPG is still to tell a story at the end of the day and you really need dramatic arcs, twists, supporting characters, all that. Procedural generation isn't to that level yet because things would just turn into a mess. The closest thing you will get is with games that have modding tools like Neverwinter Nights or Shadowrun Returns.
 

Johnny Novgorod

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Because it's hard to keep a story consistent when you're literally making it up as you go, I suppose. I guess games like Heavy Rain or Walking Dead offer a selection of twists every now and then but I've never heard them being called RPGs.
 

StriderShinryu

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Really it sort of boils down to "RPGs are hard."

Creating the sort of branching, immersive and, most importantly, open ended game that would be closest to a true RPG is something that would take a ton of time and money with no real guarantee that there would be any sort of pay off. Big games these days already take years and in some cases hundreds of millions of dollars to make and they are largely trending towards either shorter linear experiences or open world sandboxes as is.

Now, I'm not saying I wouldn't also enjoy to play a totally immersive, in character "true" RPG, but to expect one is rather unrealistic.

Really, the closest thing you're going to find to a "true" RPG in my opinion and experience is an MMO. It's not perfect, but at least finding a good community in one will allow you tap into the sort of personal story telling within a digital world without relying on developers to create it entirely for you.
 

WhiteTigerShiro

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James Joseph Emerald said:
Exterminas said:
So creating the branching stories and multiple paths that many people may not ever see in your game has become hugely uneconomic.
That may be true of a linear, single-player game. But I'm talking about a multiplayer open-world game designed to be played over and over again, where the branching story is created organically through player interaction.
People have talked about that, and the answer is because the stories would have to be hyper bland in order to make any sense. Shamus goes into detail about it [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/columns/experienced-points/10168-Procedural-Stories] in his column, and even Yahtzee briefly mentioned the notion of a "procedural story" that can be connected in any order in his Diablo 3 review [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/5777-Diablo-3]. The consensus is basically the same: You can't have an interesting story without specifically crafting it from beginning to end.
 

Zhukov

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Because story really doesn't work in a multiplayer environment.

Kinda impossible to get into the swing of a ripping good yarn when one of your friends is bunny-hopping around the room spamming the voice emotes and another is complaining over the mic about how his girlfriend doesn't give head the way she used to.

Your idea could work fine from a gameplay perspective though.

There's actually a game out there called Town of Salem which is kind of what you described, although with a much different gameplay model to what you're imagining. There's a town with about 20 inhabitants, each has a different ability and a win condition. Most people do not know what role and objective anyone else has, so distrust is the name of the game. During the day you talk to other town members in a chat box and vote on who to lynch. During the night your can use whatever your skill is. Each morning the dead are counted and the survivors try and to figure out who's responsible. There's no narrative role play element though.
 
Jun 16, 2010
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Exterminas said:
Oh, alright. Then my answer is this:
Because you can not / don't have to develope that stuff. It can and has to be created by the players.
Aiddon said:
because the only way to do that is through procedural generation; and those kind of games have EXTREMELY paper-thin plots, if any plot at all.
That's true to a certain extent, but I can think of hundreds of ways you could enhance the experience and encourage role-playing. Many RP servers operate in spite of an MMO's mechanics, rather than in synergy with them.
Additionally, providing specific constraints, I find, can be even more entertaining than leaving people to entirely use their imaginations. The emphasis is more about the stories/situations that emerge from playing the game, rather than sitting down and writing out a whole big backstory yourself and then trying to act it out.

Consider this:

You spawn as The Spy. Your objective is to kill everyone as subtly as you can to avoid detection (not hard to code). Another player is The Father, searching for his daughter (also not hard to code). You stumble across a minefield and barely escape. Later you meet The Father, but by then he has a shotgun and you've got nothing but a sharp stick. You realise you'll never defeat him, so you pretend to have seen his daughter hiding in a bush nearby, which is in the middle of the minefield. When he goes to look, he triggers a mine and blows his leg off, and you loot his shotgun. But unbeknownst to you, he manages to survive by wrapping a tourniquet around his leg, swearing vengeance.

You later meet The Pilot, whom you realise you need to coerce into helping you escape. You hold him at gunpoint and march him back to his plane, but The Father has anticipated this and got there first on horseback. A gun battle ensues, but is interrupted when The Scientist arrives in a jeep along with The Daughter, hoping The Pilot will help them escape. You threaten to gun down The Daughter unless everyone surrenders to you, but while you're distracted The Pilot runs away. So you kill The Daughter and retreat, leaving both The Father and The Scientist with nothing left but to band together in mutual hatred and hunt you down.


That entire tale and a hundred other variations could be facilitated with some pretty simple procedural algorithms.

EDIT:
Specifically...
[li]Procedural character spawn points & personal objectives[/li]
[li]Procedural environmental hazards (e.g. minefield)[/li]
[li]Daughter NPC AI[/li]
[li]Basic combat[/li]
[li]Basic driving[/li]
[li]Communication system[/li]

That's all you'd really need for that particular scenario.
Of course, a system that monitors how players are doing and adjusts the difficulty of their environment around them to keep things 'dramatic' would make things even better, and wouldn't be as hard as you might think.
 

Smooth Operator

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RPG(or computer RPG) is the name of the genre, not it's description.

What you are describing there OP is a group of people who agree to play pretend, that is just called RP. You can take that role-play into any tabletop, larping, chatroom, or multiplayer games but it always hangs on all the people who make things up as they go along, nothing can actually be set in mechanics because then people can't play their role as they wanted.
And the downside of this is you always need a great group of actors for it to be a cohesive quality story, which most people will not find.

Which is why we got CRPGs, where developers put together self contained quality worlds/stories any player can follow and enjoy. And this sadly does mean things need to be based on rigid rules, because we are not at the point where AI can mimic a person in complex social situations.
 

Aiddon_v1legacy

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WhiteTigerShiro said:
James Joseph Emerald said:
Exterminas said:
So creating the branching stories and multiple paths that many people may not ever see in your game has become hugely uneconomic.
That may be true of a linear, single-player game. But I'm talking about a multiplayer open-world game designed to be played over and over again, where the branching story is created organically through player interaction.
People have talked about that, and the answer is because the stories would have to be hyper bland in order to make any sense. Shamus goes into detail about it [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/columns/experienced-points/10168-Procedural-Stories] in his column, and even Yahtzee briefly mentioned the notion of a "procedural story" that can be connected in any order in his Diablo 3 review [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/5777-Diablo-3]. The consensus is basically the same: You can't have an interesting story without specifically crafting it from beginning to end.
Precisely; when you leave it to the computer then everything just becomes bland. It KINDA works for dungeons, but even that comes at the price of decent level design. Story is NOT something you should leave up to the RNG, especially since at the end of the day you're just picking from broad scenarios anyway.
 

madwarper

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Smooth Operator said:
Which is why we got CRPGs, where developers put together self contained quality worlds/stories any player can follow and enjoy. And this sadly does mean things need to be based on rigid rules, because we are not at the point where AI can mimic a person in complex social situations.
This.

@OP; If you want to role-play, do table top. Find a DM that can craft a narrative, listen to your reasoning as to how your character would react to a given scenario, then modify the narrative to allow your character to take those actions. A video game will never be able to replicate that.
 

Gennadios

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I can't help but feel that a large portion of this thread seems to equate "writing" with "fun". I personally think way too many resources in AAA gaming are being devoted to people that just wouldn't be considered talented writers in any other medium and aren't all that integral to gaming.

For example, I put alot more effort into saving my faceless, easily replaceable crew in FTL. They were little randomly generated critters, but I had a bad habit of gimping myself in the long run by sacrificing my ship's hull integrity or prolonging fights simply because I took a guy off of repairing a shield generator to get him to a medbay.

Mass Effect? I was fond of the characters, but I never found myself re-fighting a battle just because I didn't like the fact that Garrus got incapacitated in that one shootout. He'd always get up at the end of the battle.

Just because the individual substories of a procedural game are paper thin doesn't mean the wider narrative can't be epic. There are simply more ways for individual events to intersect in a way that produces a more personalized feel for the player.
 

Canadamus Prime

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Because making a game like that would require a hell of a lot of time and money, possibly more than you could reasonably expect a video game company to spend.
 

Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

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Yeah, very few video game RPGs are actually RPGs. Stuff like Dark Souls, Final Fantasy, Diablo, etc. are not and have never been RPGs. Then, a game like Mass Effect comes along and it's called a shooter with RPG elements when the focus of the game is on the role-playing (the quality of said role-playing can be argued but you clearly spend less time shooting than anything else). An RPG's gameplay can be ANYTHING because role-playing has no inherent gameplay mechanics to it. A shooter can be an RPG, you can have an RPG platformer, etc. There's lots of things that an RPG doesn't need that people think it does like levels and loot. Once you hit max level (or say even start at max level) in DnD, does it cease being an RPG because you can't level anymore? Of course, it doesn't.

I think a multiplayer RPG would be awesome but I just don't see it working in an online environment with randoms. Or if the people that do indeed want that type of game are the only ones that buy it, then the game wouldn't nearly sell enough to be profitable. Most players in shooters don't even understand how to properly play a simple objective game mode. The Shadow Hunters card game and the Battlestar Galactica board game is great examples of good games with a rather basic premise like you're talking about.
 

RandV80

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Kind of a hard thing to discuss because you'll have a dozen explanations for what an 'RPG' is. By the literal term it could be pretty much anything, but the practical term doesn't really have much to do with actual 'role-play'.

But if you're talking about RPG's being in a state of grindy loot-fests, thank Blizzard for that one. Between Diablo and WoW they mastered the simplistic pleasure of grinding and acquiring loot, with games that outsold the competition and ushered in a hoard of imitators.