Winners don't do rpg elements

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Pizzarand

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....or the "least necessary rpg elements"-Thread

Adding rpg elements to a game can benefit it immensely. Players can be constantly rewarded by bein given Experience points, which then can be used to buy good, meaningful upgrades, that enhance the gaming experience. This can add an additional layer of diversive gameplay, letting the player choose what ability of their character to increase and also make him feel like he's accomplishing something by gaining more and more power compared to where they started off from.

This is not the thread for those games. This thread is for games with rpg elements that either add nothing to or actively distract from the game you're playing. Basically games that would have been better off not having any of those systems in the first place. I'll start:

Darksiders 2
Darksiders(1) was a God of War clone. In it you murdered monsters, acquired a set of subweopons and special attacks etc. You could also explore the world and find hidden chests, in which were health upgrades, money or if you were lucky upgrades for your weapon. All of this was fine. So where does Darkksiders 2 differentiate? It's not the upgrade system(which is fine), it's with the chests. Because now instead of finding predetermined goodies, the loot is randomised. You can find different weapons, like sccythes or gauntlets or swords and armor, all of which have random stats and can be found in different tiers (white,green,blue,orange). If you like to use swords and have just fought your way through an optional dungeon only for the big chest at the end to spew out an orange Axe, you're screwed as chests don't respawn and you're stuck with the axe for the rest of the game. This system does nothing but restrict the player to using the best weapon he has at the time, thus limiting their playstyle options. It also opens up the possibility of chests containing nothing of worth to the player at all and cluttering the inventory with useless items. A system like its predecessor, where every weapon was balanced to be as good as every other one and Chestst ALWAYS contained something of use, would have been leaner, sleaker and more beneficial for the player.

So, with that out of the way, what kind of games have you played, where rpg elements didn't help the game at all?
 

Johnny Novgorod

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Haven't played either Darksides but from what I'm reading your "RPG elements" boil down to "randomized loot". Surely you're oversimplifying the concept?
 

KarmaTheAlligator

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Minecraft. The levels are there just for the enchantments, and since those are randomly chosen, it gets very obnoxious when you can't get what you want.
 

sageoftruth

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I remember playing Castlevania: Symphony of the Night. Fun at first, and could have been a great action game, but halfway though, without any active grinding, I was taking 1 hp damage from bosses. The leveling system literally stripped the challenge from the game. The game could have been much much better if they kept the items, and random drops, but scrapped the leveling.
 

sageoftruth

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In any game with level scaling, that's pretty much how I feel about the leveling system.
 

Foolery

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Darksiders felt more like Zelda to me. Get a new item, use that item to take on the dungeon and boss, allowing you progress to the next area. Even some of War's movements reminded me of Ocarina of Time, climbing vines and so on. I liked it. Nothing was random, the dungeons were well-designed.

The sequel was more like Diablo with it's randomized loot system. Hated it.

I don't have a problem with RPG bits, so long as they're properly thought out.
 

Pizzarand

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Johnny Novgorod said:
Haven't played either Darksides but from what I'm reading your "RPG elements" boil down to "randomized loot". Surely you're oversimplifying the concept?
To me, rpg elements mean mechanics typically found in rpgs. This includes things like leveling systems, character stats, the aforementioned randomized loot and experience points.
Also, I want to point out, that I'm not trying to argue that rpg elements are inherently bad, that'd be silly. Rather this thread is for people to list games where these elements don't accomplish anything and a different approach would have been better. Darksiders 2 is just the only game i could think of where this really stuck out to me.

Thinking about this now, I propably should have chosen a different title.
 

AmberSword

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Pizzarand said:
Funnily enough, I just played Darksiders 2 moments ago, though I never do it more than an hour or 2 at a time, the game just can't keep me interested.

I'd say Darksiders 1 did it right, sure it tore a page out of everyone's book (even portal) and pasted it together hoping for 10/10, but it still did its job, it was a focused action packed adventure slasher with a passable narrative. It managed to hold my interest throughout the game.

What I felt they should have done with the sequel, was fine tune the formula, and in doing that, accomplish the goal of giving the series an identity of its own. The original felt like it gave you too many gimmick mechanics that weren't utilized enough, they were also very seldom used in combination. Now its been awhile since I played that, but I do recall a time slowing mechanic being "THE THING" in the desert level, but it gets forgotten after that. Then we have boss fights based entirely around one single gimmick, Straga being the prime anti-climatic example.

Instead we got this, now I'm not saying its bad, but you did point out the flaws of the system really well. What I think you forgot to mention was that not only does the game have very RPG like elements, it also does a terrible job at actually explaining these elements. What does life on hit work? Does Crit stack? What about elemental damage? Does feeding a possessed/orange weapon something awesome give it unique properties? What determines the next upgrade I get from feeding such a weapon? SO many more questions that I just didn't bother with it anymore and YOLO'd the game for 1 or 2 hours at a time.

Also, you didn't mention that besides finding useless loot, its also possible to find completely overpowered loot that trivializes the next few levels, this simply doesn't belong in a game like this.

Edit: While we are at it, I think I need to mention that our new friend Death is Death in name only, I expected more from the personification of DEATH itself. His character barely fits his name, and gameplay wise he's basically an Agile War. Problem is, War's whole theme is exactly what it says on the tin, so hacking and slashing and destroying things is to be expected. I thought Death would have some interesting and unique mechanics for being the Grim Reaper, guess I was wrong.
 

loa

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Every moba ever.
They all need to have leveling, most times on top of accruing money to buy items for a secondary stat growth, so basically 2 kinds of leveling so don't you dare to stop grinding in your lane for a second or you'll be behind in stats.

Why?

Why can we not get to have team fortress 2 the moba?
Are last hitting and snowballing really that much fun?
Is the minimum 30 minutes of being glued to one game a genre requirement?
Why can mobas not seem to evolve past dota which only had experience levels and items because warcraft 3 had levelable heroes with inventories?
 

sageoftruth

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How could I forget? Far Cry 3 multiplayer. Putting a leveling system in there simply unbalanced the game, since you could only access certain equipment when you had played long enough to reach a certain level. I guess that goes for all modern multiplayer shooters nowadays.
 

The Random Critic

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So many multi-player do the level unlock thing now it's like a cult. (And you can't blame them, the rat needs it's cookies)

Rpg element doesn't really describe what is begin added really, I would call it progression/reward system personally. But then, I'm just arguing "semantics".
 

TheMigrantSoldier

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sageoftruth said:
I remember playing Castlevania: Symphony of the Night. Fun at first, and could have been a great action game, but halfway though, without any active grinding, I was taking 1 hp damage from bosses. The leveling system literally stripped the challenge from the game. The game could have been much much better if they kept the items, and random drops, but scrapped the leveling.
Symphony of the Night hasn't really aged well. After playing the GBA and DS games, it feels like a beta test for the RPG-ish, exploration-based Castlevanias.

OoE nails down the difficulty nicely, on the other hand.
 

TT Kairen

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loa said:
Every moba ever.
They all need to have leveling, most times on top of accruing money to buy items for a secondary stat growth, so basically 2 kinds of leveling so don't you dare to stop grinding in your lane for a second or you'll be behind in stats.

Why?

Why can we not get to have team fortress 2 the moba?
Are last hitting and snowballing really that much fun?
Is the minimum 30 minutes of being glued to one game a genre requirement?
Why can mobas not seem to evolve past dota which only had experience levels and items because warcraft 3 had levelable heroes with inventories?
Then you want to play Blizzard's Heroes of the Storm. Leveling for abilities, but no last hitting, money, or items at all. Just go out and kick each other's ass.
 

Smooth Operator

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Well I disagree on the Darksiders being a GoW clone (despite appearances), because it's not actually a spectacle fighter like GoW, Darksiders is really an action RPG and those RPG elements are where they should be.

I will agree however that the randomized loot in Darksiders 2 was done poorly, devs you still need to keep loot proportional to the challenge/importance, not have the lowest of grunts drop top tier items and bosses/hidden chests possibly drop scrap. And you do not ever start dropping duplicate items, that shit just creates extra annoying inventory cleaning busy work.

Where RPG elements are absolute bullshit is competitive multiplayer. "You didn't yet grind 100+ hours to unlock all the good gear? Well tough shit buddy because you are going up against everyone who has... enjoy."
Don't fucking do that devs.