Why people give Obsidian a little to much credit (IMO)

[Saviordd1]

A lot of people (Especially on this forum) tend to love Obsidian's games, often saying they are the last people who know how to make a good story in an RPG or whatever, and how they are underrated.

Here's the thing, they're rated where they should be rated, in the B list.

Now, they don't have BAD games, not by any stretch of the imagination.

But the thing is their games are either
A: Built on a pre-built engine where a good amount of the work is done for them (KOTOR, NWN2, basically anything they're famous for)
B: Not all that great (Alpha Protocol, Dungeon Siege 3)

People often bring up in arguments how Obsidian managed to make the second game in many series better than the first, and make the story better and improve gameplay mechanics.

Well...yeah, they had an extremely solid foundation to do a little bit of building on.

But even with that advantage they STILL manage to release a game with as horrible bugs as New Vegas (And don't give me that "Bethesda was QA" crap, Obsidian was the one who looked at the finished product and said to Bethesda "Yes, ship it")

Basically that's my point, Obsidian gets way to much credit for what they do and while they do release games we need to stop seeing them for some super game messiah.

TL;DRObsidian is meh, the games they make are either built off of old games so it makes it easier for them OR are of extremely meh quality.

Side Note: Yes, I know that they have Eternity and Stick of Truth in the tubes, but that's not out yet to prove itself is it?

 

[Doom972]

Obsidian gets much of that credit for the games its founders made as Black Isle: Fallout 1 & 2, Icewind Dale 1 & 2, and mostly for Planescape: Torment.

Personally, I enjoyed every Obsidian game I played so far. Even though they had buggy releases and unfinished content, they were still great. NWN 2 and KOTOR 2 were very buggy and have much missing content (KOTOR 2 at least got fixed by fans), while Alpha Protocol and New Vegas were very buggy, but got fixed. I think that they are on the right path.

I'm not hyped for Project Eternity though. I would've liked to see them make another non-fantasy RPG.

 

[recruit00]

I think when it comes to Obsidian, it is mainly an issue of publishing. They always seem to get pushed by the publisher to get stuff out faster which leads to the huge amounts of bugs in their games like AP and FNV.

Also, my guess is that Stick of Truth will end up being a disgrace to RPGs and will be really dumbed down and not really that good. Also, it will be bugged out the ass. I guarantee it.

Also, I think one thing that people like about Obsidian is that they don't seem to have any "must make money" attitude. Each of their big games tends to have a goal of making a good RPG with story focus and well written background. They are one of the only companies that does that.

 

[WoW Killer]

So they're better at Game Design than they are at Software Engineering, basically. Surely not every game must be a show of technical expertise. I mean think of all the games made with engines by Valve or id. Speaking of which, id are like the exact opposite; some of the best Software Engineers in the world, but bloody awful at making games. I just think it's probably best for the industry to have both sides of the coin.

It's like when you've got a singer that doesn't write their own songs. Sure, I can respect someone a lot more when they're also a writer, but I can still say someone's a good singer if they're, y'know, a good singer. At the end of the day, Obsidian are damn good at Game Design.

 

[The Madman]

I like them because they write good characters and tend to put an interesting twist on any established setting they are given to work with. They're also one of very few developers out there with any skill whatsoever when it comes to writing basic dialogue, an issue which continues to frustrate and annoy me. Pretty much any self proclaimed person of good taste will laugh at Twilight for its cheesy hammy dialogue and terrible trite story, yet Twilight is about on par if not slightly better than the common fare in video games.

Seriously pathetic. Why do so many people just ignore this issue?

So that's why I like Obsidian. They're also one of few major developers out there with any interest in doing things 'old school' style when it comes to gameplay, which I appreciate. Genuinely can't wait for Project Eternity.

As for bugs and such, yeah, it's sometimes rough. I do however think their reputation for games being of that nature is undeserved. From my limited experience New Vegas was no more (Or less) buggy on launch than Fallout 3 itself, same with Neverwinter Nights which is something a lot of fans tend to forget. That game barely even worked on launch. Meanwhile other games like Dungeon Siege 3 or expansions like Mask of the Betrayer are pretty much without glitches or issues.

 

[recruit00]

I like them because they write good characters and tend to put an interesting twist on any established setting they are given to work with. They're also one of very few developers out there with any skill whatsoever when it comes to writing basic dialogue, an issue which continues to frustrate and annoy me. Pretty much any self proclaimed person of good taste will laugh at Twilight for its cheesy hammy dialogue and terrible trite story, yet Twilight is about on par if not slightly better than the common fare in video games.

Seriously pathetic. Why do so many people just ignore this issue?

So that's why I like Obsidian. They're also one of few major developers out there with any interest in doing things 'old school' style when it comes to gameplay, which I appreciate. Genuinely can't wait for Project Eternity.

As for bugs and such, yeah, it's sometimes rough. I do however think their reputation for games being of that nature is undeserved. From my limited experience New Vegas was no more (Or less) buggy on launch than Fallout 3 itself, same with Neverwinter Nights which is something a lot of fans tend to forget. That game barely even worked on launch. Meanwhile other games like Dungeon Siege 3 or expansions like Mask of the Betrayer are pretty much without glitches or issues.

I didn't really try Baldur's Gate but from what little I played of it, I think it was because I did not care for AD&D. If the game was Pathfinder or 3.5 based, I would be more interested. I just don't like how clunky second edition is.

 

[The Madman]

I didn't really try Baldur's Gate but from what little I played of it, I think it was because I did not care for AD&D. If the game was Pathfinder or 3.5 based, I would be more interested. I just don't like how clunky second edition is.

Obsidian doesn't have much if anything really to do with Baldur's Gate. Black Isle was used as publisher for the BG games but they had little to nothing to do with the development of the series, that was all Bioware. Why do you mention Baldur's Gate? Or did you mean in context with Project Eternity and my tastes for semi old fashioned pc rpg? Because if so I imagine its a personal taste. I love isometric tactical combat, it's so much more rewarding than any other means of rpg combat I've ever experienced. I enjoy a game that challenges my mind in both a tactical sense for battle as well as a more narrative sense with elements of roleplaying.

NWN2 is a pile of dog shit, and Kotor 2 is just simply not as engrossing as the original in any way. Sure, sure, its an opinion. Sure.

People tend to forget that Neverwinter Nights was a bug ridden mess on release as well, it's only two expansions and multiple patches later that we got the experience we have today. The default campaign in NWN is also terrible, like genuinely and objectively terrible, so unless you were buying it for the multiplayer NWN was crushingly disappointing on release...

I should know, I bought it when it first came out. Day one even! Want me to take a picture of the box? It's on the shelf right next to me.

So having been drawn into buying the game on the lure of Biowares previous singleplayer experiences; Baldur's Gate for example, and having no real interest in the multiplayer, you can imagine my feelings at the time. Oh sure NWN eventually more than redeemed itself but on release it was a disappointing mess for many fans.

NWN2 by contrast at least had a pretty fun singleplayer. Not great, but easily superior to that of NWN or Shadows of Undrentide. Meanwhile just like NWN it too has blossomed with a fantastic expansion which is easily the highpoint of the entire NWN franchise in terms of singleplayer content and a plethora of amazing fan modules. So all this hate of NWN2... well, it's just silly.

I never understand when NWN2 is brought up as some black stain for Obsidian, especially in the many inevitable 'Bioware vs. Obsidian' topics that always pop up across internet forums.

 

[daveman247]

I think obsidian are great. They just need a second dev to check over them or do the actual coding I think they'd be better as a writing/ ideas department.

 

[The Madman]

I just want to grab you by the collar and ... have an engaging and lively discussion with you while drinking some tea and eating m&ms. GRRRR.

Honestly I havent been back to NWN2 since the original released, and never having played the first game Im a little bit contextually disoriented. So maybe Im not being entirely fair to it, however I stand by my position that the original campaign is just a mess of a game.

I want to add that there is just something about polygonal crpgs that just doesnt sit right with me. They just feel wrong, give me the isometric icewind dales or baldurs gates any day. The original dragon age is certainly an exception to that paradigm

If you're ever in Alberta Canada I'd be happy to buy lunch sometime.

And I actually agree with you to an extent. I defended NWN2 there, but overall I still find the actual gameplay at best mediocre. Same with the original NWN for that matter, which had a better feel to it in terms of controls but suffered by only letting you ever control one character at a time. I'd take a decent isometric rpg over either. Temple of Elemental Evil is probably my favourite rpg in terms of gameplay, pity the story and rpg mechanics were somewhat lacking by comparison. Gameplay however was fantastic!

Oh what I'd give for more games to have been built using that engine.

Incidentally give NWN2 another try. Mask of the Betrayer, its first expansion, is easily the high point of the entire franchise in terms of singleplayer content and as for fan modules what it lacks in quantity compared to the first it makes up for in quality. There are some amazing NWN2 mods out there! Two expansions and a library of patches later the game runs and plays much smoother as well. I've been told the multiplayer is not nearly as good in 2 as in 1 however, but as previously established that's not really something I'm interested in. Still for fairness sake it's worth mentioning. So while Neverwinter Nights 2 will never be perfect in terms of 'western rpg' I still think NWN2 can hold its head high and with pride.

Catchy soundtrack too:

 

[shrimpcel]

As far as I'm concerned KOTOR II was horrible compared to the original. So yes I agree with the OP.

 

[Christopher Fisher]

Oh, wow; you mean all these huge, often open world RPGs that Obsidian have made had bugs in them!? My god, who would have thought that? God damn people, cynicism coming out your asses.

 

[T'Generalissimo]

I think Project Eternity will be the final, decisive piece of evidence on whether Obsidian keeps getting screwed by their publisher or they're just bad at polishing/QA.

As to why some people (me included) rate them so highly; I don't think you'll find anyone who thinks they've ever released a flawless game, they're always broken and bad in some capacity, but the things that they excel at are so rare in the industry that for people that value those things, they far outweigh the negatives of their games. I would not advise buying their games on release and I always get them on PC so I can mod out some of the brokeness, but I don't know what other major developer I would turn to for old-school RPG sensibilities and consistently good writing. Their games aren't well polished or technically excellent, but I can find hundreds of games that are well polished, technically excellent and completely uninspired and uninteresting. That's just not what I'm looking for when I choose to play an Obsidian game.

A: Built on a pre-built engine where a good amount of the work is done for them (KOTOR, NWN2, basically anything they're famous for)

You say that like it's an easy thing to do. Yeah, they have a solid foundation of the engine and some of the assets to start from, but the vast majority of series go completely down the shitter when the property is handed over to another developer.

 

[WoW Killer]

Kinda pissed that they decided to go RtwP instead of turn based in Project Eternity. Especially being as how they have Tim Cain now, and he's the man behind ToEE and a big TB guy.

I've always found the pausable-realtime thing a bit hit and miss. I like it a lot less when I'm controlling multiple characters; I never got through all of NWN2 for this. I was fine with KotOR II as you don't need to micromanage your followers all that much, if at all. The original NWN was probably my favourite of that sort of genre, as you can watch over the one hero and play it in full real time.

So yeah, with the group-combat emphasis they've been talking about in P:E, I think I'd probably have prefered a full turn-based system.

 

[The Madman]

Ill have to check out temple, Ive heard about that one on and off but never got around to it. Ive also heard a lot of good about mask of the betrayer, but my prejudice against nwn2 prevented me from trying it...maybe Ill give it a shot when I have time.

This is kind of random, but have you ever been to Toronto? I'd love to hear an Albertian opinion on Toronto. Im just weird and random like that. Is it true what they say, that everyone in canada hates toronto?

Both are worth giving a try, if for completely opposite reasons. Mask of the Betrayer is a fantastic story with mediocre gameplay and Temple of Elemental evil is a mediocre story with fantastic gameplay, both entertaining in their own way.

As for Toronto, that's a bit off topic but yes, I've been there. No, I don't hate it. Everywhere has its stereotypes though. People like to mock Toronto as the wannabe stuck up New York of Canada, meanwhile everyone in Toronto likes to mock Alberta in general as the wannabe hick Texas. BC are druggies, Newfies are weird, Montreal is rude, and no one lives in Saskatchewan except the former cast of Corner Gas. Meanwhile we all ride Polar Bear to work being lumberjacks, live in Igloo, have mounties, and eat syrup and 'Canadian bacon' all day every day.

Canadian stereotypes, gotta love em!

 

[SillyBear]

Fallout New Vegas is my favourite game of all time, but I still agree with you. All Obsidian did was polish. They didn't have to build much from the ground up.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

I think Project Eternity will be the final, decisive piece of evidence on whether Obsidian keeps getting screwed by their publisher or they're just bad at polishing/QA.

As to why some people (me included) rate them so highly; I don't think you'll find anyone who thinks they've ever released a flawless game, they're always broken and bad in some capacity, but the things that they excel at are so rare in the industry that for people that value those things, they far outweigh the negatives of their games. I would not advise buying their games on release and I always get them on PC so I can mod out some of the brokeness, but I don't know what other major developer I would turn to for old-school RPG sensibilities and consistently good writing. Their games aren't well polished or technically excellent, but I can find hundreds of games that are well polished, technically excellent and completely uninspired and uninteresting. That's just not what I'm looking for when I choose to play an Obsidian game.

A: Built on a pre-built engine where a good amount of the work is done for them (KOTOR, NWN2, basically anything they're famous for)

You say that like it's an easy thing to do. Yeah, they have a solid foundation of the engine and some of the assets to start from, but the vast majority of series go completely down the shitter when the property is handed over to another developer.

yeah gotta agree with this, osbidian has a certain nack for what they do, and it's extremely rare.

if i'm looking for a technically sound game, there are dump truck loads of them piling out by other devs/publishers, and even then i only play those games once while obsidian games i usually replay bare minimum 5-6+ times and mod the hell out of them. I often feel like they are making the game for the sake of making a game because they love it, not because they are doing it as a greedy business decision (not saying publishers/devs are wrong for that reason, just saying i appreciate obsidian because they always seems to go for what they WANT to do, not what will gain them the most profit).

the ole saying always works with me:

"shit games can be polished many times over, but they are still shit. Great games can be broken, but can be fixed into master pieces in time"

not to mention i'm bloody excited as hell for project eternity, and the stick of truth (partially because i love south park and the creators, but with obsidian behind it i think it'll be great. Probably not a traditional rpg but with their own twist to it.)

 

[Ed130 The Vanguard]

So they're better at Game Design than they are at Software Engineering, basically. Surely not every game must be a show of technical expertise. I mean think of all the games made with engines by Valve or id. Speaking of which, id are like the exact opposite; some of the best Software Engineers in the world, but bloody awful at making games. I just think it's probably best for the industry to have both sides of the coin.

It's like when you've got a singer that doesn't write their own songs. Sure, I can respect someone a lot more when they're also a writer, but I can still say someone's a good singer if they're, y'know, a good singer. At the end of the day, Obsidian are damn good at Game Design.

Bingo.

When I get into a Obsidian game I know I'll get some bugs, but I also know I'll get a pretty story out of it.