Why aren't there more female directors?

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Fox12

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Jun 6, 2013
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There has been a lot of talk about women in gaming, about representation in gaming, and about the number of female protagonists in gaming. The simplest answer to these problems is that, if we get more women in gaming, then better written female characters will emerge. Now, I like this idea, but it got me thinking... why aren't there more female directors in Hollywood?

Wracking my brain, the only one I can think of is the director of Zero Dark Thirty. I never got the impression that hollywood was particularly sexist, and it's been a major entertainment industry for a long, long time. Long enough for there to be more women in charge. Literature and music don't have this problem. I would say most pop singers seem to be women, and there are numerous female authors who have written novels and poetry. Just look at Jane Austin. Heck, the best selling author of modern times is J.K. Rowling, and as much as I hate to say it, the fastest selling authors lately have been Stephanie Meyer and the lady who wrote 50 Shades of Grey. And yet, I can think of no female directors who are as popular or successful as Spielberg, Copola, Martin Scorsese, David Lynch, or other directors. I'm legitimately curious, do you think there's a reason for this disparity? Is it a cultural thing, a psychological thing, or a problem within the industry? Or is it that women just aren't interested in hollywood? If that's the case, then why?
 

DefunctTheory

Not So Defunct Now
Mar 30, 2010
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Hollywood is a big business, and has the same issues as other big businesses - its slow. When you stand to lose billions on a single product, you try and stick to what you know works, which leads to the problem insaninatar pointed out - an aging work force that's doing the same thing they've always done.

It is changing, though. A lot of the old brood have moved on, and I think one of the reasons that not many are complaining about the apparent sexism in hiring (There's plenty to discuss regarding the content on the products made) is that the big beast of Hollywood is already swinging towards all inclusiveness. It's just taking forever. You can already see the increase in female participation at places like Sundance.

And from this year...

Endless Love - Shana Feste
Step Up: All In - Trish Sie
Beyond the Lights - Gina Prince-Bythewood
Unbroken - Angelina Jolie

...

Well, shit. I guess this is pretty depressing.

Guess that kind of takes my initial point, takes it out back, and shoots it in the head, doesn't it?
 

Johnny Novgorod

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Feb 9, 2012
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I can tell you it's mostly a Hollywood thing. None of the major film studios were founded by women, nor have they ever been owned or presided by women. The industry is based on an incredibly old-fashioned system that has carried over incredibly old-fashioned rules, largely due to the "in-breeding" of owners and CEOs. Female directors are usually found in the indie industry. And that came out like a Pokedex blurb, which is kind of depressing.

Anyway, step out of the US and most countries have a pretty even ratio when it comes to male-female directors. In Argentina it's practically 50-50.
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
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there are a number of female directors but not exactly high profile

I think I read somewhere that in the indie scene they are very prevalent but go further into the mainstream..not so much

I'd say its not a stretch to say Hollywood is hard to break into...if not a boys club
Fox12 said:
. Literature and music don't have this problem. I would say most pop singers seem to be women
pop singers...to me a just one cog in the record label machine, sometimes I imagine they have a say but other times..I dunno if I wanna be cynical they'd be replacable with a vocaloid were the technology good enough (and if it were the case that would be a record studios wet dream)

Grimes who is a sort of indie/electronic singer (not sure if she produces) once wrote about her frustrations with sexism and condecention

all that said there have been many female artists not just in the poppyest realms of pop...

[quote/]I'm legitimately curious, do you think there's a reason for this disparity? Is it a cultural thing, a psychological thing, or a problem within the industry? Or is it that women just aren't interested in hollywood? If that's the case, then why?[/quote]

MABYE ITS EVOLUTIONARY PSYCHOLOGY REASONS BECAUSE WHEN MEN WEREN'T HUNTING THEY HAD TO OCUPY THEMSEVLES SO THEY MADE SHADOW PUPPET SHOWS WHICH WERE THE PRE-CURSOR TO FILMS

serious answer I'd say its a little of all
 

TheRiddler

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Sep 21, 2013
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Fox12 said:
Literature and music don't have this problem. I would say most pop singers seem to be women, and there are numerous female authors who have written novels and poetry.
I'd question the validity of the music point. Pop singing may be pretty female-friendly, but that's like saying that Hollywood has about as many actresses as actors, rather than paying attention to gender stats for Hollywood as a whole. For every pop musician, there's also record label execs, sound mixers and sales folks (who, I'd assume, are predominantly male).

Honestly, the reason books and music were so quick to shift is probably just because of the low cost of creation. Anyone can learn to play an instrument and dazzle crowds or pen a story that'll capture a generation. But making a movie that can compete with big-budget stuff? That takes more funds and know-how than most people have easy access to. And so the industry stays controlled by those who started off with funds and know-how: male directors backed by major companies.
 

Thaluikhain

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A lot of big institutions are reactionary, and dominated by cishet white guys, Hollywood isn't unusual in that.

Vault101 said:
[quote/]I'm legitimately curious, do you think there's a reason for this disparity? Is it a cultural thing, a psychological thing, or a problem within the industry? Or is it that women just aren't interested in hollywood? If that's the case, then why?
MABYE ITS EVOLUTIONARY PSYCHOLOGY REASONS BECAUSE WHEN MEN WEREN'T HUNTING THEY HAD TO OCUPY THEMSEVLES SO THEY MADE SHADOW PUPPET SHOWS WHICH WERE THE PRE-CURSOR TO FILMS[/quote]

:)
 

Eddie the head

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Feb 22, 2012
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I was reading a book talking about human sexuality in one of the chapters they talk about what role evolution plays in how the sexes interact. Basically we are the offspring of men who took chances, and well succeeded. Women could take chances, but there was no benefit to it so we're mostly the offspring of women who didn't take chances.


I could see that having an influence on things. If you play it safe you'll likely never be a big director. Really though it's not just one factor. I'm sure a grate deal of it is just sexism. Witch is one of the reasons I almost hesitate to say this. I'm worrying someone will see this and use if as justification for sexism.
 

Batou667

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Oct 5, 2011
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Vault101 said:
MABYE ITS EVOLUTIONARY PSYCHOLOGY REASONS BECAUSE WHEN MEN WEREN'T HUNTING THEY HAD TO OCUPY THEMSEVLES SO THEY MADE SHADOW PUPPET SHOWS WHICH WERE THE PRE-CURSOR TO FILMS
...and of course the equivalent counter-claim, which is that clearly women are studying and working in the film industry in exact equal proportion to men, and have equally good qualifications and experience, and the fact that so few directors are female is proof of the Patriarchy engineering a system where women have more barriers to entry than men do. The obvious course of action is to put some quota system in place and hire women preferentially to correct this imbalance.

My serious thoughts? We'll have more female directors when there are more women in the industry, and that won't happen overnight. As I say in every discussion like this, an inequity in representation isn't in itself proof of exclusion, discrimination, or whatever. Sure, it suggests some factor (or more likely, several factors) are at play, but to immediately conclude that foul play must be involved is very poor reasoning.
 

theNater

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Feb 11, 2011
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Batou667 said:
...and of course the equivalent counter-claim, which is that clearly women are studying and working in the film industry in exact equal proportion to men, and have equally good qualifications and experience, and the fact that so few directors are female is proof of the Patriarchy engineering a system where women have more barriers to entry than men do. The obvious course of action is to put some quota system in place and hire women preferentially to correct this imbalance.

My serious thoughts? We'll have more female directors when there are more women in the industry, and that won't happen overnight. As I say in every discussion like this, an inequity in representation isn't in itself proof of exclusion, discrimination, or whatever. Sure, it suggests some factor (or more likely, several factors) are at play, but to immediately conclude that foul play must be involved is very poor reasoning.
Male directors have, on average, more experience than female directors. This is in large part due to the fact that the male directors with the most experience got started before 1970. Using experience as a factor means incorporating social views that are 50 years out of date into one's decisions. If you're okay with that, that's fine, but I think it's important to be aware of it.

This will, of course, self-correct over time. But attempting to accelerate that correction isn't inherently a bad thing.
 

QuietlyListening

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I would say that it's largely due to the industry/system/culture being sexist. It's not that anyone actively wants to keep women out, or any direct foul play. It's just that absent of specific initiatives, it's easier for men to find work (thus helping with the positive feedback loop of building connections and experience), and it's easier for studios to hire men (precisely because of that prior connection and experience).

That's the tricky thing about representation in industry. Often the barriers are high already, and all of the little things that we don't think matter actually end up mattering quite a bit.
 

NeutralDrow

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Eddie the head said:
I was reading a book talking about human sexuality in one of the chapters they talk about what role evolution plays in how the sexes interact. Basically we are the offspring of men who took chances, and well succeeded. Women could take chances, but there was no benefit to it so we're mostly the offspring of women who didn't take chances.


I could see that having an influence on things. If you play it safe you'll likely never be a big director. Really though it's not just one factor. I'm sure a grate deal of it is just sexism. Witch is one of the reasons I almost hesitate to say this. I'm worrying someone will see this and use if as justification for sexism.
Don't worry. It's inevitable that someone has already used an argument like that as justification for sexism, but it's also bad science, so there's no harm done. Basically, the only way that could work is if "risk-taking" were some sort of specific gene located only on the y-chromosome, because that's the only genetic source that's (mostly) specific to men. And for that matter, it would have to be some kind of super-dominant gene, because it would have to somehow overwhelm the "safety first" x-chromosomes men get from their mothers.

Put another way, be wary of evolutionary explanations for sex-contrasted phenomena. Especially behavioral phenomena.
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
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insaninater said:
Honestly, I think the best way to sort this out is to let Hollywood crumble. I think it's already started, people are getting tired of a lot of the old staples Hollywood is putting out. Reboots are selling worse, the stupid action movie and stupid romantic comedy are being crushed by movies that can provide something original and intelligent, I wouldn't be surprised if Hollywood wasn't a thing by the time a generation passes.
this is also interesting considering new generations viewing habits, people still like movies but I suspect "kids these days" aren't big on paying for stuff

[quote/]An antiquated, behind the curb dinosaur, doing the same things over and over again, promoting old-time exclusivist morality[/quote]
like babez! babez fix everything if your a woman!

and disabled people make normal people feel good about themselves! unless its too real....then that's just uncomfortable (alright to be fair I can't recall any recent versions of this but still)
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
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insaninater said:
Yea, i think it has the potential to be a really amazing thing, i mean imagine if everyone got to "try before buy" all movies, shitty, misleading advertisement would get flushed out, people could see if something was good or bad before deciding to support this.

Of course, this kinda falls apart when you realize people are cheap and don't like paying for things unless they have to. Sigh.
yeah as much as people like to wax poetic about the spread of information and the whole "art for the sake of art" argument, the fact is as you said people in general do not pay for shit unless they absolutely have too and we (indirectly) seem to belive an artists time/skill isn't worth money

like the music industry is interesting in that its getting increasingly harder to actually make money off it, even for established artists...the line between product and service is blurred

its interesting to see how the amature/professional distinction might change in the future...part of the internet is the proliferation of mostly amateur media but then at the same time (for youtube videos) you could argue its become more commercialised. Porfessional artists have always been quite a minority anyway

personally as much as people hate the corporate machine at least its not all awful, the overwhelming slush pile that is self publishing is a testament to what happens when you open the floodgates

Of course! And if you're a successful, independent businesswoman, you couldn't POSSIBLY be content with being an intelligent, competent, productive, all around shining example to the community of how to be awesome. No, you require a love interest to be whole; Seriously, hollywood is fucked up.
BABEEEEEEEIIIIZZZZZZZZZZZZZ


[quote/]loosely relevant side note, one of the things that annoyed the hell out of me about the movie the heat was Sandra Bullock's character arch, at the beginning she kicked so much ass and was so awesome, and i was all "i would fucking follow you into the pits of hell, you're amazing!", but then she lets herself be pushed around by the other protagonist and the obligatory misogynist that realistically would have been fired a week into his job, and the management douchebags. It still bugs me that she had to compromise with anyone in that movie and that it wasn't just a movie about her being awesome.)[/quote]
I haven't seen miss congeniality but from what I can vaguely remember of the plots I think the sequel pisses me off more...

The heat in comparision is cool to me, she doesn't end up with a guy
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
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insaninater said:
There is something to be said about the babies thing though. You ever see idiocracy? The smart people not making babies is potentially a huge problem, so i do have a sort of existential fear that all the smart people are going to be outbred by the backwater, never-had-an-education idiots, and that the idiots will end up being the wild type in both genetics and culture.
I think this problem is a bit overstated people who live in better conditions and are better educated have less children

so increase living standards and access to education
 

liza01

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Oct 10, 2014
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in my opinion, it's still men that dominates the world today. But of course women are also doing their way to move up.!
 

KissingSunlight

Molotov Cocktails, Anyone?
Jul 3, 2013
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People who already have a bias when it comes to gender issues will use lack of successful female directors as another example of sexism. The truth is that the industry was founded by men. It's a tough business for new people, men or women, to break into and be successful. Ones who have done it have established themselves in a different area of the business like acting or became close to someone in the business that helped them out.